Date   

Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Dennis Storzek
 

Lots of things used to be shipped in barrels at one time. Another example would be nails, which used to come in small size barrels called kegs. Last time I saw a nail keg was in the sixties while in high school. The wood shop instructor and I were down in the basement under the shops looking for some hardwood planks for a project, and off to the side was a row of kegs with different size nails. The typical high school wood shop doesn't use many nails, and now I'm wondering if these were still from the original stock-up order from when the school was built in the thirties.

Railroad spikes and track bolts still come in kegs, although the modern version are short steel drums. For that matter, a lot of smaller foundry product was shipped in barrels at one time; barrels are stronger than crates, and easier to move by hand.

Strangest one I remember was receiving several factory type lunchroom tables manufactured by the Chicago Hardware Foundry back about 1975, and the leg castings and swing arms for the seats were packed in fiberboard drums, which are also a modern derivative of the barrel. Traditional practices die hard.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Douglas Harding
 

There is a photo of a cement barrel on this site: http://northampton.thelehighvalleypress.com/2019/07/10/remembering-coplay-cement-company-progress-industry

 

What does a barrel of cement weight? There are approximately 4 bags of regular cement to a barrel or, the weight of 376 lbs.

 

Cement was shipped in covered hoppers beginning in the 50's. Prior to the use of covered hoppers, cement was shipped in boxcars, in barrels, bags, or even loose. Can you image shoveling out a boxcar of loose cement? Andrews Concrete Products of Mason City, received bulk cement via rail, ie boxcars and later covered hoppers from the Lehigh and Northwestern States plants, which were less than four miles away. Andrews sits just north of the M&StL Engine House/Turntable area in Mason City. The floor in the engine house was poured with "leftovers" from the Redi-mix trucks returning to Andrews for refills.

 

Here is a page from a government study. It mentions cement shipped in steel drums and wood barrels, as well as bulk and bags.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 7:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

 

 

My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.

 

Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.

 

Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.

 

I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.

 

Bob Chaparro

 

Hemet, CA

 


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Fran,
I checked in my January 1952 ORER (I model 1952), and most large railroads' listings have a "Recapitulation of Car Equipment" at the end of the main listings of cars by number series.  The Recapitulation summarizes the railroad's cars by AAR class (X = boxcars, G = gondolas, etc.) by (interior) length, and it also gives the number of cars of that length, the each car group's cubic foot capacity and the capacity in pounds.  While this doesn't give you quite the summary you were looking for, it is another starting point.

I usually tackle problems such as yours by listing the RRs on each end of the segment I model and the industries they served that are of interest.  (In this case, the industries that ship or receives stuff in gons.)  For example, I know that the B&O served the big steel mill at Sparrows Point, so having some idea of what that mill produced would help.  If it produced rolled structural steel shapes, then (mostly) B&O mill gondolas from 41' to 65' long would be appropriate.  Pipe or steel plate requires different gons.  As another for instance, if the mill used scrap steel as part of its raw material, then shorter gons from RRs to the west and south with scrap loads make sense.  I suspect you get the drift.

Rather than trying to do this all at once and get it perfect (impossible for most of us mortals), I'd suggest doing a study of your connecting and neighboring RRs, then researching the industries they served (Google and Wikipedia are your friends), going through those RRs' Recapitulation listings in the ORER, and do some thoughtful estimating.  That could give you a reasonable beginning fleet of gondolas.  As time goes on, you'll probably come across more information that will help you grow your understanding, and you can modify your fleet over time.  If visitors or other critics object to what they see, for instance, ask them why, and use their knowledge to help you refine your fleet.  ...  I decided to model East Portland and Portland OR in 1952 about 5 years ago, and I started looking for information to help.  My collection of photos and information was initially small, but it has probably grown 3 or 4 times larger since I started, most of it from the Internet and publications.

I hope this helps.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Jack Mullen
 

Fran,
The group files hold quite a lot of data about the national freight car fleet, and not all of it just deals with boxcars.
This file might be of use:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/1953%20CARS%20IN%20SERVICE%202.xls
With gons, be aware that there's a devil lurking in the details. Mill gons tend to behave more like boxcars, a somewhat free-running nationwide pool so the road-name distribution should be in proportion to the proportion of the national fleet. However, gons used primarily in bulk material dervice tend to move more locally or regionally, so the modelled fleet of these should reflect that.
Since you have a '56 ORER, you might research the top 6 or 10 largest fleets, pluse other significant railroads in your area. An hour or two with the ER should put you in good shape to choose available models.  

Jack Mullen


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Bob Chaparro
 

 

My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.

 

Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.

 

Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.

 

I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.

 

Bob Chaparro

 

Hemet, CA

 


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Donald B. Valentine
 

Thank you Bob. My undrstanding from some of the oldtimers is that raw cement was shipped in barrels at 
least up into the early 1930's, if not all the way up to the beginning of WW II, but I've never seen any written
or photographic confirmation of it. The barrels I was told about were said to be normal, banded wood stave
barrels as opposed to something like 55 gal. steel drums. 

During the summer after I finished university I worked for the Vermont Highway Dept. as a concrete inspector 
while waiting to go into the military. This was back when what is now the Vermont Agency of Transportation 
knew how to build highways, an art they have since forgotten. Four of us were based at the old Miller Ready-Mix
plant off of US Rt. #4 on the New Hampshire bank of the Connectcut River opposite White River Jct., VT. The 
site had apparently been part of the Boston & Maine RR's original yard in the area before the so-called New Yard 
was constructed south of the White River Jct. depot. Thus the lease had a requirement that a certin percentage
of the inbound cement had to come by rail rather than Ft. Edwards Express trucks. All of the cement originated 
in the Glen Falls, NY area and that coming by rail came in early D&H Greenville 70 ton covered hoppers. When 
full the cement was still roughly 3 ft.below the roof of the car....as I found out when it became my turn to pulll a 
sample before an arriving load could be emptied into the storage silo. We dd not have a steel rod with a cn or 
scoop attached as one would have thought would be used. I was glad to have leather boots on my feet that day 
as I had to jump down into the car through an open hatch and fill a small pail with cement before clambering back 
out again withi it. Wih that dusty atmosphere the shower was a welcome site that evening! During a summer 
school vacation period some fifteen years ago I trucked cement from Quebec to Vermont in air differential 
pressure trailers. That's an awful lot easier way to unload such material from either a truck trailer or a railroad car.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar

Tony Thompson
 

Donald Valentine wrote:

Today the ony thing that seems to change is the pattern of graffitti on the cars. When I see that I wish each car had a 50 cal. turret on top of it with a gunner having a shoot to kill order for anyone seen approaching the train with a spray can.  Damned sick of the irresponsibe nonsense with spray cans to the point where I'd like to see the Federally outlawed.

       Well, if we're going to discuss swimming up river against a good current, ancient Greek writers complained about writing on the walls, and there is plenty of Roman graffiti on the walls at Pompeii. It ain't exactly a new observation.
         But it really doesn't matter how you like or don't like it. It simply IS the reality today. If you model any time after 1980 (well past this list of course, as is Don's comment in the first place), you can either model reality or fantasy.
        But let's return to those halcyon days of yesteryear, before 1960 reared its head . . .

Tony Thompson




Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Clark Propst
 

Not being familiar with your area I can only question are your trains all shorts or are there some through cars? Shorts would be dictated by your customers. Through car would be coming or going from other parts of the system or being interchanged with another RR.
Train lists and/or photos of trains in the area are vital.
I've attached a photo I dug up while putting together my CCB talk. The engine is being turned on a wye at the end of the line. I admired the NYC gon and also wondered what it was doing there. I think I mentioned how I'd like one. Well a friend told me they were about to start on a Sunshine gondola kit they'd bought from a collection at Caboose Stop Hobbies sometime prior. I asked about it and sure enough it was the car in the photo! I bought it and built it. I also have a Sunshine PRR gon. I use them to haul pipe or culverts for the RR or for a city, county  yard along the line. Other than those two the others are local roads that would bring in coal from mines in Ill or further east.
CW Propst


Photo: B&O M15K

 

To follow in Bob's footsteps,

Photo: B&O M15K

Another Doug Lilly photo:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149706553@N05/49315460871/in/album-72157689269937726/

Caption:   I'll let each of you read it for yourselves.

This car looks to have the replacement frame.
This car also has the 3 section end ( with a splice plate on top section ). I've seen or have photos of these cars with
3 section, 2 section and single section ends, 2 or 1 grab above the ladder, and split air tank or regular AB
brake components.

Has anyone ever done a thorough article of the variations on these interesting cars? There seems to have been
quite a bit of evolution as these cars were constructed.

The Mount Clare Shops / Funaro and the Chicagoland Fox Valley kitbash M15K's both have the single section ends.

Thank you,
Dan Smith

 


Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar

Donald B. Valentine
 

Chuck Cover wrote: "I bought the kit was because they are a bit shorter in height than most automobile boxcars and give the consist and different look.  We don’t want all 10’4” 40’ auto boxcars do we?"

   That's the the same reasoning I use to buy most house cars. The different hsights, different styles of roof and different car
construction all contribute to the variety of freight cars we used to see in freight trains so I buy as long as the car is one for a 
road whose cars were known to frequent my area. Today the ony thing that seems to change is the pattern of graffitti on the 
cars. When I see that I wish each car had a 50 cal. turret on top of it with a gunner having a shoot to kill order for anyone seen approaching the train with a spray can.  Damned sick of the irresponsibe nonsense with spray cans to the point where I'd like
to see the Federally outlawed.

Just my point of view, Don Valentine


Re: Photo: B&O Tank Car X10

Bruce Smith
 

That's not the only clue 😉  

As for the design, it's prewar all right, pre WWII, and pre WWI!  The single rows of rivets generally data a tank car to 1917 or earlier. They are correct about the car being a UTLX built car, it is a UTLX type X.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 1:20 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: B&O Tank Car X10
 
The car appears to me to be missing a knuckle on the left end.  This suggests  the car may be in stationary service. 
Chuck Peck

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:31 PM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: B&O Tank Car X10

A Doug Lilly photo:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149706553@N05/27073486079/in/album-72157689269937726/

Caption: "The Baltimore & Ohio kept company-service tank cars at some of its engine facilities, presumably for fuel storage. Photos exist showing cars that appear to be of later vintage, but this example at Glenwood Yard near Pittsburgh looks to be of a prewar design. With its stirrup steps mounted away from the corners and transverse brake wheel, this care has features consistent with UTLX tank cars from the 1930’s."

I assume the presence of single vertical rivet rows along the body indicates this tank car was built early in the 1900s.

So what do we have here?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Adjusting the gondola fleet

Fran Giacoma
 

I am in the process of right sizing my freight car fleet due to a slight operational change on my HO B&O Shenandoah SD layout. It is set in late September 1956 and I use an October 1956 ORER (plus other publications) to make sure my fleet is accurate. 

I am looking for a list of railroads and the number of gondola cars they operated during the specified time period in order to try to accurately portray the right amount of them in my fleet; in other words, which road names would you most likely see on the layout. I would adjust this by the industries that use them, B&O interchange partners and locations, and the general locale of what is being modeled (northern Virginia and West Virginia starting at Harpers Ferry and running south west). The ORER does not contain this list; it has lists for other types of cars.

 

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. 

 

Fran Giacoma


Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

Schuyler Larrabee
 

And if he can be contacted by email . . .

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy Hammill
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 4:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

 

From the catalog of photos he gave me at CCB:

Keith Retterer
1442 East Bank Dr.
Marietta, GA 30068

Now I’m curious as to what else he has...

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

Randy Hammill
 

From the catalog of photos he gave me at CCB:

Keith Retterer
1442 East Bank Dr.
Marietta, GA 30068

Now I’m curious as to what else he has...

