Hi Doc,

I have used Scalecoat I directly over styrene for years with no issues. Use the recommending dilution for spraying and apply lightly.

See you in Cocoa,
Bill Darnaby

Mark Morgan wrote:

I have four of the Branchline kits and thought they would be a quick

build until a photo gave it away. I appreciate your help.

Mark,

Unfortunately for modelers the B&O did not stop specifying Duryea
underframes until the mid-1950s so in the steam-transition era almost
all B&O freight cars had Duryea underframes. One of the few exceptions
were the alternate AAR flatcars, classes P-24, P-25, P-31 as offered by
InterMountain in HO scale.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Riddell" <jriddell@...> wrote:

Dennis,

There is an informative half-page ad on page 1066 of the 1916 CYC for the
"Refrigerator Heater & Ventilator Car Co." of St. Paul, Minnesota.

"Moore System -- Refrigerator - Heater - Ventilator"

A diagram shows the system.
It includes a hard coal-fired heater underslung which "keeps load free from
frost at 40 below zero for 15 cents a day."
Fresh air intake at bottom of the underslung heater. Heater is operated from
outside the car.
Internal air is also circulated through the heater.
There is a roof stack directly above the heater to release gas and smoke.

John Riddell

Thanks John. That sounds like the equipment we're seeing in the one poor photo (which I can post, if someone is really interested). The better photo, which list member Rob Kirkham discovered in an archives in Vancouver, shows the other side of the car, but now that I know what I'm looking for, the bottom of the box just barely shows under the fish belly center sill on that car also. There is no smoke jack evident in either photo, but perhaps by 1921 they decided this feature was unnecessary, or else the vent was very flat to the roof.

The fact that the heater was connected to the interior air space also jibes with how Ken describes the box appearing to be part of a circulating system in the patent drawings... without mechanical fans, convection driven by the heater would be the logical way to circulate the warm air through the load.

Is there any chance we could obtain a scan of the ad? There may be space to include it in the book, and there should be no copyright issues, considering its age.


Dennis

Denny,

My experience is that I can apply any paint over any other and onto
any surface ... providing.

1) The paint is laid on in very light coats - building up any one color/type
carefully and slowly (several light passes - potentially even letting a
prior coat of the same type/color dry 10-15 minutes before going
back to do an additional layer). The first coat of any color/type is
always the one that you have to be the most careful with. I call this
the "never get too much thinner on the surface at one time" stage.

2) If you are changing paint types - such as your wanting to put Scalecoat
over Floquil - then the prior coat -must- be completely dry. As in at
least 24 hours between types. I use the "smell test" for lacquers and
enamels ... hold the model up near your nose, if you can smell the
paint ... at all ... it isn't dry yet - then, after you can't smell it any more
I still add a half day or more before going on to the next type. If the
paint is an acrylic then I don't trust the smell test and just leave it long
enough that I'm -certain- the acrylic is fully cured.

Take a small piece of styrene - or use the bottom of the car - and apply
some of each of the paints, properly thinned for air brushing, to the
'unprotected' surface ... using a brush or eye-dropper ... I'm talking about
getting it "wet" with the paint ... to see if the thinner will attack the styrene.
If you have the time wait for those to dry (at least a day, more is better)
and then put another 'drop' of each of the paints over the other one. You
will quickly find out if you have a problem you have to be careful about...
- Jim

I have applied Scalecoat I over flowquil primer on several projects and it has worked very well. If you are applying a a light colors like orange, red or yellow, I suggest you apply white first before you apply your final color. The under-coats do affect the final color of the scale coat I and II colors, and white is a good under-coat to bring out the desired color.
   I have also painted Scalecoat II white as a primer (protector) color before painting a Scalecoat I color. This also worked well.
 
Gregory Severson

Dennis,

There is an informative half-page ad on page 1066 of the 1916 CYC for the
"Refrigerator Heater & Ventilator Car Co." of St. Paul, Minnesota.

"Moore System -- Refrigerator - Heater - Ventilator"

A diagram shows the system.
It includes a hard coal-fired heater underslung which "keeps load free from
frost at 40 below zero for 15 cents a day."
Fresh air intake at bottom of the underslung heater. Heater is operated from
outside the car.
Internal air is also circulated through the heater.
There is a roof stack directly above the heater to release gas and smoke.

John Riddell

Denny --

Like you, I have a cache of Scalecoat I (mostly those great Pennsy and NYC
colors). In general, I have had decent success using Scalecoat I over
Floquil primer on styrene.

But beware that this is a form of Russian Roulette, and that somewhere in
the revolver is a bullet that will get you. Make sure your primer is well
cured before spraying the Scalecoat I. And do a test patch inside the model
to make sure that bad things aren't about to happen. And if the styrene in
your model appears punky, it probably is a poor risk for Scalecoat I (the
old Cannonball Car Shops freight cars and E&B Valley passenger cars come to
mind).

Good luck!
Bob Chapman

count of car ownership thru Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 07,
total 257
GN 53 - (37 were log flats that don't go to the WP)
ATSF 28
PFE 16
DRGW 15
PRR 10
NP 9
SP 8
CBQ 7
FGE MILW UP WFE WP 6
NYC SFRD SLSF UTLX 5
ART BO CG CN CRIP LN NRC UCR 4
ERIE IC NWX SCCX SOU 3
GWEX MP NKP PM TP URT WAB 2
Strays:
ACL AOX BAR CIZ CO CP CS GATX GTW LV MAHX MDT
NW OSL PLE RDG SCMX SSW STLBM


cars ending 08, total cars: 241
ATSF 30
PFE 19
DRGW 15
SP 15
GN WP 12 (no log cars)
CBQ 10
CNW MILW 9
PRR 8
NP UP 7
SFRD 6
SOU UCR WFE 5
FGE GATX IC NW SCCX 4
MDT NYC 3
ART CDLX CO ERIE KCS MP URT 2
Strays:
ACL BA BO BS CG CGW CNJ CRIP FOB GTW ITC LA LN LV
NADX NKP PLE PM RDG SCMX SRLX SSW STLBM TNO URTX UTLX WAB

Any one want to help take on classifying some of the larger groups,
like PFE, DRGW, SP, WP, CBQ, CNW, Milw, PRR, UP, ...
please contact me off list.

Allen Rueter

Denny...

Back in the old days when Floquil was more "lacquer-based", I airbrushed it
on styrene all of the time (but using light initial coats). It wasn't until
I tried it on injected styrene did I realize what Floquil Barrier was for!
The old rule was that you couldn't put a lacquer-based paint over enamel but
the reverse was okay (my understanding is that the current Floquil is more
like an enamel than a lacquer). If you are talking about the "new" Floquil
Primer, you might want to airbrush some Floquil Primer on some styrene, let
it dry, and then try the Scalecoat just to be safe.


Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Denny
I don't recall if I've used this combo on styrene but I have on brass with no paint problems. I wouldn't think the top coat would craze the styrene as long as the prime coat was cured.
Jeff Coleman

Doc,
 
        Does the phrase " works like H2SO4" influence your thinking?
 
Fred Freitas

Friends, being thrifty, I want to use an existing cache of Scalecoat I over some styrene cars that have been been primed with Floquil gray. Have others done this without the paint crazing the paint or styrene?

I know that I should just purchase Scalecoat II and be done with it- but I would rather not.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

I have four of the Branchline kits and thought they would be a quick build until a photo gave it away. I appreciate your help.

Mark Morgan

Denny,
I haven't used this application, BUT............
Floquil being a "lacquer"/solvent based paint should not be affected
by application of an enamel paint. The recerse is where in the problem lies.
Good luck,
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division

Greg Martin wrote:

How does Scotty Mason and this message firgure into Steam Era Freight Cars?

Good point, Greg. There have been "Mason shows" on freight cars, but this one clearly is NOT. Perhaps our esteemed moderator will have a comment?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

How does Scotty Mason and this message firgure into Steam Era Freight Cars?

Greg Martin

Just a reminder, Stan does make a roof for the P2K car that makes this bash work. He will be in Cocoa Beach. Elden can you make it down?

Greg

List,

The editors working on the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society freightcar book have asked me to track down some additional information on "Moore" refrigerator cars. So far I've found nothing beyond what Ken Soroos stated in his message to me:

"I've finally gotten back to work on the freight car book. You did so
well with the Bohn Patent reefer hatch ventilator information that I
hope you can help out with another reefer question - regarding Soo
entries in 1920s era ORERs indicating "Moore." There is a rough photo
of a 1921 H&B reefer (from Gjevre--attached) that shows a box hung
below the right car side just left of the door. I noticed the Moore
entries and tried to see if they were related. Charles A. Moore, an
inventor from St. Paul, filed for patents on refrigerator car
ventilating/air circulating systems in the 19-teens and 20s. Most of
the earlier ones seemed to involve ice hatches that were centrally
located on the roof, but some diagrams show a similar box under the
car. It seems to be part of the cold air circulating system, not a
heater of some kind. One of the patents incorporated a heater, but it
was inside the car (accessible from either inside or a door on the
outside). Anyway, have you seen anything about Moore Patent
applications in Car Builders' Cycs or do you have any other information?"

These cars are exceedingly difficult to find photos of, so far we've found only three, one only showing part of the car. They were built by Haskell & Barker in 1921; stripped to the frames and rebuilt as flat cars in 1937. All three photos show that the cars had Bohn Patent ventilators (a modified hatch cover that should be familiar to fans of the Santa Fe) and a stencil drawing for these cars from the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum confirms these were on the cars as built. Only one photo shows an additional box slung under the car, although it may only have been on one side. It does look similar to the charcoal heaters the Canadian Pacific installed on some reefers built around WWII, but most of the Moore patents concern themselves with ventilators rather than heaters. As Ken states, the ORER entries show all the cars as "Moore", without further explaination. The is no reference to the Bohn ventilators in the ORER listing.

Is anyone familiar with the Moore appliance, what it was, what it did? Was it common enough that simply listing a car as "Moore" had some significant meaning? Anyone have a citation to an article in the trade press of the day?

Thanks,

Dennis

Mark Morgan wrote:

Another Duryea underframe class and am wondering if anyone might have

suggestions for trucks, and is this an enclosed underframe.

Car numbers 282000-283149

I will have to check my stuff at home, but I believe they were ASF "Ride
Control".

If by "enclosed" you mean the cross-bearers were solid pieces of metal,
press steel shapes, then the answer is yes. If you mean the center sills
have a cover plate, then I will have to check the drawings. By the early
1950s when these cars were built, the Duryea patents were modified so
that the underframes allowed the use of standard AAR center-sills.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Thanks. Ed also replied off list that Scalecoat #11 is a good match.

Jerry Glow