Date   
Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Doug,
 
These Nalco sprayers seem to just come in under the wire for the Steam Era list, being circa 1959 builds as National Aluminate sought to diversify from its primary focus of steam locomotive water treatment chemicals into a broader spectrum of chemical products and services, including weed spraying.  It was in 1959 that it changed its name to Nalco.
 
If I were wanting to do one of these cars, I would probably start with an Intermountain AAR 10'6" boxcar kit.  The separate ends would make it easy to substitute cut-up Tichy USRA 5-5-5 ends.  As Jack Mullen suggests, a radial roof seems appropriate.  The car side tabs would have to go and the side door opening be filled.  Archer Rivets could be used, either on the replacement panel or on a smooth full side to get the 12 total panels.  How far to lower the rear of the sides and what is on the top of that platform will be the challenge.  I found a small side view shot using Google leading to Pinterest, but could not pull up a decent image.  You would think that there could be some article of advertisement in the RR press of the late 50's that could show some more details.
 
Good luck,
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 11:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Thanks, that would be my blog on MRH.  Maybe I should have elaborated more.  My brother purchased the Great Northern Railway historical society weed sprayer kit but hasn't gotten around to building it so he let me have a go at it.  We were hoping it would be a close stand into the NALCO weed sprayer that was used on the C&EI as in the original post.  However, even a short glance shows that the GNR weed sprayer is much too different to be a close match.  Therefore, I am looking for suggestions on which type of boxcar would be a good starting point for a kitbash of the NALCO sprayer.  Does anyone recognize the corrugation patterns on the end? 
I also wanted to include a few in progress shots of the GNRHS weed sprayer resin kit. 

Re: NP Refrigerators

radiodial868
 

Duoh!  I shoulda known that having built 7 F&C T&G NP boxcars. And as Andy pointed out, the underframe was fishbelly too. I also seriously doubt that Monad herald is appropriate for 1930's either.
Two more for eBay!
Thanks all,
RJ Dial

Hormel Meat Reefer traffic was Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Bruce Smith
 

Doug,

I’m not surprised at all about the PRR. There is a lot of data, real data (as opposed to anecdotes), that supports a high amount of reefer traffic on the PRR. The PRR was the third highest conveyor of produce in the nation,  behind SP and UP (beating AT&SF) and the number one conveyer of loaded produce refrigerator cars east of the Mississippi. I don’t see why, with the PRR's routing and connections, that should be any different for meat ;)  Now, before the usual characters (you know who you are) jump in, I will note that loaded versus empty mileage is not differentiated and the relatively high mileage on the Erie probably does indicate a propensity to send loads in that direction and empties home via the PRR. However loads, and lots of them, are also moving via the PRR. And yes, I know, the PRR probably had the highest damage claims of any of the railroads listed. But enough of this silliness that perishables weren’t shipped via the PRR. They were, and typically in amounts greater than any other eastern railroad. So I’ll happily model large blocks on reefers on the PRR, thank you!

I’m also curious why you state what you do about Northern Pacific, given that the Milwaukee Road, being a western bridge route, had the second most miles (to the PRR’s #1) with 17,500 while the NP had a miniscule 3,800. I would have said that the CMStP&P was Hormel’s western route…

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:
<SNIP>
I am surprised by the number of miles of the PPR as it was a road avoided by most meat packers until final destination. It appears the NP was Hormel’s choice for moving meat west.
<SNIP>

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Paul, the cars in the article were Hormel Meat reefers. In the 30s, Hormel had one plant at Austin MN, served by the MILW and the CGW. That would account for the large number of miles on those two roads. Most of the other roads on the list are eastern roads, many with connections in Chicago. In the 30’s meat was slaughtered in the mid-west and consumed in the east. So Hormel cars were moved east via Chicago then passed on to eastern roads via Indiana Harbor Belt.  NKP, NYC, ERIE  were all known for moving meat, fast. I am surprised by the number of miles of the PPR as it was a road avoided by most meat packers until final destination. It appears the NP was Hormel’s choice for moving meat west. And the Southern and C&O were used for moving meat to the SE.

 

Meat reefers were in leased captive service, and returned quickly. Cars leased to Hormel would all be returned to Austin. It’s possible they went through North American’s repair facility on their return, but they did not sit idle. Figure one day for cleaning inspection. If done on site, then icing and loading could also occur that same day, or the next day as the cars had to cool down after cleaning. Cooling took about 4 hours. Once loaded meat reefers were switched and moved. Typical departure from Austin late afternoon or early evening with arrival at IHB Chicago at 1:30pm the next day, switched reiced and interchanged with eastern road by evening. Overnight to icing station in Ohio or further east, then on to New York City, Boston or Philadelphia markets. Unloading the 4th  or  5th morning after being loaded. Then begins the return trips, no need to stop for icing, but perhaps a stop at North American for inspection and repairs. A 10 or 12 day turn around is not out of the question. But a load every 20 days was typical for meat reefers.

 

Yes the cars could sit idle somewhere. But meat packers did not want those cars sitting idle, so they had agents across the country who keep those cars moving. It was best to see your leased reefer sitting at your own storage yard next to your plant.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Woods
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:28 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

 

Jim,

Thanks for posting this, it is a great find.  It is interesting that the top three railroads conveyed the cars for half of their total mileage, but what I found most informative was the large number of roads that only accounted for a small mileage, meaning that the cars probably visited/passed through many of them only once in the 13 months that they were being monitored.  Anyone with more freight cars on their layout than they know what to do with should rejoice, because it would seem that some cars should only be seen once a year....they could be considered to be the model railroad equivalent of Haley's Comet!

The figures got me thinking....nine round trips in three months is a cycle time of ten days, give or take - I can't decide if the text is saying nine round trips per car or combined total for both cars so I'm assuming shortest turnaround time in this instance.  I'm guessing that the cars would be moved quite rapidly once loaded, only taking two or three days to reach destination and be unloaded, so how was the remaining time taken up?  They would have to be cleaned, sure, but what I am most curious about is how much time such cars would spend just parked in a spur waiting for the next call to action?  It could add some extra operational interest, sending a switcher out to store or retrieve empty cars all over a layout.  What happened to private-owner cars; were they always stenciled with a 'when empty return to....' or could they be left hanging around the destination road's tracks until next called upon?

I know foreign-road cars would be returned as soon as possible, but certainly home road cars might need to be stored for a while, and even foreign cars might have to be stored for a day or two until the next local could pick them up.  If it's the depths of winter and your sorting yard is jammed up with coal hoppers then might an empty reefer get shoved down a spur out of the way for a day?  Am I forgetting some important car handling rule or is this a situation that arose now and then?

Regards
Paul

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Jim,

Thanks for posting this, it is a great find.  It is interesting that the top three railroads conveyed the cars for half of their total mileage, but what I found most informative was the large number of roads that only accounted for a small mileage, meaning that the cars probably visited/passed through many of them only once in the 13 months that they were being monitored.  Anyone with more freight cars on their layout than they know what to do with should rejoice, because it would seem that some cars should only be seen once a year....they could be considered to be the model railroad equivalent of Haley's Comet!

The figures got me thinking....nine round trips in three months is a cycle time of ten days, give or take - I can't decide if the text is saying nine round trips per car or combined total for both cars so I'm assuming shortest turnaround time in this instance.  I'm guessing that the cars would be moved quite rapidly once loaded, only taking two or three days to reach destination and be unloaded, so how was the remaining time taken up?  They would have to be cleaned, sure, but what I am most curious about is how much time such cars would spend just parked in a spur waiting for the next call to action?  It could add some extra operational interest, sending a switcher out to store or retrieve empty cars all over a layout.  What happened to private-owner cars; were they always stenciled with a 'when empty return to....' or could they be left hanging around the destination road's tracks until next called upon?

I know foreign-road cars would be returned as soon as possible, but certainly home road cars might need to be stored for a while, and even foreign cars might have to be stored for a day or two until the next local could pick them up.  If it's the depths of winter and your sorting yard is jammed up with coal hoppers then might an empty reefer get shoved down a spur out of the way for a day?  Am I forgetting some important car handling rule or is this a situation that arose now and then?

Regards
Paul

Re: How's Tichy doing currently, decal thickness and all?

Fred Jansz
 

I need Tichy #10013 Western Asphalt set for my OMI 10K Gal tank car.
Takes only $4 with $4 shipping, $8 total.
But if I have to dump the set right away, I'd rather spend the 8 bucks on something else.
Fred Jansz

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Jack Mullen
 

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:42 PM, Doug Forbes wrote:
Therefore, I am looking for suggestions on which type of boxcar would be a good starting point for a kitbash of the NALCO sprayer.  Does anyone recognize the corrugation patterns on the end? 
5 corrugations in a panel so the cars were originally USRA boxcars with 5/5/5 Murphy ends. The ends were widened when the cars were rebuilt with steel sides, so the originals were single sheathed. The middle panel of the end, (mostly removed to form the large windows) is taller than the top or bottom sections, so the car's height was increased by adding a strip in the middle rather than at the top of the end. They received Hutchins radial roofs in the rebuild. 
C&O had a fairly large group of USRA SS boxcars rebuilt in the '30s iirc with Youngstown sides, Hutchins roofs and additional height added in the middle panel of the end, so I bet those were the source of Nalco's cars.
It appears that Sunshine made a kit for the C&O rebuilds.

