Date   
Re: Boxcar With Roof Hatches

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim and Friends,

Add WP to your list. By 1940 some of their double-sheathed boxcars from series 16001-18500 were renumbered to series 26001-26125 and were assigned to bulk plaster service out of Gerlach, Nevada. The earliest references I have to the roof hatches is in the 1949 ORER, with 20 cars having four hatches, and 15 having just two, from a total of 122 cars. By 1958 the fleet was down to just 24 cars, with just two having four hatches, and one having two. I presume the rest of the class were loaded through their main doors with some sort of "grain door" arrangement to keep the plaster from leaking out. Where these cars went from Gerlach is still a mystery to me, but I would be surprised if they operated of WP rails, unless they were turned over to UP or D&RGW for unloading in the Salt Lake City area.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:15 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Bob

A quick scan of the hard drive shows ACL, ATSF, BAR, BN, CN, CG, CP, D&H, DTI, EL, GN,
HS, LV, MILW, MONON, MP, N&W, NS, OAR, PC, PRR, RI, SAL, SCL, SOU, TH&B, UP, and WABASH
all had box cars with roof hatches.

And that's not a complete list. Tony mentioned the SP, too.

Tim



On 10/30/2019 5:51 PM, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io wrote:

Boxcar With Roof Hatches

I've seen a few photos of boxcars with roof hatches for loading such commodities as aluminum dross, cement, various clays, lime and spent grain.

All of the photos I've seen are associated with shippers in the Southeast and Midwest.

Would such boxcars have served shippers in the Southwest to any degree?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Swift paint scheme

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

For what is worth to this discussion, Kodak Verichrome Safety Film, an orthochromatic film was available from 1931-1956. Kodak's panchromatic Panatomic X was introduced in 1933, and their panchromatic Super-XX was introduced in 1940 (later morphed into Tri-X). Given their dominance in the U.S. market, most of the films used in the steam era were likely to be Kodak, especially among amateur photographers.

There point of the above paragraph is that there was considerable overlap between orthochromatic and panchromatic films, so one cannot date a photo simply on whether it was shot with ortho or pan films during our period of interest.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff


On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:48 PM Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 02:14 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

But I struggle with that being the explanation for the photo in question of 12624, which has very visible white lettering on the sides and ends. Nor does it explain the 1952 photo from Pittsburgh that shows what appears to be a red car with white lettering coupled to a yellow car with black lettering.

 

I agree the dark car in the 1952 photo is likely an early version of the bright red scheme, using the old style lettering and lacking the white fascia of the later cars. What it doesn't have is any indication of black lettering on the car sides, which the 12624 has. I'm still convinced that is a yellow car and the film is fooling us. I wonder when orthchromatic film was last used? I have several examples of images of cars built in the mid twenties that exhibit the color shift unique to that film. It apparently continued in use for large format industrial photography after the introduction of panchromatic film because it was prized for its fine grain and good contrast. As to availability, it's likely still available is anyone is still supplying film for photostat copy cameras.

Dennis Storzek

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Tim O'Connor
 

Stephen

I recall someone (perhaps at the St Louis RPM) told me that Tichy's printer uses a type of
"plastic" transfer method to create the lettering. If so, they ARE similar to vinyl letters. :-D



On 11/12/2019 11:35 PM, James SANDIFER wrote:

Tichy decals are extremely thick. There is no way I have found to blend them into a car. It is like using vinyl letters on a car. They would be fine on a 1.5” scale, but not HO.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Tim O'Connor
 


Jim that is awesome!! And they did it all without computers or email - or evidently
even the phone! I would never have thought a load of CORN in a reefer would be partially
unloaded in one place and then sent on to another destination. It makes me wonder what
the threshold for payment disputes was before the case went to a PUC or the ICC. =-O



On 11/12/2019 10:08 PM, np328 wrote:
    Here is another file I found concerning billing, and copies of waybills.  Presented not to make fun of accountants. However I have to wonder how much time and labor was expended here.
And of the thought that in the 1950's, five dollars was worth a lot more. 
This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  
     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  
From NP files found at the Minnesota Historical Society. ( After I die, I hope some day to have my ashes spread in the NP files at the MHS and then maybe, I can get in some real research time.)
Again presented for your education or amusement.                                                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
   

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: New video of my layout

Tony Thompson
 

Nolan Hinshaw wrote:

Schist, that's gneiss. Your comment in the blog post about the ads is a bit off-center - the ads don't always show up.
Thanks, Nolan. Glad you enjoyed it. I have no idea how YouTube inserts the ads, but if you watch a few times, you see all different ads, and not even the same number of them each time.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Re: New video of my layout

Tony Thompson
 

Tom Casey wrote:

Saw that last night, well worth the time to watch.  You sure have packed a lot of operation in a not so big space.

Thanks, Tom. Glad you enjoyed it.

Tony Thompson


Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Ken Adams
 

Some time ago I purchased some of the Tichy PFE decals. Unfortunately the lettering was way to thick to look good. But the SP and UP shields could be used for the period when PFE used metal shields rather than painted shields on their cars. Unfortunately that period ended before the period I model. The metal shields were removed as a hazard when they came loose from wood sided cars. 

Re: New video of my layout

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Nov 12, 2019, at 17:50, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

For anyone who might be interested, there's a new commercial video that has just been posted of my layout (link below) and maybe also to my blog post about it. The blog post is here:
Schist, that's gneiss. Your comment in the blog post about the ads is a bit off-center - the ads don't always show up.

^<@<.@* hat less at less point at star
}"_# | back brace double base pound space bar
-@$&/_% dash at cash and slash base rate
!(^I@|=> wow open tab at bar is great
;`+$?^? semi backquote plus cash huh DEL
,#"~|)^G comma pound double tilde bar close BEL

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Jack Mullen
 

Here's a youtube video link that was just posted on the EJ&E group.
This was filmed at Griffith IN in the mid '60s.  There's about 30" of a weed spray train working on the EJ&E, beginning at about  5'00".  There's a broadside shot of the spray car, and a glimpse of the top deck monitors in use.

https://youtu.be/cYTp3dLADyQ

Jack Mullen

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

William Hirt
 

Since we are discussing meat traffic, I dug into the 1959 CB&Q wheel reports that showed interchange cars going to IHB via Congress Park, Illinois, for forwarding. I have a couple of dates and list the meat traffic per day below. The NKP numbers are low because most of the eastbound CB&Q meat traffic for NKP went via Peoria (especially Morrell traffic). There was a blow up with Morrell and the Q several years later when the Q tried to change it (post Lou Menk) and get the longer haul to Chicago. They received the threat of Morrell pulling their traffic unless it was put back to Peoria. It was quickly changed to go back through Peoria.

April 5, 1959: May 1, 1959: July 19, 1959:
2 Meat B&O 4 Meat B&O 4 Meat B&O
3 Meat C&O 15 Meat C&O 3 Meat C&O
9 Meat ERIE 9 Meat ERIE 2 Meat C&EI
2 Meat GTW 2 Meat IC 4 Meat ERIE
2 Meat IC 1 Meat MON 3 Meat GTW
2 Meat MC (NYC) 11 Meat NKP 2 Meat IC
7 Meat NKP 62 Meat NYC 2 Meat MC (NYC)
34 Meat NYC 2 Meat PM (C&O) 3 Meat NKP
12 Meat PRR 24 Meat PRR 28 Meat NYC
    3 Meat PRR



Totals from sample:

B&O 10
C&EI 2
C&O 21
ERIE 22
GTW 5
IC 6
4 MC (NYC)
1 MON
21 NKP
124 NYC
39 PRR

Bill Hirt


On 11/13/2019 12:44 AM, Douglas Harding wrote:

Bruce I don’t dispute the PRR was a large railroad and thus moved a large number of freight car. Because of its size it did carry a high percentage of traffic of all kinds, close to 20% of the miles recorded by the Hormel cars were on the PPR. But that still does not excuse the fact that meat moving east out of Chicago was routed on the NKP, Erie, NYC and many other roads through or to areas also served by the PRR. Meat reefers were high priority loads. The IC even held passenger trains in sidings to allow meat traffic to keep moving eastward toward Chicago. Other roads simply moved the meat faster than the PRR, so they got the business from the meat packers.

 


Re: New video of my layout

tyesac@aol.com <tyesac@...>
 

Saw that last night, well worth the time to watch.  You sure have packed a lot of operation in a not so big space.

Tom Casey


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>; Espee <Espee@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 7:51 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] New video of my layout

For anyone who might be interested, there's a new commercial video that has just been posted of my layout (link below) and maybe also to my blog post about it. The blog post is here:


and the video, if you want to jump straight to it on YouTube, it's here:


Tony Thompson





NH 94593, a 36ft double sheathed boxcar

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
A nice image of NH 94593, a 36ft double sheathed boxcar.
 
The image is dated in 1914
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Bruce I don’t dispute the PRR was a large railroad and thus moved a large number of freight car. Because of its size it did carry a high percentage of traffic of all kinds, close to 20% of the miles recorded by the Hormel cars were on the PPR. But that still does not excuse the fact that meat moving east out of Chicago was routed on the NKP, Erie, NYC and many other roads through or to areas also served by the PRR. Meat reefers were high priority loads. The IC even held passenger trains in sidings to allow meat traffic to keep moving eastward toward Chicago. Other roads simply moved the meat faster than the PRR, so they got the business from the meat packers.

 

As to the mileage in the document that started this, again we are dealing with Hormel reefers, coming from only two locations in 1935, Austin MN or Mitchell SD. (The Mitchell plant opened in 1931 and was also served by the MILW.) I think the MILW received the majority of the loads out of Hormel, and moved most of them to Chicago and eastern connections. The CGW got the rest of the loads, and took them south to Lyle MN to interchange with the IC or north to Hayfield MN to use their own tracks to Chicago. Again in the 30s most meat went east. The west had their own slaughter houses, so very little meat went west. Yes the MILW went west, but apparently did not serve the same destinations as the NP. I will speculated most of the MILW mileage was moving meat from Austin to Chicago.

 

The MILW had almost 19% of the mileage. The combined CGW/IC mileage is over 12%. Meaning 31% of the miles were mostly moves from Austin to Chicago, a distance of less than 400 miles, or Mitchel to Chicago, a distance of about 650 miles. Chicago to New York is about 800 miles. Chicago to Boston is almost 1000 miles. From Chicago eastward 35% of the miles were on PRR competitors. The PRR didn’t even get the Hormel cars until they had already traveled 400 miles or further. The cars made about 30 round trips to New York or Philly divided among the four cars over 13 months.

 

In 1935, Hormel had Branch Houses in Birmingham AL, San Francisco, and Seattle WA and perhaps a few other locations. They had a fleet of 225 reefers in 1937. Granted Hormel reefers could go anywhere in the country, and they did, but not always on the PRR.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:06 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

 

Doug,

 

I’m not surprised at all about the PRR. There is a lot of data, real data (as opposed to anecdotes), that supports a high amount of reefer traffic on the PRR. The PRR was the third highest conveyor of produce in the nation,  behind SP and UP (beating AT&SF) and the number one conveyer of loaded produce refrigerator cars east of the Mississippi. I don’t see why, with the PRR's routing and connections, that should be any different for meat ;)  Now, before the usual characters (you know who you are) jump in, I will note that loaded versus empty mileage is not differentiated and the relatively high mileage on the Erie probably does indicate a propensity to send loads in that direction and empties home via the PRR. However loads, and lots of them, are also moving via the PRR. And yes, I know, the PRR probably had the highest damage claims of any of the railroads listed. But enough of this silliness that perishables weren’t shipped via the PRR. They were, and typically in amounts greater than any other eastern railroad. So I’ll happily model large blocks on reefers on the PRR, thank you!

