Date   
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I think we all forget just how hard it was to get accurate information AND DRAWINGS back in those days. Even Irv Athearn boned up big time while following "Real railroad drawings" as the ads used to say.

   No argument, Dennis, but there are also plenty of instances from those days of dedicated modelers providing very complete info packages, and the manufacturer going ahead with something very different, usually simpler and often quite avoidably wrong.

Tony Thompson



Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Elden,

I'd like very much to know more about that tank car you and Greg saw in LA and its history. I have three of those Tichy 4020 tank car kits that have been sitting on a shelf for some time now. I'd be great for any prototype identification or other info you might be able to provide - maybe even a photo?

Thanks,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

To add;

I think we also take for gospel the belief that another's opinion is more than that; it is gospel. Ehhhh, not so much. I was told many, many things as gospel, on PRR freight cars, while I was doing the research, that turned out to be untrue. There are still people I know who swear by stories or "facts", that are not factual.

NO ONE knows the entire picture on freight cars. NO ONE. There were certainly more tank cars produced than anyone knows of, for which no photos exist, and variations were rife. I continue to find photos of cars I have never seen before (see attached). No one has ever done the research on the CISX fleet, I know of. And I've had people tell me their fleet did not contain cars like these. Really? Then what are we looking at in this pic? And what is that car attached to 507? "It didn't exist".

And, both Greg and I saw that tank car in SoCentral LA that was the living embodiment of the large-dome Tichy car, and I stand by its use because I saw it. And it IS a great freight car kit, too!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


And Overland was working in a time period when we were ALL learning about the incredible diversity of freight cars, led by modelers like Hendrickson and Nehrich and many others who sparked the whole RPM movement. So naturally Overland (and the other importers) made a lot of "mistakes" (I can think of some real howlers from Precision Scale) and often didn't reveal very much about the prototypes for their models (if indeed there was one). It was an 'era' of the model industry, and that time has passed at least for hand made brass models.

I take it with a grain of salt. An interesting looking, well made brass tank car that is realistically (if not "accurately") painted and lettered is always welcome in a train of mine... Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right.
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design.

Tim O'Connor





On 11/4/2019 6:47 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:


Overland produced many fine pieces of rolling stock many of which I am proud to have in my collection. Some of their tank cars gave me reason to question them. They produced a three dome model which years ago I finished as a ULTX car.
I was pleased with the model until several years ago when I purchased a Tangent three dome car. The Tangent car looked like an N scale model next to the Overland car. I found some drawings in Mailine Modeler which were smaller than the Overland car.


I also had a problem with their 10,000 gallon car which had a rather large platform on each end of the car. Searched and searched but none found a prototype photo of this car. Again Mainline modeler had a drawing that exactly matched the
Overland car. Possibly Overland used this drawing in producing the car.


My only other disappointment was a Texas & Pacific caboose which was 6' too short. This car was replaced with a Hallmark model that was correct.


These disappointments are avery small percentage of the many fine models that they produced. I recently rounded out my collection with the purchase of an Overland E-1 diesel originally done for the City Of San Francisco. Overland also produced the version that SP converted to the Daylight scheme with the big number boards. Very pleased with this model.


Bill Pardie






Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...> <mailto:tony@...>
Date: 11/4/19 1:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


Bruce Smith wrote:



I was quoting the man… I can find no subsequent change of that sentiment, and it is clear from Richard’s comments that he was not involved in the design of this car.



You are right that Richard had nothing to do with model design and was less than happy about what eventually came from OMI.
At one point he pulled out his prints of all the photos he had sent to OMI. I had a few of those cars, and he had others, which we then looked at. I don't have any doubts of his connection as at least a source of info for OMI.



Tony Thompson
tony@... <mailto:tony@...>







--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:31 AM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
In this case, it wasn't the fact that we were still learning about the prototype, but more obstinate and willful disregarding of the facts.
 
To give Bill Gould his due, the fact that the drawings showed a car with a four course tank is what made the project possible in the first place, because the four course tank made it possible to do as a 'flat kit', which is what Gould wanted to do. This all transpired a little before my time in the industry, but I wonder if the discussion ever got to the point where the experts were told, "I need a four course tank. Find me a prototype with a four course tank that has decent drawings available, and I'll do that instead." I think we all forget just how hard it was to get accurate information AND DRAWINGS back in those days. Even Irv Athearn boned up big time while following "Real railroad drawings" as the ads used to say.

Dennis Storzek

Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Tim O'Connor
 

was Arnt (Arndt?) the fellow who had those great Lake Michigan car ferry models at Naperville?

On 11/5/2019 1:21 PM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Thank you very much for this information Craig!
The puzzle is nearing completion.
If only I could find out what was stecilled on those domes!
Resumé: these 1930-built, 10,000 Gallon insulated double dome cars were in service as NIPX #6, 7 & 8 for the North Indiana Public Service plant in Michigan City, Indiana.
They were already out of the ORER in 1936.
#8 was possibly the only only surviver (the other 2 possibly went back into the GATX pool) at the NIPCO plant as 'captive car' and was photographed there by Arnt Gerritsen.
Who also made drawings of which Overland made a model in ca. 1991.
Pity they didn't issue a painted & letterd version, otherwise it would have been on the BT files as sample for mine.
Now the real challenge is to find the original Arnt Gerritsen picture of NIPX 8, so I can make some decals for it.
In my closets this car is a sample of a lost car, far away from home in 1950 in the Feather River Canyon.
To return home after decades, just in time for Arnt to take pictures of it around 1988.
I understand from Jeff Lemke the OMI model is from 1991.
cheers,
Fred Jansz
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Richard Townsend
 

OTOH, the Tichy tank car, IMHO, is a very good approximation of the many Sinclair 4-course tank cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Nov 5, 2019 10:31 am
Subject: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right. I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design."

"Hate" isn't quite right...more like "bitterly disappointed".

Richard Hendrickson wrote in post #48856 dated 12/15/2005:
"More than one prototype researcher, on learning through the grapevine that Gould was in the process of developing a tank car model, offered assistance and was rebuffed. Bill Gould told me personally that the identity of the prototype was a secret but that he had all the prototype information he needed (and, by implication, would I please go away and stop bothering him). Egged on by Bob Hundman, he thought the drawings were all he needed and neither Gould nor Hundman realized until after the model was completed that there was no prototype for it."

In this case, it wasn't the fact that we were still learning about the prototype, but more obstinate and willful disregarding of the facts.


Ben Hom  

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

To add;

I think we also take for gospel the belief that another's opinion is more than that; it is gospel. Ehhhh, not so much. I was told many, many things as gospel, on PRR freight cars, while I was doing the research, that turned out to be untrue. There are still people I know who swear by stories or "facts", that are not factual.

NO ONE knows the entire picture on freight cars. NO ONE. There were certainly more tank cars produced than anyone knows of, for which no photos exist, and variations were rife. I continue to find photos of cars I have never seen before (see attached). No one has ever done the research on the CISX fleet, I know of. And I've had people tell me their fleet did not contain cars like these. Really? Then what are we looking at in this pic? And what is that car attached to 507? "It didn't exist".

And, both Greg and I saw that tank car in SoCentral LA that was the living embodiment of the large-dome Tichy car, and I stand by its use because I saw it. And it IS a great freight car kit, too!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


And Overland was working in a time period when we were ALL learning about the incredible diversity of freight cars, led by modelers like Hendrickson and Nehrich and many others who sparked the whole RPM movement. So naturally Overland (and the other importers) made a lot of "mistakes" (I can think of some real howlers from Precision Scale) and often didn't reveal very much about the prototypes for their models (if indeed there was one). It was an 'era' of the model industry, and that time has passed at least for hand made brass models.

I take it with a grain of salt. An interesting looking, well made brass tank car that is realistically (if not "accurately") painted and lettered is always welcome in a train of mine... Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right.
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design.

Tim O'Connor





On 11/4/2019 6:47 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:


Overland produced many fine pieces of rolling stock many of which I am proud to have in my collection. Some of their tank cars gave me reason to question them. They produced a three dome model which years ago I finished as a ULTX car.
I was pleased with the model until several years ago when I purchased a Tangent three dome car. The Tangent car looked like an N scale model next to the Overland car. I found some drawings in Mailine Modeler which were smaller than the Overland car.


I also had a problem with their 10,000 gallon car which had a rather large platform on each end of the car. Searched and searched but none found a prototype photo of this car. Again Mainline modeler had a drawing that exactly matched the
Overland car. Possibly Overland used this drawing in producing the car.


My only other disappointment was a Texas & Pacific caboose which was 6' too short. This car was replaced with a Hallmark model that was correct.


These disappointments are avery small percentage of the many fine models that they produced. I recently rounded out my collection with the purchase of an Overland E-1 diesel originally done for the City Of San Francisco. Overland also produced the version that SP converted to the Daylight scheme with the big number boards. Very pleased with this model.


Bill Pardie






Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...> <mailto:tony@...>
Date: 11/4/19 1:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


Bruce Smith wrote:



I was quoting the man… I can find no subsequent change of that sentiment, and it is clear from Richard’s comments that he was not involved in the design of this car.



You are right that Richard had nothing to do with model design and was less than happy about what eventually came from OMI.
At one point he pulled out his prints of all the photos he had sent to OMI. I had a few of those cars, and he had others, which we then looked at. I don't have any doubts of his connection as at least a source of info for OMI.



Tony Thompson
tony@... <mailto:tony@...>







--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right. I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design."

"Hate" isn't quite right...more like "bitterly disappointed".

Richard Hendrickson wrote in post #48856 dated 12/15/2005:
"More than one prototype researcher, on learning through the grapevine that Gould was in the process of developing a tank car model, offered assistance and was rebuffed. Bill Gould told me personally that the identity of the prototype was a secret but that he had all the prototype information he needed (and, by implication, would I please go away and stop bothering him). Egged on by Bob Hundman, he thought the drawings were all he needed and neither Gould nor Hundman realized until after the model was completed that there was no prototype for it."

In this case, it wasn't the fact that we were still learning about the prototype, but more obstinate and willful disregarding of the facts.


Ben Hom  

Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Fred Jansz
 

Thank you very much for this information Craig!
The puzzle is nearing completion.
If only I could find out what was stecilled on those domes!
Resumé: these 1930-built, 10,000 Gallon insulated double dome cars were in service as NIPX #6, 7 & 8 for the North Indiana Public Service plant in Michigan City, Indiana.
They were already out of the ORER in 1936.
#8 was possibly the only only surviver (the other 2 possibly went back into the GATX pool) at the NIPCO plant as 'captive car' and was photographed there by Arnt Gerritsen.
Who also made drawings of which Overland made a model in ca. 1991.
Pity they didn't issue a painted & letterd version, otherwise it would have been on the BT files as sample for mine.
Now the real challenge is to find the original Arnt Gerritsen picture of NIPX 8, so I can make some decals for it.
In my closets this car is a sample of a lost car, far away from home in 1950 in the Feather River Canyon.
To return home after decades, just in time for Arnt to take pictures of it around 1988.
I understand from Jeff Lemke the OMI model is from 1991.
cheers,
Fred Jansz

Re: OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Jon Miller
 

On 11/5/2019 9:59 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit
design.

Yes!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Tim O'Connor
 


And Overland was working in a time period when we were ALL learning about the
incredible diversity of freight cars, led by modelers like Hendrickson and Nehrich
and many others who sparked the whole RPM movement. So naturally Overland (and the
other importers) made a lot of "mistakes" (I can think of some real howlers from
Precision Scale) and often didn't reveal very much about the prototypes for their
models (if indeed there was one). It was an 'era' of the model industry, and that
time has passed at least for hand made brass models.

I take it with a grain of salt. An interesting looking, well made brass tank car
that is realistically (if not "accurately") painted and lettered is always welcome
in a train of mine... Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right.
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit
design.

Tim O'Connor





On 11/4/2019 6:47 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:
Overland produced many fine pieces of rolling stock many of which I am proud to have in my collection.  Some of their tank cars gave me reason to question them.  They produced a three dome model which years ago I finished as a ULTX car.
I was pleased with the model until several years ago when I purchased a Tangent three dome car.  The Tangent car looked like an N scale model next to the Overland car.  I found some drawings in Mailine Modeler which were smaller than the Overland car.

I also had a problem with their 10,000 gallon car which had a rather large platform on each end of the car.  Searched and searched but none found a prototype photo of this car.  Again Mainline modeler had a drawing that exactly matched the
 Overland car.  Possibly Overland used this drawing in producing the car.

My only other disappointment was a Texas & Pacific caboose which was 6' too short.  This car was replaced with a Hallmark model that was correct.

These disappointments are avery small percentage of the many fine models that they produced.  I recently rounded out my collection with the purchase of an Overland E-1 diesel originally done for the City Of San Francisco.  Overland also produced the version that SP converted to the Daylight scheme with the big number boards. Very pleased with this model.

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 11/4/19 1:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Bruce Smith wrote:

I was quoting the man… I can find no subsequent change of that sentiment, and it is clear from Richard’s comments that he was not involved in the design of this car.

     You are right that Richard had nothing to do with model design and was less than happy about what eventually came from OMI.
      At one point he pulled out his prints of all the photos he had sent to OMI. I had a few of those cars, and he had others, which we then looked at. I don't have any doubts of his connection as at least a source of info for OMI.

Tony Thompson




--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Yep!  Any luck making contact with Mac Beard lately?  Al

On November 4, 2019 at 11:10 PM Joseph <Mstl852@...> wrote:

Think of the fun we will have!!

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:08 PM sherman4863 via Groups.Io <sherman4863= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
The flour mill in Franklin, MN was used in the 50's, after it quit making flour, to grind cobs and shipped in boxcars to Shakopee where it was bagged and sold for floor dry.  Sam Sherman 

 

 


 

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

Jon Miller
 

On 11/5/2019 7:13 AM, james murrie via Groups.Io wrote:
Somewhere I have a 1943 or 1944

    I also remember that in the late 40s my relatives in SD used corn cobs for fuel in the kitchen stove.  Don't know if they were delivered or collected from the farm.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

james murrie
 

Somewhere I have a 1943 or 1944 Illinois license plate that my father told me was made from corn cobs to save steel.  It's definitely some kind of "wood" that was then painted and lettered.
Jim Murrie

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

O Fenton Wells
 

Corn cobs were also used for grinding and polishing things like poker chips.
Fenton

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 11:02 PM Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote:
Doug,

If you zoom in the resolution is sufficient to show that the truck is full of cobs. Corn shellers are larger and more mechanically complicated than the grinder/blower on the back of this truck. 

Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Boxcar With Roof Hatches

Marty McGuirk
 

Add Central Vermont to the list.


On Nov 2, 2019, at 11:22 PM, Jim Gates via Groups.Io <jim.gates@...> wrote:



3M had several that were at home on the Santa Fe's Corona branch.

Jim Gates

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 4:51:29 PM CDT, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Boxcar With Roof Hatches

I've seen a few photos of boxcars with roof hatches for loading such commodities as aluminum dross, cement, various clays, lime and spent grain.

All of the photos I've seen are associated with shippers in the Southeast and Midwest.

Would such boxcars have served shippers in the Southwest to any degree?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Craig Wilson
 

Tom Marsh lived in downstate Indiana.  However his draftsman, Arnt Gerritsen, lived near Valparaiso in northwest Indiana.  He drew many, many projects that got produced as Overland Models and some that didn't.  Arnt had a fondness for the out-of-the-ordinary and would venture out to measure and photograph when he found one.  This particular car resided at the NIPCO plant in Michigan City Indiana.  It was a "captive car" there and no one that Arnt talked to could tell him how long it had been there or what its previously life had been.  Arnt considered it a one-of-kind-prototype, which it may indeed be.

Arnt drew projects that interested him on his own time and filed the drawings away.  Because OMI was his employer, Tom Marsh had first right of refusal on these and this tank car may have caught Tom's eye and he decided to built it.  Another one of these "private efforts" resulted in the Speedwitch AA Single Sheath boxcar kit.  The prototype cars were all retired in 1962-63 and dismantled, save for couple door-and-a-half cars what went into MofW service.  Then a fully intact single door car was discovered sitting in the DPW yard in Cadillac Michigan and being used as a storage shed.  Arnt and I got permission to go measure and photograph it.  Arnt created a beautiful set of scale drawings which went in the drawer until Ted Culotta saw them and borrowed the drawings for the Speedwitch model.

Craig Wilson

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

Joseph
 

Sorry, meant to be off list.  Time for me to get some shut eye
Joe Binish

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:10 PM Joseph via Groups.Io <Mstl852=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Think of the fun we will have!!

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:08 PM sherman4863 via Groups.Io <sherman4863=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
The flour mill in Franklin, MN was used in the 50's, after it quit making flour, to grind cobs and shipped in boxcars to Shakopee where it was bagged and sold for floor dry.  Sam Sherman 

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

Joseph
 

Think of the fun we will have!!

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:08 PM sherman4863 via Groups.Io <sherman4863=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
The flour mill in Franklin, MN was used in the 50's, after it quit making flour, to grind cobs and shipped in boxcars to Shakopee where it was bagged and sold for floor dry.  Sam Sherman 

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

sherman4863
 

The flour mill in Franklin, MN was used in the 50's, after it quit making flour, to grind cobs and shipped in boxcars to Shakopee where it was bagged and sold for floor dry.  Sam Sherman 

Re: PM Box loading with ground corn cobs.

Matt Smith
 

Doug,

If you zoom in the resolution is sufficient to show that the truck is full of cobs. Corn shellers are larger and more mechanically complicated than the grinder/blower on the back of this truck. 

Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL