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CORRECTED COPY Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Scott Chatfield asked:
"A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?"

A search of the online Virginia Tech Norfolk Southern Collection turned up two Class BL boxcar images:

A check of the July 1935 ORER turns up the car series N&W 67000-67999, 791 cars, 40 ft 6 in IL, 9 ft 1 in IH, 10 ft door opening.  This series in the January 1940 ORER is occupied by 31 ft IL, 11 ft height of top chord above rail twin hoppers as the Class BL boxcars were rebuilt to Class SK stock cars in the mid-1930s.

The first photo, N&W 67332 is of the cars as built; the second photo, N&W 67910, is of the cars with a new steel-sheathed roof.  A search of the N&W Historical Society online archive turned up a general arrangement drawing of Class SK, which shows a radial roof and 7/8 Murphy ends.  My educated guess is that it's the same radial roof used for the Class BK USRA SS boxcars (N&W 120000-120799) as modeled by Westerfield kit 3365.

As far as I know, no kits have been offered.  The quick and dirty approach would be to used the Tichy model with their #3058 7/8 end and the NERS/SSCo. auxiliary door conversion parts as a starting point for the cars as built as the car height is the same.  The cars with the upgraded steel radial roofs would be more challenging; you would either have to scratchbuild a roof for the Tichy model or use Westerfield 3365 as a starting point (which would give you the roof) and replace the ends (a bit more challenging with this kit as it features a one-piece body).

However, the fly in the ointment is the spacing of the truss members.  Note that the "panel" to the left of the door opening is slightly narrower, and the one to the right of the door opening is slightly wider.  This is not as easily corrected; my recommendation is to use a Westerfield 7201 CP USRA "clone" flat kit as a starting point (as it also gives you the 7/8 Murphy ends), cut out the two "panels" in question and splice in new scratchbuilt "panels", and scratchbuild the radial roof if you're doing a later car.


Ben Hom
Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

Bill Welch
 

Most likely two of their Express Reefers in freight service for whatever reason at the time.

Bill Welch
Re: N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Scott Chatfield asked:
"A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?"

A search of the online Virginia Tech Norfolk Southern Collection turned up two Class BL boxcar images:

A check of the July 1935 ORER turns up the car series N&W 67000-67999, 791 cars, 40 ft 6 in IL, 9 ft 1 in IH, 10 ft door opening.  This series in the January 1940 ORER is occupied by 31 ft IL, 11 ft height of top chord above rail twin hoppers as the Class BL boxcars were rebuilt to Class SK stock cars in the mid-1930s.

The first photo, N&W 67332 is of the cars as built; the second photo, N&W 67910, is of the cars with a new steel-sheathed roof.  A search of the N&W Historical Society online archive turned up a general arrangement drawing of Class SK, which shows a radial roof and 7/8 Murphy ends.  My educated guess is that it's the same radial roof used for the Class BK USRA SS boxcars as modeled by Westerfield kit 3365.

As far as I know, no kits have been offered.  The quick and dirty approach would be to used the Tichy model with their #3058 7/8 end and the NERS/SSCo. auxiliary door conversion parts as a starting point for the cars as built as the car height is the same.  The cars with the upgraded steel radial roofs would be more challenging; you would either have to scratchbuild a roof for the Tichy model or use Westerfield 3365 as a starting point (which would give you the roof) and replace the ends (a bit more challenging with this kit as it features a one-piece body).

However, the fly in the ointment is the spacing of the truss members.  Note that the "panel" to the left of the door opening is slightly narrower, and the one to the right of the door opening is slightly wider.  This is not as easily corrected; my recommendation is to use a Westerfield 7201 CP USRA "clone" flat kit as a starting point (as it also gives you the 7/8 Murphy ends), cut out the two "panels" in question and splice in new "scratchbuilt" panels, and scratchbuild the radial roof if you're doing a later car.


Ben Hom
Re: N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Brent Greer
 


I've been intending to do such a conversion myself one of these days.  My original plan was to use the westerfield N&W class BK kit as a starting point and add a half door kit from New England Rail Services.  Need to fabricate a door stop for the left side and the additional door track and hardware for that side as well, but should be a pretty straightforward conversion.