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: Priming w/Yellow

Aley, Jeff A
 

Personally tried it?  No.  But there was an article in MR about it.  IIRC, the Liquitex airbrush thinner and Liquitex Flow-aid were the keys to making it work.  I can’t find an online index to MR (I tried…) or I would cite the exact issue.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 8:36 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Priming w/Yellow

 

  Has anyone tried using any of the craft acrylics in their air brush?  There
are many selections of color.  Be careful to not "go cheaper" - for most of
them there is a direct relationship between the amount of pigment in the
bottle and the cost and usually (especially for airbrushing?) more pigment
is better since you are thinning it out so much.
  I use craft acrylics for weathering washes all the time but haven't tried
shooting it.
  The bottle above looks exactly like the craft paints I buy at Michael''s or
other such places.  Suck it up - just because you are the only man in 
the store doesn't mean you have to wear time of the month protection 
to go in.
                                                                                 - Jim


Re: T & P 40915

Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...>
 

These are actually Northern Pacific Ry. Joint Facility Photos, I don't have the notes, but they would say "G: served by xyz RR & NP."

They have every joint track, and industry photographed and labeled.  

So you could send a message saying "page X, Item B the crossover that you pay 43.234% of costs has been repaired, here is the bill"

Neat books, I have one for the Minneapolis/St. Paul area in my collection.

-Hudson


Re: Photos of B&O M-8 box cars

Eric Hansmann
 

Eric,

 

I’ve been gathering photos and details on these cars. The M-8 class is largely forgotten, even though the cars dominated the fleet for several years. I’ll be in touch off-list.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Lombard
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 9:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photos of B&O M-8 box cars

 

Good Morning Fellow Shut-ins...

I am working on an overall history of the 21,000 class M-8 box cars built for the B&O, B&OSW, and P&W.  The majority were built by Pullman as documented by Eric Neubauer. They were in service from 7-1896 to 1929 with original wood underframe. About 12,400 were rebuilt to steel center sills, M-8B, -8C, or underframe, M-8A, as well as US Safety Appliance Standards over 1912-1921. The last of these, #185901, M-8C, is listed in the 1-1940 B&O Summary of Equipment. These rebuilds  were accomplished by the B&O and several commercial builders.

It would be very helpful to me if some of you might share some photo scans and or point me to sources for same. Equipment diagrams indicate "iron roof". What did that look like? An additional 60 of M-8 dimensions were built as B&OSW 17700-17759 with double side doors over door openings of 10-0 and 10-8. What did these look like? They were renumbered to B&O 93000-93059 and rebuilt to steel center sills etc. as B&O 190600-190651. Some were also rebuilt to M-8B.

Advance thanks for any help you can share with me,

Eric Lombard
At home in Homewood, IL


Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

For your reference . . . 

On March 17, 2020 at 2:03 PM Bob Chapman <chapbob611@...> wrote:

Clark Propst writes:
I built a C&O model years ago using a Des Plaines Viking roof kit. I used Keith Reterrer (sp) ends and doors....


A bit later, Sunshine issued the car as a kit, an enticing prototype to lighten my billfold at Naperville. No five-year wait, and the modeling opportunity -- priceless.    :)       I did the transition era paint/lettering scheme -- the as-delivered black was pretty much gone by then. And yes, it has avoided weathering shop so far....

Regards,
Bob Chapman



 


Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends

Clark Propst
 

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:03 AM, Bob Chapman wrote:
No five-year wait, and the modeling opportunity -- priceless.    :)  
Nice model Bob.
Caboose Stop Hobbies in Cedar Falls Ia. had one or two of the kits from a collection for $25 for a couple years! I didn't see them last time we were there...Although there was so much other stuff stacked in front of where they were it's hard to tell? Guess I shouldn't have passed on them?
CW Propst


Re: T & P 40915

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Any surmise what the G written on the negative, on the building, is all about?

Neat photo.


Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 1:40 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] T & P 40915

 

T & P 40915 circa 1926 possibly Puyallup, WA.