Date   
Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Jack Mullen
 

Here's a youtube video link that was just posted on the EJ&E group.
This was filmed at Griffith IN in the mid '60s.  There's about 30" of a weed spray train working on the EJ&E, beginning at about  5'00".  There's a broadside shot of the spray car, and a glimpse of the top deck monitors in use.

https://youtu.be/cYTp3dLADyQ

Jack Mullen

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

William Hirt
 

Since we are discussing meat traffic, I dug into the 1959 CB&Q wheel reports that showed interchange cars going to IHB via Congress Park, Illinois, for forwarding. I have a couple of dates and list the meat traffic per day below. The NKP numbers are low because most of the eastbound CB&Q meat traffic for NKP went via Peoria (especially Morrell traffic). There was a blow up with Morrell and the Q several years later when the Q tried to change it (post Lou Menk) and get the longer haul to Chicago. They received the threat of Morrell pulling their traffic unless it was put back to Peoria. It was quickly changed to go back through Peoria.

April 5, 1959: May 1, 1959: July 19, 1959:
2 Meat B&O 4 Meat B&O 4 Meat B&O
3 Meat C&O 15 Meat C&O 3 Meat C&O
9 Meat ERIE 9 Meat ERIE 2 Meat C&EI
2 Meat GTW 2 Meat IC 4 Meat ERIE
2 Meat IC 1 Meat MON 3 Meat GTW
2 Meat MC (NYC) 11 Meat NKP 2 Meat IC
7 Meat NKP 62 Meat NYC 2 Meat MC (NYC)
34 Meat NYC 2 Meat PM (C&O) 3 Meat NKP
12 Meat PRR 24 Meat PRR 28 Meat NYC
    3 Meat PRR



Totals from sample:

B&O 10
C&EI 2
C&O 21
ERIE 22
GTW 5
IC 6
4 MC (NYC)
1 MON
21 NKP
124 NYC
39 PRR

Bill Hirt


On 11/13/2019 12:44 AM, Douglas Harding wrote:

Bruce I don’t dispute the PRR was a large railroad and thus moved a large number of freight car. Because of its size it did carry a high percentage of traffic of all kinds, close to 20% of the miles recorded by the Hormel cars were on the PPR. But that still does not excuse the fact that meat moving east out of Chicago was routed on the NKP, Erie, NYC and many other roads through or to areas also served by the PRR. Meat reefers were high priority loads. The IC even held passenger trains in sidings to allow meat traffic to keep moving eastward toward Chicago. Other roads simply moved the meat faster than the PRR, so they got the business from the meat packers.

 


Re: New video of my layout

tyesac@aol.com <tyesac@...>
 

Saw that last night, well worth the time to watch.  You sure have packed a lot of operation in a not so big space.

Tom Casey


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>; Espee <Espee@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2019 7:51 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] New video of my layout

For anyone who might be interested, there's a new commercial video that has just been posted of my layout (link below) and maybe also to my blog post about it. The blog post is here:


and the video, if you want to jump straight to it on YouTube, it's here:


Tony Thompson





NH 94593, a 36ft double sheathed boxcar

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
A nice image of NH 94593, a 36ft double sheathed boxcar.
 
The image is dated in 1914
 
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Bruce I don’t dispute the PRR was a large railroad and thus moved a large number of freight car. Because of its size it did carry a high percentage of traffic of all kinds, close to 20% of the miles recorded by the Hormel cars were on the PPR. But that still does not excuse the fact that meat moving east out of Chicago was routed on the NKP, Erie, NYC and many other roads through or to areas also served by the PRR. Meat reefers were high priority loads. The IC even held passenger trains in sidings to allow meat traffic to keep moving eastward toward Chicago. Other roads simply moved the meat faster than the PRR, so they got the business from the meat packers.

 

As to the mileage in the document that started this, again we are dealing with Hormel reefers, coming from only two locations in 1935, Austin MN or Mitchell SD. (The Mitchell plant opened in 1931 and was also served by the MILW.) I think the MILW received the majority of the loads out of Hormel, and moved most of them to Chicago and eastern connections. The CGW got the rest of the loads, and took them south to Lyle MN to interchange with the IC or north to Hayfield MN to use their own tracks to Chicago. Again in the 30s most meat went east. The west had their own slaughter houses, so very little meat went west. Yes the MILW went west, but apparently did not serve the same destinations as the NP. I will speculated most of the MILW mileage was moving meat from Austin to Chicago.