 

I’m also curious why you state what you do about Northern Pacific, given that the Milwaukee Road, being a western bridge route, had the second most miles (to the PRR’s #1) with 17,500 while the NP had a miniscule 3,800. I would have said that the CMStP&P was Hormel’s western route…

 

Regards

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

 



On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

<SNIP>

I am surprised by the number of miles of the PPR as it was a road avoided by most meat packers until final destination. It appears the NP was Hormel’s choice for moving meat west.

<SNIP>

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Don & Others,

I've had some personal nasty emails about my comments concerning the Tichy decals. I don't understand as I have not said anything negative about Tichy or their decals or other products. 

I intended and thought my comments were more supportive than negative so I can't understand the ire directed my way. I merely stated that for those who think they are too thick BASED ON THE COMMENTS HERE FROM OTHER POSTERS that I felt just tossing them based on these comments was sort of dumb. If you've already paid for them then you should use them and see if they are actually too thick. They aren't permanent and come off easy.

Some folks said the decals were old stock from Jerry Glow and they were fine but new ones by Tichy were too thick. I don't know.

If my comments have ruffled some people I feel sorry for you as you're obviously seeing something that wasn't there.

Jeeze, Guys!

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 03:36:16 PM CST, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:


Decals are only as good as the film they are printed on, Roger, and thhat seems to be the trouble we
continually hear about Tichy decals. From whAT I hear elsewere the only place one can purchase good
decal sheets lately are in England. Their decal pricing is also better as is that from Italy. The old
expression is the consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds but if the film is not of consistent and
constant quality no one is going to be successful in the decal field.

Just another point of view, Don Valentine

Re: NP Refrigerators

Chuck Soule
 

Them Monad does go back to the 1890s as an NP symbol.  What changed through time was the extra tags like Yellowstone Park Line, which was in being used in the 1930s.  There is an NP PR brochure at the NPRHA website that talks about the history of the Monad in Asia and that the NP adopted it after the 1893 Columbian Exposition, but I could not find a convenient link to the different variations through time.

Chuck Soule

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank car

Doug Forbes
 

Thanks to all for the suggestions on how to proceed as well as the photos.  I think I have a much better handle on where to go and what to do.  Thanks again. 

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

James SANDIFER
 

Titchy decals are extremely thick. There is no way I have found to blend them into a car. It is like using vinyl letters on a car. They would be fine on a 1.5” scale, but not HO.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Huber via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 10:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

 

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand everyone wanting just throw them away. If you've already ordered and paid for them why not at least test them and see if they are good to use? Apparently from what I've read here and other places some sets are fine and others are too thick. If they are decals for a RR or company you thought enough of to buy for a piece of equipment then try them to see if they meet your standards? If they don't cut the mustard then they are easy to remove and THEN throw them away?

 

I haven't tried them yet but have purchased several different sets. Having been in the hobby for so many years I've worked with most brands and many have some unusual characteristics and all I doubt if they can be much worse than the crap from Walthers we used for years.

 

Just my 2¢

 

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

 

 

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 09:35:40 AM CST, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

 

 

I have a set. I’ll throw them away and save you the 8 bucks.

 

 

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Drew Bunn
 



On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jim Dick wrote:

> Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Basically. In the trucking world "detention charges" are what we bill the Receiver for excessive unloading time. I'll give you 2 hours to unload my trailer, after that it's $100/hour to keep me waiting around and tying up my equipment.. so get movin'.
__________________________________
Drew Bunn
 
drew.r.bunn@...
 
Cell - (905) 483-0758

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  

      Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  

      The retired PFE Car Service Manager I interviewed stated that partial unloadings were rare in his experience, but that was the produce business. I have heard it was fairly common in the meat business.

Tony Thompson



Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

np328
 

    Here is another file I found concerning billing, and copies of waybills.  Presented not to make fun of accountants. However I have to wonder how much time and labor was expended here.
And of the thought that in the 1950's, five dollars was worth a lot more. 
This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  
     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  
From NP files found at the Minnesota Historical Society. ( After I die, I hope some day to have my ashes spread in the NP files at the MHS and then maybe, I can get in some real research time.)
Again presented for your education or amusement.                                                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN