Date   

Re: box car colors

Tim O'Connor
 

I avoid spraying too much weathering on the lettering if
I can, and then I go back over the results with a fiberglass
brush (Micromark) and gently remove the color that got on
the lettering. This works especially well with SP emblems
because they are nice and round :-)

Tim O'Connor

At 12/6/2009 12:25 PM Sunday, you wrote:
Thank you, Tim. I can believe what you say without doing the Photoshop experiment, because in my other avocation, easel painting, the Impressionists and Josef Albers are some of my heroes. However, at the scale and under the viewing conditions of models, I think I'm going to have to take some step to model the effect -- perhaps mask the heralds before applying the last few coats of weathering spray, or lightly dissolve/lift the weathering over them. Sounds challenging. As Tony Thompson says in a following post, the comparable effect with lettering is hard to model. I can believe it.

Barry Roth


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Very interesting data.

While the box car population does not "match" what the Gilbert/Nelson theory
projects...if I understand it correctly [ hedge...always hedge ]...it does
fit in the ball park for UP, PRR, and NYC.

PRR: 44; 59; 103 Projected at 9.2% = 101
UP: 32; 65; 97 Projected at twice 3.75% = 83
NYC: 34; 43; 77 Projected at 9.6%= 106
SP: 40; 32; 72 Projected at 4.1%= 45
MILW: 13; 42; 55 Projected at 4.05%= 45
ATSF: 21; 32; 53 Projected at 5.2% = 57
CNW: 22; 18; 40 Projected at 3.1% = 34

Obviously PRR is amazingly close. UP a bit less than projected, NYC much less, only 72% of the projected number, and SP again higher...by 60%. Every examination of box car populations of the UP trunk line though Wyoming shows SP box cars to far exceed the SP % of the national population.

Mike Brock


Re: box car colors

Tim O'Connor
 

Ahem... don't forget the effects of

(1) film (2) light (3) scan (4) monitor (5) eyeballs.

You may THINK you're looking at the actual colors of the cars... :-)

Tim

Well . . . OK if you say so. All the taconite I've seen has been rusty red. But in any event, the
blueness is on the inside of the car at the top of the side sheets, uniform (more or less) along the
length of the car, and the orangey-white-gray staining is below that.

SGL


Re: box car colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Schuyler Larrabee"
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is the foreground car on which you
can
read "PENNSYLVANIA." The blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and
different
from what one would expect without having actually LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL
Some ores of iron are blue in color. Taconite certainly is, and some natural ores were, too.

Dennis

Well . . . OK if you say so. All the taconite I've seen has been rusty red. But in any event, the
blueness is on the inside of the car at the top of the side sheets, uniform (more or less) along the
length of the car, and the orangey-white-gray staining is below that.

SGL





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Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Wendye Ware
 

Many thanks to Tony Thompson, Tom Madden, and Al Campbell for clarifying that "C" type cars are "Coal" cars - meaning gons and hoppers. I spot checked the car numbers provided in the four different train books I have transcribed so far against the designation in the appropriate ORERs, and in all cases the cars were either gons or hoppers.

Tony, the contents "RM" and "MR" appeared in the same train, first a long string of 30 RMs interspersed with a few other cars, and then four MRs. There were 45 cars in the train. Nevertheless, I think you are probably correct and Conductor Traud meant to write "MR".

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: box car colors

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "devansprr" <devans1@...> wrote:

I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era paints? Could explain all of the cars that look more like charred grey than FCC. Especially the "two" color hopper in the photo - perhaps someone was too aggressive trying to thaw one end?
It depends on the heat source used. When I was a little kid, I remember seeing a fire on the RR tracks across the street from the store my dad and I were in. Dad said they were thawing coal cars. The coal yard had a bucket of fuel oil under each slope sheet, burning like a smudge pot, the flames and smoke rolling up the sides of the car.

There must be more efficient was to thaw a car, but this was field expediency.

Dennis


Re: box car colors

Barry Roth
 

Thank you, Tim. I can believe what you say without doing the Photoshop experiment, because in my other avocation, easel painting, the Impressionists and Josef Albers are some of my heroes. However, at the scale and under the viewing conditions of models, I think I'm going to have to take some step to model the effect -- perhaps mask the heralds before applying the last few coats of weathering spray, or lightly dissolve/lift the weathering over them. Sounds challenging. As Tony Thompson says in a following post, the comparable effect with lettering is hard to model. I can believe it.

Barry Roth

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Barry

I have a JPG color sampling of ACF box car reds from Ed Hawkins,
each color on a vertical strip, all the same size. If I change
the "background" color of the strips from white to black, there
is an immediate strong shift in perception that the colors are
now darker and more similar to each other than when the background
was white. The PFE emblems are white lettering on dark backgrounds.
The dirt layer is simply dark over an orange background. Take
the photo into Photoshop and clip the heralds, and play with
different background colors. I think you will perceive them very
differently depending on the background colors and brightness.

Tim O'Connor


At 12/5/2009 01:48 PM Saturday, you wrote:
On those dirty ol' reefers the UP and SP heralds/logos stand out is though they do not have the same coat of smuts as the rest of the sides. Except for the repack fields, the cars do not otherwise seem to have been sponged off, so does this result from the paint on the heralds being smoother and less retentive of road dirt?

Barry Roth


Re: box car colors

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is the foreground car on which you can
read "PENNSYLVANIA." The blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and different
from what one would expect without having actually LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL
Some ores of iron are blue in color. Taconite certainly is, and some natural ores were, too.

Dennis


Re: box car colors

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is the foreground car on which you can
read "PENNSYLVANIA." The blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and different
from what one would expect without having actually LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL
Some ores of iron are blue in color. Taconite certainly is, and some natural ores were, too.

Dennis


Re: box car colors

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Looking at that photo, I would be more tempted to think that the charring of the end of that particular car was the result of that bane of the industry at the time... a hotbox. If the car needed thawing (and often they would in the winter... iron ore was relatively wet when it came out of the ground) the scorch marks (if any) would be more towards the center of the car.

I would also like the other PRR fanatics here to observe the color of the interior of the car in the immediate foreground... that's (at least to my eye) close to what color FCC really was. However, I have to offer a caveat... these transparencies were originally shot on Kodachrome and Kodachrome tends to be weak on reds, so the color may well be more intense. But to my eye, it looks correct, with just enough orange in it to be right. All of the cars in this photo looked like that when freshly painted, but time, temperature, climate and environment have wreaked havoc on the base color.

Bill Daniels

Tucson, AZ

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, devansprr <devans1@erols.com> wrote:

From: devansprr <devans1@erols.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: box car colors
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 8:32 AM







 













--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, "railwayman" <stevelucas3@ ...> wrote:

This is a personal favourite. Standard Railroad of the World modellers on this list can opine on standard PRR freight car red, but here's at least nine PRR hoppers, each of a slightly different hue--
http://www.shorpy. com/node/ 2799?size= _original
One has a lot of leeway in matching STMFC colours.

Steve Lucas.
Group,



The hopper behind the one being loaded has "two" colors on one car, and it triggered a recollection of a very recent conversation with modern rail car equipment manufacturers - the heating of hoppers to thaw the load. Even today, this is an environmental challenge for any electrical equipment that may be installed on a rail car (ECP braking).



I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era paints? Could explain all of the cars that look more like charred grey than FCC. Especially the "two" color hopper in the photo - perhaps someone was too aggressive trying to thaw one end?



This would likely be a phenomena unique to hoppers?



Dave Evans


Re: box car colors

Schuyler Larrabee
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "railwayman" <stevelucas3@...>
wrote:

This is a personal favourite. Standard Railroad of the World modelers on this list can opine on
standard PRR freight
car red, but here's at least nine PRR hoppers, each of a slightly different hue--

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original <http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original>;
One has a lot of leeway in matching STMFC colours.

Steve Lucas.
Group,

The hopper behind the one being loaded has "two" colors on one car, and it triggered a
recollection of a very recent
conversation with modern rail car equipment manufacturers - the heating of hoppers to thaw the
load. Even today, this is
an environmental challenge for any electrical equipment that may be installed on a rail car (ECP
braking).

I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era paints? Could explain all of
the cars that look
more like charred grey than FCC. Especially the "two" color hopper in the photo - perhaps someone
was too aggressive
trying to thaw one end?

This would likely be a phenomena unique to hoppers?

Dave Evans
Interesting observations, Dale. The one I find interesting is the foreground car on which you can
read "PENNSYLVANIA." The blueness and staining of the interior are very interesting and different
from what one would expect without having actually LOOKED at the prototype.

SGL





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Re: box car colors

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "railwayman" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

This is a personal favourite. Standard Railroad of the World modellers on this list can opine on standard PRR freight car red, but here's at least nine PRR hoppers, each of a slightly different hue--

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original
One has a lot of leeway in matching STMFC colours.

Steve Lucas.
Group,

The hopper behind the one being loaded has "two" colors on one car, and it triggered a recollection of a very recent conversation with modern rail car equipment manufacturers - the heating of hoppers to thaw the load. Even today, this is an environmental challenge for any electrical equipment that may be installed on a rail car (ECP braking).

I wonder what an over-aggressive thawing attempt would do to WWII era paints? Could explain all of the cars that look more like charred grey than FCC. Especially the "two" color hopper in the photo - perhaps someone was too aggressive trying to thaw one end?

This would likely be a phenomena unique to hoppers?

Dave Evans


Re: Erie Horizontal rib hopper

bob_karig <karig@...>
 

Builder's photos for the horizontally braced hopper cars are available from Keith Retterer:

New York, Susquehanna & Western 10000, dated 3/1912 is number 561
Erie 31000, dated 2/1914 is photo number 633
Erie 32800, dated 5/1916 is photo number P-65

Erie 32800 is also shown in the 1919 Car Builders Dictionary

Bob Karig


Re: Erie Horizontal rib hopper

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Bob, another reason I need your book. It's on my Christmas list.

I was about halfway through the research I needed to do.

SGL

The Z-section horizontal ribbed hopper cars were built by Standard Steel. The pressed-steel,
hat-shaped horizontal ribbed
hopper cars were built by the Pressed Steel Car Company.

The Susquehanna purchased 1,125 of these cars beginning in 1912 from the Standard Steel Car
Company. The Erie
purchased a number of these cars beginning in 1914 from the Standard Steel Car Company beginning
with car number
31000. The Erie then bought another series of these cars from the Pressed Steel Car Company
beginning in May 1916,
beginning with car number 32800.

In 1925, there were 2,483 of these cars in service on the Erie. I think it's safe to say that car
numbers 31000 through
32799 had the Z-section horizontal ribs, and 32800 through 33499 had the pressed-steel, hat-shaped
ribs.

If you look on pages 270 and 271 of my book, you'll see builder's photos and in-service photos of
these cars.

Bob Karig




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Re: Erie Horizonal rib hopper

aslt28 <karig@...>
 

The Z-section horizontal ribbed hopper cars were built by Standard Steel. The pressed-steel, hat-shaped horizontal ribbed hopper cars were built by the Pressed Steel Car Company.

The Susquehanna purchased 1,125 of these cars beginning in 1912 from the Standard Steel Car Company. The Erie purchased a number of these cars beginning in 1914 from the Standard Steel Car Company beginning with car number 31000. The Erie then bought another series of these cars from the Pressed Steel Car Company beginning in May 1916, beginning with car number 32800.

In 1925, there were 2,483 of these cars in service on the Erie. I think it's safe to say that car numbers 31000 through 32799 had the Z-section horizontal ribs, and 32800 through 33499 had the pressed-steel, hat-shaped ribs.

If you look on pages 270 and 271 of my book, you'll see builder's photos and in-service photos of these cars.

Bob Karig


Re: Lead - was Scalecoat 1 etc

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Many military vehicles use an olive green-type color. Adding white to lighten usually doesn't work well, as you found. The solution that has developed over the years is to use a WW II German color called dunkelgelb or dark yellow (which is really a light tan) instead of white.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee

What I was looking for when I wanted a paint alternative to Accupaint (and
really<< need now!) was the light gray-green used in the horizontal band
on ERIE passenger equipment. . . . I spent a couple of months working with relevant colors of Scalecoat 1, attempting to develop a repeatable match to a valid sample I have somewhere, and it came very close but was slightly too dark. It was measured in drops, a standard unit of measure. When I tried to add white, Scalecoat's
white contains quite a bit of blue, which whacked everything out of shape. VERY frustrating.


Re: box car colors

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Two philosophical questions then:

1. If two cars were built the same day at the same place and painted from the same drum
of paint, coupled together and run together hauling the same cargos for ten years, would
you expect the colors of the two be virtually the same or markedly different after ten
years?
Kurt, please identify a single example.

2. If two cars were built the same day by two different shops for two different railroads
and painted in markedly different colors, coupled together a week later and run together
hauling the same cargos for ten years, would you expect the colors of the two be virtually
the same or markedly different after ten years?
Can you identify a single example?

I know of none and doubt there ever was one. And how do you like this: I don't care if did ever happened or if it happened every day! In fact, that's why the second word in my post was "philosophical", not "based-on-real-life-example". The idea was for each of us to consider - consistent with our own philosophies of weathering - if these cases DID happen, what would we *expect* the answers to be? Whether you post or (hopefully) not, relate that back to your own ideas about whether it's important to match colors to a standard.

KL


Re: Lead - was Scalecoat 1 etc

major_denis_bloodnok <smokeandsteam@...>
 

It was measured in drops, a standard unit of measure. When I tried to add white, Scalecoat's
white contains quite a bit of blue, which whacked everything out of shape. VERY frustrating.
A good place to start with older grey-greens is to assume that it is likley to comprise a basic mix of black, yellow and white which may be adjusted with a few more expensive pigments. The original paint was probably lead based, and lead white would have been a key ingredient.

If the Scalecoat white has a slight blue cast - not unusual as this is a common trick to counter yellowing - increasing the amount of yellow in your mix may help compensate for this. If am am trying to removea blue cast I usually try to work with yellow ochre shades as the pure saturated yellows can shift the resulting colour too far towards green.

I am not sure I can offer much more for Scalecoat, but I do keep a few bottles of Ceramcoat and Liquitex acrylics for adjusting acrylic model paints.

HTH

Aidrian


Re: box car colors

al_brown03
 

I haven't tried to "chalk" stencilled lettering, but I do try to make chalk *marks* look like they've smeared a bit. For carmen's marks I use Sunshine decals, over which I put a little white powdered chalk, brushed downward on the car side. An over-coat of Dullcote mixes it all in.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Barry Roth wrote:
On those dirty ol' reefers the UP and SP heralds/logos stand out is
though they do not have the same coat of smuts as the rest of the
sides. Except for the repack fields, the cars do not otherwise seem
to have been sponged off, so does this result from the paint on the
heralds being smoother and less retentive of road dirt?
This is something you see on box cars too, with white lettering
looking way too bright compared to the car side. The usual explanation
is that the paint "chalked" and sloughed off the dirt and uppermost
film of paint all the time. Sometimes you can see whitish streaking
beneath the lettering which seems to bear this out. it's a hard effect
to model.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Conductors Train Book, Traud, Oct. to Dec., 1951

Al Campbell
 

Hello Larry: I've been going through some B&M conductor books that date to
1944 and also some that go back to 1925 and find that "C" cars are indeed a
mix of both hoppers and gons. I guess if you can put coal in them that's
the designation they got back then. A quick look at a 1955 UP conductors
book shows covered hoppers listed as "CH" and open hoppers as "H". Hope this
is helpful. Regards, Al Campbell

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