 

The MILW had almost 19% of the mileage. The combined CGW/IC mileage is over 12%. Meaning 31% of the miles were mostly moves from Austin to Chicago, a distance of less than 400 miles, or Mitchel to Chicago, a distance of about 650 miles. Chicago to New York is about 800 miles. Chicago to Boston is almost 1000 miles. From Chicago eastward 35% of the miles were on PRR competitors. The PRR didn’t even get the Hormel cars until they had already traveled 400 miles or further. The cars made about 30 round trips to New York or Philly divided among the four cars over 13 months.

 

In 1935, Hormel had Branch Houses in Birmingham AL, San Francisco, and Seattle WA and perhaps a few other locations. They had a fleet of 225 reefers in 1937. Granted Hormel reefers could go anywhere in the country, and they did, but not always on the PRR.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:06 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

 

Doug,

 

I’m not surprised at all about the PRR. There is a lot of data, real data (as opposed to anecdotes), that supports a high amount of reefer traffic on the PRR. The PRR was the third highest conveyor of produce in the nation,  behind SP and UP (beating AT&SF) and the number one conveyer of loaded produce refrigerator cars east of the Mississippi. I don’t see why, with the PRR's routing and connections, that should be any different for meat ;)  Now, before the usual characters (you know who you are) jump in, I will note that loaded versus empty mileage is not differentiated and the relatively high mileage on the Erie probably does indicate a propensity to send loads in that direction and empties home via the PRR. However loads, and lots of them, are also moving via the PRR. And yes, I know, the PRR probably had the highest damage claims of any of the railroads listed. But enough of this silliness that perishables weren’t shipped via the PRR. They were, and typically in amounts greater than any other eastern railroad. So I’ll happily model large blocks on reefers on the PRR, thank you!

 

I’m also curious why you state what you do about Northern Pacific, given that the Milwaukee Road, being a western bridge route, had the second most miles (to the PRR’s #1) with 17,500 while the NP had a miniscule 3,800. I would have said that the CMStP&P was Hormel’s western route…

 

Regards

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

 



On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

<SNIP>

I am surprised by the number of miles of the PPR as it was a road avoided by most meat packers until final destination. It appears the NP was Hormel’s choice for moving meat west.

<SNIP>

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Don & Others,

I've had some personal nasty emails about my comments concerning the Tichy decals. I don't understand as I have not said anything negative about Tichy or their decals or other products. 

I intended and thought my comments were more supportive than negative so I can't understand the ire directed my way. I merely stated that for those who think they are too thick BASED ON THE COMMENTS HERE FROM OTHER POSTERS that I felt just tossing them based on these comments was sort of dumb. If you've already paid for them then you should use them and see if they are actually too thick. They aren't permanent and come off easy.

Some folks said the decals were old stock from Jerry Glow and they were fine but new ones by Tichy were too thick. I don't know.

If my comments have ruffled some people I feel sorry for you as you're obviously seeing something that wasn't there.

Jeeze, Guys!

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 03:36:16 PM CST, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:


Decals are only as good as the film they are printed on, Roger, and thhat seems to be the trouble we
continually hear about Tichy decals. From whAT I hear elsewere the only place one can purchase good
decal sheets lately are in England. Their decal pricing is also better as is that from Italy. The old
expression is the consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds but if the film is not of consistent and
constant quality no one is going to be successful in the decal field.

Just another point of view, Don Valentine

Re: NP Refrigerators

Chuck Soule
 

Them Monad does go back to the 1890s as an NP symbol.  What changed through time was the extra tags like Yellowstone Park Line, which was in being used in the 1930s.  There is an NP PR brochure at the NPRHA website that talks about the history of the Monad in Asia and that the NP adopted it after the 1893 Columbian Exposition, but I could not find a convenient link to the different variations through time.

Chuck Soule

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank car

Doug Forbes
 

Thanks to all for the suggestions on how to proceed as well as the photos.  I think I have a much better handle on where to go and what to do.  Thanks again. 

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

James SANDIFER
 

Titchy decals are extremely thick. There is no way I have found to blend them into a car. It is like using vinyl letters on a car. They would be fine on a 1.5” scale, but not HO.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Huber via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 10:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

 

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand everyone wanting just throw them away. If you've already ordered and paid for them why not at least test them and see if they are good to use? Apparently from what I've read here and other places some sets are fine and others are too thick. If they are decals for a RR or company you thought enough of to buy for a piece of equipment then try them to see if they meet your standards? If they don't cut the mustard then they are easy to remove and THEN throw them away?

