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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
Dennis Storzek
Lots of things used to be shipped in barrels at one time. Another example would be nails, which used to come in small size barrels called kegs. Last time I saw a nail keg was in the sixties while in high school. The wood shop instructor and I were down in the basement under the shops looking for some hardwood planks for a project, and off to the side was a row of kegs with different size nails. The typical high school wood shop doesn't use many nails, and now I'm wondering if these were still from the original stock-up order from when the school was built in the thirties.
Railroad spikes and track bolts still come in kegs, although the modern version are short steel drums. For that matter, a lot of smaller foundry product was shipped in barrels at one time; barrels are stronger than crates, and easier to move by hand. Strangest one I remember was receiving several factory type lunchroom tables manufactured by the Chicago Hardware Foundry back about 1975, and the leg castings and swing arms for the seats were packed in fiberboard drums, which are also a modern derivative of the barrel. Traditional practices die hard. Dennis Storzek
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
There is a photo of a cement barrel on this site: http://northampton.thelehighvalleypress.com/2019/07/10/remembering-coplay-cement-company-progress-industry
What does a barrel of cement weight? There are approximately 4 bags of regular cement to a barrel or, the weight of 376 lbs.
Cement was shipped in covered hoppers beginning in the 50's. Prior to the use of covered hoppers, cement was shipped in boxcars, in barrels, bags, or even loose. Can you image shoveling out a boxcar of loose cement? Andrews Concrete Products of Mason City, received bulk cement via rail, ie boxcars and later covered hoppers from the Lehigh and Northwestern States plants, which were less than four miles away. Andrews sits just north of the M&StL Engine House/Turntable area in Mason City. The floor in the engine house was poured with "leftovers" from the Redi-mix trucks returning to Andrews for refills.
Here is a page from a government study. It mentions cement shipped in steel drums and wood barrels, as well as bulk and bags.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.
Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.
Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.
I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Todd Sullivan
Hi Fran,
I checked in my January 1952 ORER (I model 1952), and most large railroads' listings have a "Recapitulation of Car Equipment" at the end of the main listings of cars by number series. The Recapitulation summarizes the railroad's cars by AAR class (X = boxcars, G = gondolas, etc.) by (interior) length, and it also gives the number of cars of that length, the each car group's cubic foot capacity and the capacity in pounds. While this doesn't give you quite the summary you were looking for, it is another starting point. I usually tackle problems such as yours by listing the RRs on each end of the segment I model and the industries they served that are of interest. (In this case, the industries that ship or receives stuff in gons.) For example, I know that the B&O served the big steel mill at Sparrows Point, so having some idea of what that mill produced would help. If it produced rolled structural steel shapes, then (mostly) B&O mill gondolas from 41' to 65' long would be appropriate. Pipe or steel plate requires different gons. As another for instance, if the mill used scrap steel as part of its raw material, then shorter gons from RRs to the west and south with scrap loads make sense. I suspect you get the drift. Rather than trying to do this all at once and get it perfect (impossible for most of us mortals), I'd suggest doing a study of your connecting and neighboring RRs, then researching the industries they served (Google and Wikipedia are your friends), going through those RRs' Recapitulation listings in the ORER, and do some thoughtful estimating. That could give you a reasonable beginning fleet of gondolas. As time goes on, you'll probably come across more information that will help you grow your understanding, and you can modify your fleet over time. If visitors or other critics object to what they see, for instance, ask them why, and use their knowledge to help you refine your fleet. ... I decided to model East Portland and Portland OR in 1952 about 5 years ago, and I started looking for information to help. My collection of photos and information was initially small, but it has probably grown 3 or 4 times larger since I started, most of it from the Internet and publications. I hope this helps. Todd Sullivan
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Jack Mullen
Fran,
The group files hold quite a lot of data about the national freight car fleet, and not all of it just deals with boxcars. This file might be of use: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/1953%20CARS%20IN%20SERVICE%202.xls With gons, be aware that there's a devil lurking in the details. Mill gons tend to behave more like boxcars, a somewhat free-running nationwide pool so the road-name distribution should be in proportion to the proportion of the national fleet. However, gons used primarily in bulk material dervice tend to move more locally or regionally, so the modelled fleet of these should reflect that. Since you have a '56 ORER, you might research the top 6 or 10 largest fleets, pluse other significant railroads in your area. An hour or two with the ER should put you in good shape to choose available models. Jack Mullen
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.
Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.
Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.
I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
Donald B. Valentine
Thank you Bob. My undrstanding from some of the oldtimers is that raw cement was shipped in barrels at least up into the early 1930's, if not all the way up to the beginning of WW II, but I've never seen any written or photographic confirmation of it. The barrels I was told about were said to be normal, banded wood stave barrels as opposed to something like 55 gal. steel drums. During the summer after I finished university I worked for the Vermont Highway Dept. as a concrete inspector while waiting to go into the military. This was back when what is now the Vermont Agency of Transportation knew how to build highways, an art they have since forgotten. Four of us were based at the old Miller Ready-Mix plant off of US Rt. #4 on the New Hampshire bank of the Connectcut River opposite White River Jct., VT. The site had apparently been part of the Boston & Maine RR's original yard in the area before the so-called New Yard was constructed south of the White River Jct. depot. Thus the lease had a requirement that a certin percentage of the inbound cement had to come by rail rather than Ft. Edwards Express trucks. All of the cement originated in the Glen Falls, NY area and that coming by rail came in early D&H Greenville 70 ton covered hoppers. When full the cement was still roughly 3 ft.below the roof of the car....as I found out when it became my turn to pulll a sample before an arriving load could be emptied into the storage silo. We dd not have a steel rod with a cn or scoop attached as one would have thought would be used. I was glad to have leather boots on my feet that day as I had to jump down into the car through an open hatch and fill a small pail with cement before clambering back out again withi it. Wih that dusty atmosphere the shower was a welcome site that evening! During a summer school vacation period some fifteen years ago I trucked cement from Quebec to Vermont in air differential pressure trailers. That's an awful lot easier way to unload such material from either a truck trailer or a railroad car. Cordially, Don Valentine
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Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar
Tony Thompson
Donald Valentine wrote:
Well, if we're going to discuss swimming up river against a good current, ancient Greek writers complained about writing on the walls, and there is plenty of Roman graffiti on the walls at Pompeii. It ain't exactly a new observation. But it really doesn't matter how you like or don't like it. It simply IS the reality today. If you model any time after 1980 (well past this list of course, as is Don's comment in the first place), you can either model reality or fantasy. But let's return to those halcyon days of yesteryear, before 1960 reared its head . . . Tony Thompson
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Clark Propst
Not being familiar with your area I can only question are your trains all shorts or are there some through cars? Shorts would be dictated by your customers. Through car would be coming or going from other parts of the system or being interchanged with another RR.
Train lists and/or photos of trains in the area are vital. I've attached a photo I dug up while putting together my CCB talk. The engine is being turned on a wye at the end of the line. I admired the NYC gon and also wondered what it was doing there. I think I mentioned how I'd like one. Well a friend told me they were about to start on a Sunshine gondola kit they'd bought from a collection at Caboose Stop Hobbies sometime prior. I asked about it and sure enough it was the car in the photo! I bought it and built it. I also have a Sunshine PRR gon. I use them to haul pipe or culverts for the RR or for a city, county yard along the line. Other than those two the others are local roads that would bring in coal from mines in Ill or further east. CW Propst
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Photo: B&O M15K
To follow in Bob's footsteps,
Photo: B&O M15K Another Doug Lilly photo:
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Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar
Donald B. Valentine
Chuck Cover wrote: "I bought the kit was because they are a bit shorter in height than most automobile boxcars and give the consist and different look. We don’t want all 10’4” 40’ auto boxcars do we?" That's the the same reasoning I use to buy most house cars. The different hsights, different styles of roof and different car construction all contribute to the variety of freight cars we used to see in freight trains so I buy as long as the car is one for a road whose cars were known to frequent my area. Today the ony thing that seems to change is the pattern of graffitti on the cars. When I see that I wish each car had a 50 cal. turret on top of it with a gunner having a shoot to kill order for anyone seen approaching the train with a spray can. Damned sick of the irresponsibe nonsense with spray cans to the point where I'd like to see the Federally outlawed. Just my point of view, Don Valentine
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Re: Photo: B&O Tank Car X10
That's not the only clue 😉
As for the design, it's prewar all right, pre WWII, and pre WWI! The single rows of rivets generally data a tank car to 1917 or earlier. They are correct about the car being a UTLX built car, it is a UTLX type X.
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 1:20 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: B&O Tank Car X10
The car appears to me to be missing a knuckle on the left end. This suggests the car may be in stationary service.
Chuck Peck
On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 12:31 PM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
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Adjusting the gondola fleet
Fran Giacoma
I am in the process of right sizing my freight car fleet due to a slight operational change on my HO B&O Shenandoah SD layout. It is set in late September 1956 and I use an October 1956 ORER (plus other publications) to make sure my fleet is accurate. I am looking for a list of railroads and the number of gondola cars they operated during the specified time period in order to try to accurately portray the right amount of them in my fleet; in other words, which road names would you most likely see on the layout. I would adjust this by the industries that use them, B&O interchange partners and locations, and the general locale of what is being modeled (northern Virginia and West Virginia starting at Harpers Ferry and running south west). The ORER does not contain this list; it has lists for other types of cars.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Fran Giacoma
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Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends
Schuyler Larrabee
And if he can be contacted by email . . .
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy Hammill
From the catalog of photos he gave me at CCB:
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Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends
Randy Hammill
From the catalog of photos he gave me at CCB:
Keith Retterer 1442 East Bank Dr. Marietta, GA 30068 Now I’m curious as to what else he has... Randy -- — Randy Hammill Prototype Junction http://prototypejunction.com Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954 http://newbritainstation.com
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Re: Priming w/Yellow
Aley, Jeff A
Personally tried it? No. But there was an article in MR about it. IIRC, the Liquitex airbrush thinner and Liquitex Flow-aid were the keys to making it work. I can’t find an online index to MR (I tried…) or I would cite the exact issue.
Regards,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 8:36 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Priming w/Yellow
Has anyone tried using any of the craft acrylics in their air brush? There
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Re: T & P 40915
Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...>
These are actually Northern Pacific Ry. Joint Facility Photos, I don't have the notes, but they would say "G: served by xyz RR & NP."
They have every joint track, and industry photographed and labeled. So you could send a message saying "page X, Item B the crossover that you pay 43.234% of costs has been repaired, here is the bill" Neat books, I have one for the Minneapolis/St. Paul area in my collection. -Hudson
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Re: Photos of B&O M-8 box cars
Eric Hansmann
Eric,
I’ve been gathering photos and details on these cars. The M-8 class is largely forgotten, even though the cars dominated the fleet for several years. I’ll be in touch off-list.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Lombard
Good Morning Fellow Shut-ins...
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Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends
al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
For your reference . . .
On March 17, 2020 at 2:03 PM Bob Chapman <chapbob611@...> wrote:
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Re: New '37 AAR box cars with Deco and NSC-2 ends
Clark Propst
On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:03 AM, Bob Chapman wrote:
No five-year wait, and the modeling opportunity -- priceless. :)Nice model Bob. Caboose Stop Hobbies in Cedar Falls Ia. had one or two of the kits from a collection for $25 for a couple years! I didn't see them last time we were there...Although there was so much other stuff stacked in front of where they were it's hard to tell? Guess I shouldn't have passed on them? CW Propst
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Re: T & P 40915
Schuyler Larrabee
Any surmise what the G written on the negative, on the building, is all about? Neat photo.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hudson Leighton
T & P 40915 circa 1926 possibly Puyallup, WA.
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