Thanks,
Brent
Dr. J. Brent Greer

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 5:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] N&W BL and BLa boxcars
 
A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?


Scott Chatfield
N&W BL and BLa boxcars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?


Scott Chatfield
WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

spsalso
 
Edited

I was just poking around in early WFEX history, in the ORER's.

In both my January 1939 and my April 1941, I found these two cars, listed as freight reefers, not express.  They are interesting, I think.

OL                    50'-8"
IL                      44'

EXH                 17'-3 5/16"  

Door width      4'
Door height     10'-6"

Cu Ft               3848

Capy                80,000



I did a quick search on this list and on the GN one, and found nothing.

The cars do not appear in my July 1945 ORER, though there ARE other interesting nominal 50 footers.

Any thoughts on these giants?



Ed

Edward Sutorik
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tony Thompson
 

I wrote:
  Richard Hendrickson did the same to get some durable bracket-mount grabs. I still have a couple dozen of his parts, very nice brass. Don't know what reject rate occurred.
Dennis Storzek replied: 
Those may well be my parts, I intended to sell part of the run to recoup some of my cost, but when Richard heard about it, he bought all I wanted to sell.

          Likely true. He described the process by which they were made, but didn't ever say, that I recall, that HE had gotten it done.
          The parts are lovely. I am slowly using them.

Tony Thompson
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tony Thompson
 

Paul Woods wrote:

I am greatly insulted by your tone and it appears that you have not put any thought into your comment.  Seriously? 

       Yes, I was blunt. Not any thought? How's your tone yourself?

You are trying to tell us that ALL the metal in a casting cools to freezing point at exactly the same moment?  

      No, I didn't, nor does it matter.

the metal might eventually shrink equally, but not all at the same time because cooling happens from the outside in, and this can be used to our advantage. 

      Ah, you do know that it shrinks equally. This discussion began with the question of how much lost-wax patterns are made oversize to account for this shrinkage. It most certainly IS the entire shrinkage that is relevant to this topic.

....as a metallurgist you should be aware of the high density of metals such as steel and brass, and thus the pressure that will be exerted that can keep pushing semi-molten metal down towards the bottom of a mould when it is cooled slowly enough

     Mold filling is NOT the issue: important, of course, but not the issue here. So on this point, what you say is entirely true, but irrelevant.

Tony Thompson
Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Missing Car? AC&F 10K high-walkway tank car.


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:50 AM Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:
Missing car  ?  A Magor 70 ton side dump car. Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:05 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Not to mention the UNION TANK CAR UTLX X-1 tank cars!! AAARGH!

:-D


On 4/5/2020 2:31 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
> All-
> Why do an interchange freight car prototype that had a hundred or less examples?
> Have we completely run out of missed cars with broader multi road application?
> I don’t think we have many production single sheathed door and a half box cars and many of them had very long service lives and numbered in the thousands on many lines...and went all over.
> Charlie Vlk
>
> Don’t be fooled by the Lionel  F3 syndrome-  while a great railroad with attractive equipment, nothing else sells like it without Warbonnet paint....ATSF freight units sell about the same as high middle other roads.  Even a ATSF layout might not “need” a scarce car that was quickly obsoleted.


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?

Armand Premo
 

Missing car  ?  A Magor 70 ton side dump car. Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:05 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Not to mention the UNION TANK CAR UTLX X-1 tank cars!! AAARGH!

:-D


On 4/5/2020 2:31 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
> All-
> Why do an interchange freight car prototype that had a hundred or less examples?
> Have we completely run out of missed cars with broader multi road application?
> I don’t think we have many production single sheathed door and a half box cars and many of them had very long service lives and numbered in the thousands on many lines...and went all over.
> Charlie Vlk
>
> Don’t be fooled by the Lionel  F3 syndrome-  while a great railroad with attractive equipment, nothing else sells like it without Warbonnet paint....ATSF freight units sell about the same as high middle other roads.  Even a ATSF layout might not “need” a scarce car that was quickly obsoleted.


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tim O'Connor
 

Please take this dispute off line.

Thank you.

On 4/6/2020 11:43 AM, spsalso via groups.io wrote:
Paul,

And what did you think of MY tone?
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

spsalso
 

Paul,

And what did you think of MY tone?

Are you saying metal, in its solid form, does not shrink if it is cooled from 900 C down to 25 C?  And would that shrinking, if it does indeed happen, not be in line with what we call the "coefficient of thermal expansion"?

Brass solidifies at around 920 C.  So when the part gets to (around) 920 C, it will become a solid.  IF there is a huge liquid reservoir STILL pressing down on the part, it will indeed compress the part.  Unfortunately for your argument, the amount of compression is literally microscopic--as in, close to immeasurable.  And please note that, when the part is no longer being compressed, it will spring back to its former size.  Also, please note that all this springing back and forth STILL occurs at high temperature--the part has a long way to go to cool down to room temperature, and the shrinkage described in the previous paragraph will STILL happen.

Put more directly, I am saying you are wrong.  Again.  And I look forward to your attempt at disproving the concept of coefficient of thermal expansion.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 04:22 AM, Paul Woods wrote:
Tony

I am greatly insulted by your tone and it appears that you have not put any thought into your comment.  Seriously?  You are trying to tell us that ALL the metal in a casting cools to freezing point at exactly the same moment?  You might know a lot about metallurgy but I know a bit about building things from metal.  I hadn't bothered mentioning that the brass caster's tale matched my own experience gained building steel ships because it didn't seem important, but fine: the metal might eventually shrink equally, but not all at the same time because cooling happens from the outside in, and this can be used to our advantage.  I have dealt with plenty of  castings, such as A-frames for supporting ships' propeller shafts, with significant variations in section size.  The orientation of the casting as it is poured is quite important, with the thicker part intentionally placed above the thinner part so that it acts as a reservoir keeping the thin section filled as it cools....as a metallurgist you should be aware of the high density of metals such as steel and brass, and thus the pressure that will be exerted that can keep pushing semi-molten metal down towards the bottom of a mould when it is cooled slowly enough - that is the key, achieving a slow enough rate of cooling.  You can't tell me it doesn't work because I've already done it; yeah sure, the metal shrinks but if it's done right it is possible to control WHERE the shrinkage occurs.  The column that lost-wax brass parts are stuck to when they are cast serves as one heck of a big reservoir of molten metal as the 'branches' are freezing so I don't have any reason to doubt what the caster said.

Paul Woods
retired mechanical engineer
Re: CORRECTION: SSP Door Document

Tim O'Connor
 


Thank you Steve for the documents with photos. But I still think you should have
added your name to the document as editor and collaborator. :-P

Stay safe, friends

Tim O'



On 4/6/2020 11:03 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Mea culpa.  Bill Welch points out that I had an incorrect model photo for door number 622 the "upside down" door.
 
My apologies.  Please discard yesterday's and keep today's.
 
Thanks.
 
Steve Hile
 
I find that I cannot push these into the Files section on the Groups site.  I am not sure why.  Is that closed?

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tim O'Connor
 


I have some too - I'd forgotten where they come from. I only have enough for
one or two cars, but now there are the Kadees, so...


On 4/6/2020 12:04 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Dennis Storzek wrote:
I've only ever done one investment cast project; I wanted some bracket grabs that were more robust than the typical styrene parts, so back when Intermountain was still molding parts here in the US, I bought a hundred detail sprues from their PS-1, clipped the runner with the grabs out of them, and sent them out as investment masters. I was warned about the potential for ash to plug the long narrow cavity, and indeed, the reject rate was someplace around 20%, but the properly filled parts were nice.
    Richard Hendrickson did the same to get some durable bracket-mount grabs. I still have a couple dozen of his parts, very nice brass. Don't know what reject rate occurred.
Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
CORRECTION: SSP Door Document

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Mea culpa.  Bill Welch points out that I had an incorrect model photo for door number 622 the "upside down" door.
 
My apologies.  Please discard yesterday's and keep today's.
 
Thanks.
 
Steve Hile
 
I find that I cannot push these into the Files section on the Groups site.  I am not sure why.  Is that closed?
Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?

Tim O'Connor
 

Not to mention the UNION TANK CAR UTLX X-1 tank cars!! AAARGH!

:-D

On 4/5/2020 2:31 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
All-
Why do an interchange freight car prototype that had a hundred or less examples?
Have we completely run out of missed cars with broader multi road application?
I don’t think we have many production single sheathed door and a half box cars and many of them had very long service lives and numbered in the thousands on many lines...and went all over.
Charlie Vlk

Don’t be fooled by the Lionel F3 syndrome- while a great railroad with attractive equipment, nothing else sells like it without Warbonnet paint....ATSF freight units sell about the same as high middle other roads. Even a ATSF layout might not “need” a scarce car that was quickly obsoleted.
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Dennis Storzek
 

A couple of things are not being accounted for in this discussion. Yes, metal shrinks as it solidifies, as does most things, water excepted. But in the investment casting process, the molds are at somewhere around 1000 deg. F when the metal is poured, so thermal expansion has made the molds bigger.

Shrinkage does not have to be equal in all directions; if the part is constrained as it solidifies, most of the shrinkage will be in the thickness of the part. An example would be painting your house. Paint shrinks as it cures, but that doesn't mean that you house gets smaller as it dries. Since the house is sturdier than the shrinkage forces, 100% of the shrinkage is in the thickness of the paint film.

The big problem calculating size with the traditional lost wax process is accounting for the size change in all the steps; the master is used to make a rubber mold, and traditionally it wasn't RTV, but some heat cure rubber, which shrinks. Wax is poured into the mold, and it shrinks. The wax part is then used to make a plaster mold, which is then heated to burn out the wax and drive any moisture out of the plaster, so it doesn't flash to steam when the metal is poured, causing voids, or worst case, causing the mold to burst open. Finally, the metal shrinks as it cools. The shrink rate of each of these steps is only an estimation unless the job is such a long run that actual data was tracked for the purpose of adjusting the final part size. That just doesn't happen in model railroading. 

Another story, told to my by a professional modelmaker who was a friend of Bill Clouser:

Clouser modeled in 1/4" scale using the prototype track gauge, what we now call P:48. One of the nicest freightcar trucks available in those days was made by Carl Auel (sp?), but it was five foot gauge. Bill took one of the bolsters and used ti as a pattern, had enough cast in brass to provide multiple patterns to fill the typical spin casting mold, and then used that mold for waxes to have parts cast for himself and some friends who also modeled to exact scale. The resulting parts were 5% shorter than the original, which corrected the width of the truck.

Dennis Storzek
Help with a B&O document

Eric Lombard
 

Good Morning, Fellow Stay-at-Homes,

I would appreciate some help. I have a carefully arranged document archive system. The following document was so carefully archived almost 20 years ago that I can't find it. The journal issue is where it should be but the supplement is not with it.  I would be indebted to anyone who could provide me a scan of:

Daniels, R. K., 2001, [B&O] Freight Car Equipment, 1917-1927. Supplement, 12 pages, to The Sentinel, Vol. 23, No. 01: Baltimore & Ohio Historical Society

I am particularly in need of pages 1-3 at this moment.

Thanks in advance....

Eric Lombard
Stymied on a project in Homewood, IL
elombard@...
Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Really nice build, Bill!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 12:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar

 

CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar is a Westerfield kit. My modeling date is Oct. 1955 and by then these were probably all gone but I occasionally cheat and so the car has a re-weigh date in 1952. The underframe has not been glued as yet so the body is not yet sitting firmly nested on the U/F. I have also not yet attached the brake wheel. To help keep the turnbuckles taught as well as provide more comfort for someone "riding the rods" a wood plank has been lodged through the four turnbuckles on each side of the underframe. The scratch built Running Board and Latitudinals will receive replacement boards after sandpaper is used to peel some paint up.

Bill Welch

Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 09:04 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
  Richard Hendrickson did the same to get some durable bracket-mount grabs. I still have a couple dozen of his parts, very nice brass. Don't know what reject rate occurred.
Those may well be my parts, I intended to sell part of the run to recoup some of my cost, but when Richard heard about it, he bought all I wanted to sell.

Dennis Storzek