 

I haven't tried them yet but have purchased several different sets. Having been in the hobby for so many years I've worked with most brands and many have some unusual characteristics and all I doubt if they can be much worse than the crap from Walthers we used for years.

 

Just my 2¢

 

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

 

 

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 09:35:40 AM CST, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

 

 

I have a set. I’ll throw them away and save you the 8 bucks.

 

 

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Drew Bunn
 



On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:32 PM Jim Dick wrote:

> Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Basically. In the trucking world "detention charges" are what we bill the Receiver for excessive unloading time. I'll give you 2 hours to unload my trailer, after that it's $100/hour to keep me waiting around and tying up my equipment.. so get movin'.
__________________________________
Drew Bunn
 
drew.r.bunn@...
 
Cell - (905) 483-0758

Re: Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  

      Reading the correspondence, about a reefer spotted for unloading, the "detention" sounds like a demurrage topic.

     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  

      The retired PFE Car Service Manager I interviewed stated that partial unloadings were rare in his experience, but that was the produce business. I have heard it was fairly common in the meat business.

Tony Thompson



Chasing five dollars and fifeteen cents.

np328
 

    Here is another file I found concerning billing, and copies of waybills.  Presented not to make fun of accountants. However I have to wonder how much time and labor was expended here.
And of the thought that in the 1950's, five dollars was worth a lot more. 
This collection of paperwork has "detention" listed several times so it must have been a somewhat common term.  
     Also note that the reefer makes several stops here. Is there anyone who has modeled that?  
From NP files found at the Minnesota Historical Society. ( After I die, I hope some day to have my ashes spread in the NP files at the MHS and then maybe, I can get in some real research time.)
Again presented for your education or amusement.                                                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
   

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

np328
 

    Paul, I presented several years ago at Chicago and CCB RPMs about the usage of reefers and in winter they were busiest. January, February saw about 100 percent usage in AAR notes I found and used as a basis for the presentation following reefer loading bi-monthly for 1956-57.  

     I'll attach the image and the yellow areas are where they definitely needed to be used (in protective service) to keep things like canned goods, pharmaceuticals, and other items safe. The red areas are where crops were ripening and ready for transit, and the orange areas are where potatoes were being shipped, more or less as a year round commodity. If potatoes freeze they get mealy. Potatoes I found were more or less shipped year round and if a person does not know what else to waybill on a reefer, potatoes is a safe bet.  

      Oh wait, here is a list I put in the files some time ago: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Perishable%20Commodities,%20definition%20and%20list%20of  
John Hile uploaded these:https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/P%20P%20Tariff%2013%20Rule%2036.pdf   Item 1140 (Florist stock - ferns) a few pages down is more common than you would think load coming east on the NP in reefers. How often when you see bouquets of flowers, do you see ferns used to accent the bunch? 
      Note in either of these lists, all the items preceded by the numeral 1, items that need to be protected against cold or heat. Or the number 3, items that needed to be protected against cold. And if a commodity that needed to be protected were loaded in the yellow area or destined for the yellow area, it would have been placed in a reefer.  How often do we see this modeled or model it?
     Here is another upload by John:   https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/P%20P%20Tariff%2013%20Section%206.pdf

     OK, after one presentation, someone came up to me and stated only, "However I don't model winter." I'm not sure why they thought that was pertinent however, lets follow up on it. 
     Reefers according to all the data I have ever seen were some of the top earners on the rails. They also were bought on bonds (borrowed cash) that had to be paid off. And standing still made no money. They make money (per mile) when they are moving unloaded or loaded and the most when loaded. However we have talked about that here before. 
    So they make money in when in protected service and when fruits and vegetables ripen and need to be shipped.  What do they do the rest of the year?   The 3 for 1 keeps them moving. 

    The three for one substitution here" https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Refrigerator%20Cars%20for%20Box%20Cars     John Barry was kind enough to roll eleven pages into one pdf at the bottom.  The 3 for 1 or 2 for 1 (simplified) means for the price of one boxcar you can get up to two or three reefers.  As we have talked about it here before, it is meant to get reefers home, with a load if possible.
        So does that increase or decrease the odds of seeing reefers in a train consist, (generally speaking)?  I'd think it increases the chances.