Jack Mullen

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Doug Forbes
 

Thanks, that would be my blog on MRH.  Maybe I should have elaborated more.  My brother purchased the Great Northern Railway historical society weed sprayer kit but hasn't gotten around to building it so he let me have a go at it.  We were hoping it would be a close stand into the NALCO weed sprayer that was used on the C&EI as in the original post.  However, even a short glance shows that the GNR weed sprayer is much too different to be a close match.  Therefore, I am looking for suggestions on which type of boxcar would be a good starting point for a kitbash of the NALCO sprayer.  Does anyone recognize the corrugation patterns on the end? 
I also wanted to include a few in progress shots of the GNRHS weed sprayer resin kit. 

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Bob Chaparro
 

Some of you old timers (such as myself) might remember that Athearn produced an HO scale truck frame with a black rubber insert block that vaguely resembled the two metal coil springs it was designed to replace. These certainly were easier to install than the metal coil springs. I only had six or so car kits that were so equipped.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: NP Refrigerators

Andy Carlson
 

And a fishbelly underframe. Dave Koaster in Southern California made a good kitbash by taking a factory painted NP Red Caboose reefer, added a Central Valley NP stock car roof narrowed down about an 1/8" and replaced the underframe with an Accurail fishbelly.

I have the RC reefer and a CVMW NP stock car roof. Buyer would need to source the underframe.

On Monday, November 11, 2019, 8:38:45 PM PST, npin53 <npin53@...> wrote:


NP wood reefers had a radial roof.

Aaron Gjermundson 

Re: NP Refrigerators

npin53
 

NP wood reefers had a radial roof.

Aaron Gjermundson 

NP Refrigerators

radiodial868
 

I was culling through my stash of Reefer kits and came across 2 Red Caboose kits (now Intermountain) in the following paint and car number.  Checked the NPRHS site (http://www.nprha.org/NP%20Refrigerator%20Cars/Forms/Thumbnails.aspx) and the car # doesn't jive. Total Foobie on a PFE body?
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA

RR-34429

Re: Harvesting Dirt Collectors

Lester Breuer
 

Bill a good tip.   Another solution to having a good supply of dirt collectors would be for Tichy to take the dirt collector  in Set 3013 and make them available in a multiple group of that part only.  I have written Tichy suggesting Don produce such a set for us to purchase.  I ask any member of this group  interested to also write or send and email to Tchy to show there is an interest, a market  for a dirt collector only set. 

Lester Breuer

Re: Tri-Sorb snubbers on reefers

Tim O'Connor
 


That list of route miles traveled by two cars is fascinating. And only 9 round trips in 13 months!!



On 11/11/2019 6:36 PM, np328 wrote:
     While at the Chicagoland 2019 RPM gathering and after presentations were complete, I was walking past a room and noted Steve Hile, Doug Harding, Roger Hinman, and a smattering of others gathered in a presentation room with images passing on a screen.
     Of these 3 fellows above gathered in one area, I knew enough not to walk on by and quietly entered and took a seat. I can't reveal the topic at hand as this could be a future presentation in the works by one of these folks however.... for not closing the door or booting anyone out, I will bring a small token of thanks - in these image postings below.    

      Found in an NP file at the Minnesota Historical Society some time ago while on a tangential search, was this clipping of a snubber device for refrigerator cars. I am not how sure wide spread the use of these was however present them here for educational purposes should these ever be found in a photo. Other paperwork in the President's file has an NP Mechanical officer at HQ telling the Como Shops supervisor to order two dozen of these "for testing" in the same 1930's time frame. They look easy enough to reproduce in HO or any other scale. 

   For the rest of you, presented for your amusement....                                                                                                                                                               Jim Dick       Roseville, MN 

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

moderator approval>

Bud Rindfleisch
 

Any reason why this most recent post and others in the past from me have not been moderator approved?

ERDX

Bud Rindfleisch
 

Just curious as to why a post I made recently with an attached photo of an ERDX car was not posted?
    Bud Rindfleisch

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Douglas Harding
 

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/37917

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 9:24 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

The GN society did a kit.   I built one for a friend 

In Chicago.  I am not sure if it is still available   It requires an enormous amount of scratch building.   It turned out pretty cool

Joe Binish

 

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 9:00 PM BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:

Some enterprising individual should do a resin kit for the weed sprayer....

 

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 9:46 AM
To: <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

That would make an interesting train.

 

Paul Doggett 

 

On 11 Nov 2019, at 15:44, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:



Attached are the photos of NALCO cars I have found online (besides the ones you and Steve posted).

 

 

Thanks!
--
Error! Filename not specified.
Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 12:11 AM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

According to a 1966 ORER, Nalco owned 18 such cars numbered 101, 103-105 and 108-121.  Here is a shot I found of 120 working on the Rock Island in Peoria.

 

The tank cars appear to be a mix in both shots including a UTLX car behind 120.

 

It is not clear when these cars were first used, but the NALCO name apparently arrived circa 1959 shortened from National Aluminite Company, according to Wikipedia.

 

Steve Hile

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

I am looking for help in potentially modeling this Nalco weed sprayer train that was running on the C&EI in 1959 as photographed by J. Parker Lamb.  I am looking for ideas on a good HO scale starting box car to modify into the weed sprayer as well as who might have owned the tank cars (I think Nalco owned them from other research I found) what would be good starting models for them as well.  I'm looking for any guesses or hunches or commentary you might have.  
Thanks to all!
Error! Filename not specified.

Attachments:

Re: Earlier runs often better than late runs

dh30973
 

I’ll add my two cents to this discussion. About 13 years ago following his death, I purchased Gordon Cannon’s business of diesel detail parts, Cannon and Company, and continue to run it to date. The vast majority of the molds he created were made old school with a 2D pantograph and small precision milling machine with hand ground cutters in brass. Maybe a dozen were made by someone else for him in 7075 Aluminum by means of CNC machining. The advantage of brass is easy cutting and polishing, with the aluminum being slightly harder in both regards. The brass as Dennis noted is easily damaged by both stuck and partly ejected parts as the mold closes on the part. Repair can be sometimes be done but is tricky. The aluminum is more durable. Some of my brass molds have shot tens of thousands of parts with out any issue while others are getting long on the tooth. A lot seems to depend  on how much draft Gordon included. The ones with very little to no draft are more prone to sticking and therefore getting smashed, while others eject freely. But more draft makes parts with less fidelity, so there is a trade off. 
Apparently the tooling now being done by the big manufacturers and done in China are cut in steel by means of EDM. While those have the capability of millions of shots it is unlikely they will actually ever make that many. Our hobby does no longer support those quantities like the old days of Athearn blue box kits. 

Dave Hussey
Cannon and Company 

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

Joseph
 

The GN society did a kit.   I built one for a friend 
In Chicago.  I am not sure if it is still available   It requires an enormous amount of scratch building.   It turned out pretty cool
Joe Binish


On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 9:00 PM BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:

Some enterprising individual should do a resin kit for the weed sprayer....

 

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 9:46 AM
To: <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

That would make an interesting train.

 

Paul Doggett 



On 11 Nov 2019, at 15:44, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:



Attached are the photos of NALCO cars I have found online (besides the ones you and Steve posted).

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 12:11 AM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

According to a 1966 ORER, Nalco owned 18 such cars numbered 101, 103-105 and 108-121.  Here is a shot I found of 120 working on the Rock Island in Peoria.

 

The tank cars appear to be a mix in both shots including a UTLX car behind 120.

 

It is not clear when these cars were first used, but the NALCO name apparently arrived circa 1959 shortened from National Aluminite Company, according to Wikipedia.

 

Steve Hile

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

I am looking for help in potentially modeling this Nalco weed sprayer train that was running on the C&EI in 1959 as photographed by J. Parker Lamb.  I am looking for ideas on a good HO scale starting box car to modify into the weed sprayer as well as who might have owned the tank cars (I think Nalco owned them from other research I found) what would be good starting models for them as well.  I'm looking for any guesses or hunches or commentary you might have.  
Thanks to all!

Attachments:

Re: Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

Some enterprising individual should do a resin kit for the weed sprayer....

 

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 9:46 AM
To: <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

That would make an interesting train.

 

Paul Doggett 



On 11 Nov 2019, at 15:44, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:



Attached are the photos of NALCO cars I have found online (besides the ones you and Steve posted).

 

 

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

 

 

From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...>
Reply-To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Date: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 12:11 AM
To: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

 

According to a 1966 ORER, Nalco owned 18 such cars numbered 101, 103-105 and 108-121.  Here is a shot I found of 120 working on the Rock Island in Peoria.

 

The tank cars appear to be a mix in both shots including a UTLX car behind 120.

 

It is not clear when these cars were first used, but the NALCO name apparently arrived circa 1959 shortened from National Aluminite Company, according to Wikipedia.

 

Steve Hile

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Nalco Weed Sprayer and tank cars

I am looking for help in potentially modeling this Nalco weed sprayer train that was running on the C&EI in 1959 as photographed by J. Parker Lamb.  I am looking for ideas on a good HO scale starting box car to modify into the weed sprayer as well as who might have owned the tank cars (I think Nalco owned them from other research I found) what would be good starting models for them as well.  I'm looking for any guesses or hunches or commentary you might have.  
Thanks to all!

Attachments: