Date   

Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo

spsalso
 

A little housecleaning on my last post:

One of the SP series was 34', another was 36+'.  Both close-ish to 34'.  There might be other candidates.


Ed

Edward Sutorik



On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 02:34 PM, spsalso wrote:
Charlie,

I usually use the process you describe (if I can't get a car number, etc.), but I didn't like it for this because the picture gets pretty fuzzy when it's blown up that much, and it's kinda hard to get accuracy.

But.

I did it anyway.  And, yes, the truck wheelbase comes in around 5 1/2 feet.  Which is remindful of the dimension that Dennis came up with by a different method.

Well, well, says I.

Contemplating on all this, I thought:  "What if the inside length wasn't 40'-ish?"

So I went backwards from the truck wheelbase to get the IL.  Which comes up at about 34'.  In that case, I could note that Southern Pacific had a couple of gon series with that IL.  Nothing shows up for UP, that I can see.  But...........

In other words, if the truck wheelbase is "standard", which it appears to be when compared to the neighboring truck, then it would seem likely that the car was shorter than the typical 40'.

Interestinger and interestinger.


Ed

Edward Sutorik



Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo

spsalso
 

Charlie,

I usually use the process you describe (if I can't get a car number, etc.), but I didn't like it for this because the picture gets pretty fuzzy when it's blown up that much, and it's kinda hard to get accuracy.

But.

I did it anyway.  And, yes, the truck wheelbase comes in around 5 1/2 feet.  Which is remindful of the dimension that Dennis came up with by a different method.

Well, well, says I.

Contemplating on all this, I thought:  "What if the inside length wasn't 40'-ish?"

So I went backwards from the truck wheelbase to get the IL.  Which comes up at about 34'.  In that case, I could note that Southern Pacific had a couple of gon series with that IL.  Nothing shows up for UP, that I can see.  But...........

In other words, if the truck wheelbase is "standard", which it appears to be when compared to the neighboring truck, then it would seem likely that the car was shorter than the typical 40'.

Interestinger and interestinger.


Ed

Edward Sutorik




On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 01:03 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
Guys
How about using the 33” wheel as the scaling element.   If you measure off the center of the journal to the outside of the wheel that establishes your 16 1/2 “ and perspective errors should be way less than using undetermined half length of the car body.
There were many types of “Fox” pressed steel (hardly sheet metal) trucks.
Charlie Vlk

 


Re: Speaking of decals

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Craig, I believe a few of us have that tee shirt too.


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:29 PM Craig Wilson <agecompanyphotog@...> wrote:
Bob Schleicher (Model Ralroading/RailModel Journal) was very fond of a photo of the prototype DT&I car with a load of Ford tractors and used it often for his "Wish List" articles.  One day I got a Walthers flier that had a drawing of a WIKING tractor that looked an awful like those same tractors.  I went online to order them but found that they were "out of stock - backorder."  Normally I don't play that game but since I needed 10 for the load and this was my chance to save some money on them, I bit the bullet and submitted the order.  It took a few months to get them but they finally showed up.

These were undecorated gray models and easily disassembled so that I could paint them red/gray/black.  I mounted them on a 70-ton flatcar kitbashed from two Athearn models (the top car in the photo).  What I didn't know at the time, the Wiking models are actually Ferguson tractors, not Fords.  The only real difference is that the exhaust pipe on the Canadian-built Fergusons is mounted vertically, while on the Fords it runs horizontally along the frame.  Other than I knew that when I took the model to an RPM meet I'd hear "You know those are Fergusons, not Fords" the real problem was that those delicate exhaust pipes broke off every time I handled the car.  When Intermountain came out with their 70-ton flatcar I decided to redo the load.  I modified the tractors by moving the exhaust pipes along the frame thus solving both problems.

Even by getting a "sale price" on the Wiking tractors, it was a pretty expensive load (I used to refer to the original version as my "$90 load on a $10 flatcar") but I was only making one of them.

Craig Wilson




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: MDC heavy duty trucks

Richard Townsend
 

Todd, thanks so much! I had forgotten about those trucks, and they are perfect. Not roller bearing like the MDC, and since I don't want the roller bearings, that works out well.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Apr 15, 2020 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MDC heavy duty trucks

Hi  Richard,

I looked on eBay for Roundhouse SP ore cars, as that's where I thought the MDC trucks were used, but the photos in the auctions I found were not conclusive.

Have you seen Cory Bonsall's trucks used under the Utah Coal Route 70t gons?  Here's a link to his auction for them with pretty good photos:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Scale-3D-Printed-Truckframes-70-Ton-Carbon-County-Railway-CBC-2-Pair/232519243454?hash=item36233a16be:g:GwIAAOSweIlZZrgX

Todd Sullivan


Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo

Dave Parker
 

I took a quick stab using Charlie's suggestion and got 5-8.  Pretty close to 5-6 given the fuzziness of the photo.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Speaking of decals

Bob Chapman
 

Re K4 decals --

I recently ordered four boxcar sets, and was amazed to see them in my mailbox in three days. They catalog a huge variety of roadnames, including some real oddballs most of us would not have on our shopping list. Very tempting to come up with projects that might use a few of them.

Based on experience so far, I'd rate them as very good. Things seem to be the right size and font. Not up to thoroughness standard of Speedwitch's (but how many are?!). The film is reasonably thin. 

When it comes time to order decals for the next round of projects, they will be high on my consider list. 

Bob Chapman


Re: Speaking of decals

Jim Ogden
 

I hate to say this but Ford sold an aftermarket kit to modify the exhaust on 8N tractors to where it resembled the as built Ferguson. The stock exhaust interfered with some implements.

Jim Ogden

Owner of two 8N Fords


Re: Speaking of decals

Jim King
 

I think “not opaque enough” is a common complaint about ALPS printed decals if you want to model a new(-ish) paint.  For faded and/or weathered lettering, I’ve heard (and experienced) that ALPS works OK.  Buyer beware, as usual.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


Re: Striker Castings

George Eichelberger
 

Striker casting drawings…and many more!

For obvious reasons, we have cancelled two of the third weekend archives work sessions at the SRHA archives building at TVRM so far. We typically have 10-12 people come either/both Friday and Saturday of the sessions. (Dates are on the SRHA web site at www.srha.net.) The archives contain the linen originals of virtually every Southern Railway and Central of Georgia freight car (STMFC) and Southern passenger cars, the Executive Dept (SR Presidents’) files from before the creation of the Southern and all of the files from Hayne Shop in Spartanburg, SC in addition to several large photo collections of all of the railroads in the Southeast and beyond.

Anyone is welcome to attend and if they have plans to visit TVRM at other times, one of us may be able to be there to meet you. Contact me or archives@....

The attached photo is the just Presidents’ file row in the archives.

Ike


Re: Density of coal - Should be BULK Density

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Al Kresse

On April 15, 2020 at 4:37 PM David Soderblom <drs@...> wrote:

A lot of coal was shipped fairly finely divided, in small pieces, large chunks with air gaps less so.  A reference book I have quotes the density of coal as 75 to 94 lbs/ft^3, so you could use the lower number.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA






 


Re: Density of coal - Should be BULK Density

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Al Kresse

On April 15, 2020 at 4:37 PM David Soderblom <drs@...> wrote:

A lot of coal was shipped fairly finely divided, in small pieces, large chunks with air gaps less so.  A reference book I have quotes the density of coal as 75 to 94 lbs/ft^3, so you could use the lower number.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA






 


Re: MDC heavy duty trucks

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi  Richard,

I looked on eBay for Roundhouse SP ore cars, as that's where I thought the MDC trucks were used, but the photos in the auctions I found were not conclusive.

Have you seen Cory Bonsall's trucks used under the Utah Coal Route 70t gons?  Here's a link to his auction for them with pretty good photos:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Scale-3D-Printed-Truckframes-70-Ton-Carbon-County-Railway-CBC-2-Pair/232519243454?hash=item36233a16be:g:GwIAAOSweIlZZrgX

Todd Sullivan


Re: Density of coal

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Yes, you want bulk density . . . . different for lump, stoker or pea sized coal. Then you need the heaping rules for different railroads.  N&WVGN used 15" and C&O 10" max.

Al Kresse

On April 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Andy Cich <ajc5150@...> wrote:
of dif

 to 59 lb/cu ft is roughly the range for anthracite. For bituminous, the range is about 46 – 54 lb/cu ft.

 

The ARA used 52 lb/ cu ft when designing standard cars.

 

Andy Cich

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 2:17 PM
To: STMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Density of coal

 

I’m working on a problem involving the density of coal and need some help.  Does anyone have a wheel report containing cars loaded with coal that have the weight recorded?  What is the car and weight listed?  The wheel reports I have do not include car weight.

 

I’m asking because well documented coal densities you can find on the web are all densities based on ground coal (think ground coffee) which is done specifically because rail shipped coal, being larger, has substantial air gaps that lessen the overall density of the load.

 

IOW the published numbers are going to be higher than the same cubic volume found in any hopper.  I’m looking for the later number.

 

T.I.A.

 

Dave Nelson

 



 


Re: Density of coal

Andy Laurent
 

Dave,

Give the attached Green Bay & Western conductor's train book from 1945 a try. It is from my collection.  Lots of coal in there, much of it going westbound from Green Bay (station 0) to the paper mills in Wisconsin Rapids (station 96). Some of it in boxcars. Most of the trains in there are mainline GB&W freights.

Andy Laurent
Madison, WI


Re: Density of coal

David Soderblom
 

A lot of coal was shipped fairly finely divided, in small pieces, large chunks with air gaps less so.  A reference book I have quotes the density of coal as 75 to 94 lbs/ft^3, so you could use the lower number.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA






Re: Speaking of decals

Rick Jesionowski
 

I used a set of the K4 decals, I was dissatisfied with the white decals as they were not as opaque as Microscale or others, the black decals were okay.

Rick Jesionowski


Re: Speaking of decals

Craig Wilson
 

Bob Schleicher (Model Ralroading/RailModel Journal) was very fond of a photo of the prototype DT&I car with a load of Ford tractors and used it often for his "Wish List" articles.  One day I got a Walthers flier that had a drawing of a WIKING tractor that looked an awful like those same tractors.  I went online to order them but found that they were "out of stock - backorder."  Normally I don't play that game but since I needed 10 for the load and this was my chance to save some money on them, I bit the bullet and submitted the order.  It took a few months to get them but they finally showed up.

These were undecorated gray models and easily disassembled so that I could paint them red/gray/black.  I mounted them on a 70-ton flatcar kitbashed from two Athearn models (the top car in the photo).  What I didn't know at the time, the Wiking models are actually Ferguson tractors, not Fords.  The only real difference is that the exhaust pipe on the Canadian-built Fergusons is mounted vertically, while on the Fords it runs horizontally along the frame.  Other than I knew that when I took the model to an RPM meet I'd hear "You know those are Fergusons, not Fords" the real problem was that those delicate exhaust pipes broke off every time I handled the car.  When Intermountain came out with their 70-ton flatcar I decided to redo the load.  I modified the tractors by moving the exhaust pipes along the frame thus solving both problems.

Even by getting a "sale price" on the Wiking tractors, it was a pretty expensive load (I used to refer to the original version as my "$90 load on a $10 flatcar") but I was only making one of them.

Craig Wilson



Re: Density of coal

Andy Cich
 

In Karig’s Coal Cars book, there is a table of coal bulk densities by region on Page 2. 54 to 59 lb/cu ft is roughly the range for anthracite. For bituminous, the range is about 46 – 54 lb/cu ft.

 

The ARA used 52 lb/ cu ft when designing standard cars.

 

Andy Cich

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 2:17 PM
To: STMFC <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Density of coal

 

I’m working on a problem involving the density of coal and need some help.  Does anyone have a wheel report containing cars loaded with coal that have the weight recorded?  What is the car and weight listed?  The wheel reports I have do not include car weight.

 

I’m asking because well documented coal densities you can find on the web are all densities based on ground coal (think ground coffee) which is done specifically because rail shipped coal, being larger, has substantial air gaps that lessen the overall density of the load.

 

IOW the published numbers are going to be higher than the same cubic volume found in any hopper.  I’m looking for the later number.

 

T.I.A.

 

Dave Nelson


Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo

Charlie Vlk
 

Guys
How about using the 33” wheel as the scaling element.   If you measure off the center of the journal to the outside of the wheel that establishes your 16 1/2 “ and perspective errors should be way less than using undetermined half length of the car body.
There were many types of “Fox” pressed steel (hardly sheet metal) trucks.
Charlie Vlk


On Apr 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 03:33 PM, spsalso wrote:
I agree that the wheelbase length I got is very strange.  If someone would care to examine the (American Smelting) photo and tell me where I went wrong, I'd surely like to hear.  I would prefer to be wrong, because it's the simplest solution.

It was a simple case of measuring the length of a known dimension (half of the IL) and measuring the wheelbase length in the photo, and doing a ratio.
I went about it a different way... I downloaded the high res TIF, blew the area up, and reasoning that at that distance the adjacent hopper car is essentially the same distance from the camera, simply used a caliper to compare the wheelbase to the T section Bettendorf trucks on the hopper. They are essentially the same. Possible explanation for your results: 1) what you thought was the center wasn't, or 2) the gon is 40 feet long rather than 46.

Dennis Storzek


Re: GM&O and A&WP colors

George Courtney
 

I had my doubts and thanks for confirming them.

George Courtney

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