        And the links above by myself or John Hile give a broad list of commodities to model.  I think John's is better. A boxcar of canned goods to a food wholesaler or two reefers of the same canned goods? With the substitution allowance either is perfectly plausible.  
       
 I started the above mentioned presentation with the thought - Do I have too many reefers? I still wonder however using some in protected service or under the 3 for 1 rule, it is not a crisis.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim Dick - St. Paul 
     


Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Donald B. Valentine
 

Partial unloading has been covered before if not here on the Bull Shipper's list. It was a common thing in many
less populated areas and when most people were more honest.  The business at the end of the route from a meat
packers branch house would have their meet loaded first, then it would be papered over in the car and that for the
the next to last stop would be loaded next. This could go on until the car was filled but rarely for more than four
stops from what I've been told so there was no reicing required in the majority of such loadings.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Greg Martin wrote:

There was per diem to be paid on an empty car and a reefer was an expensive car to have stuck online.

   Well, not really. Reefers were paid on mileage, loaded or empty, NOT on per diem. That's why Western reefer owners like SFRD and PFE had agents in every eastern city, to "encourage" the yardmasters to move empty reefers back west. With no per diem to pay, they would otherwise have been in no hurry.

Tony Thompson



Re: Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Greg Martin
 


Empty milesge was huge especially if you weren't in the loaded revenue stream.

 I don't believe the issue of returning an empty car back to the home road happened as often as one might think. I think the local clerks did a stand up job to protect their crews. 

There was per diem to be paid on an empty car and a reefer was an expensive car to have stuck online.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 11/12/19 9:09 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Bruce Smith wrote:

There is a lot of data, real data (as opposed to anecdotes), that supports a high amount of reefer traffic on the PRR. The PRR was the third highest conveyor of produce in the nation,  behind SP and UP (beating AT&SF) and the number one conveyer of loaded produce refrigerator cars east of the Mississippi. 

       I am not one who disputes these facts. What I always point out, which was pointed out to me by a retired PFE executive, is that PRR had the highest perishable damage claims, PER TON MILE, of any railroad. That isn't just a lot of claims because they were a big railroad, it's a lot of claims, period. And it's the reason that PFE agents advised shippers to route on railroads OTHER THAN the PRR as far as possible.
       But as Bruce says, the PRR was not entirely avoidable throughout much of the northeast and in the biggest cities of the day, New York and Philadelphia. Empty return was not as time critical, so PRR may have had a huge share in empty mileage, as Bruce mentions.

Tony Thompson




--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

New video of my layout

Tony Thompson
 

For anyone who might be interested, there's a new commercial video that has just been posted of my layout (link below) and maybe also to my blog post about it. The blog post is here:

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2019/11/a-new-video-of-my-layout.html

and the video, if you want to jump straight to it on YouTube, it's here:

https://youtu.be/RUfmRvun2_w

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Re: NP Refrigerators

Tim O'Connor
 

The monad goes back to some time after 1893. It was applied to some rolling stock in the 1920s.

On 11/12/2019 8:37 PM, radiodial868 wrote:
Interesting. The Monad was in use in 1931?  Man, I've had to discard the Monad decals on all the NP Boxcars I've built (1939) per the Sunshine data sheets, and you tell me that the reefers had it all that time? May have to look into Andy Carlson's kit bash, although not sure what ends to use to match the radial roof casting from Central Valley Model Works.
RJ Dial
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: NP Refrigerators

radiodial868
 

Interesting. The Monad was in use in 1931?  Man, I've had to discard the Monad decals on all the NP Boxcars I've built (1939) per the Sunshine data sheets, and you tell me that the reefers had it all that time? May have to look into Andy Carlson's kit bash, although not sure what ends to use to match the radial roof casting from Central Valley Model Works.
RJ Dial

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

np328
 

        Of the trip frequencies, I recently noted a reefer (in other paperwork) that made a partial unloading, then a second stop where it was fully unloaded. This would certainly slow down mileage covered. I mention this because I am not aware of anyone who has mention modeling partial unloading of a reefer.  
      
         I have no information on how common this was. I am aware that some reefers traveled branchlines and made multiple stops however reefers used this way (at least on the NP) were home road reefers in captive service. 

         Can someone explain the term "detentions" in connection with reefer travel.  Tony, I looked through the index on the PFE book however not there.  I'll post in another thread some paperwork where the term detention is used several times.                                                                                                                             Jim Dick