Date   

Bieber 1947 4th quarter *03 cars

Allen Rueter
 

Cars through Bieber 1947 4th Quarter, numbers ending 03 - 258 cars

GN 45
PFE 22
ATSF 20
PRR 13
SP 11
UP 10
NYC 10
DRGW 9
WP 8
CBQ 8
WFE 6
NP 5
LN 5
SFRD, Milw MDT GWEX BO 4
Wab UCR TP RDG CO CNW 3
AOX CG DRS IC NKP NRC PM SCCX SLSF SOU URT 2
strays:
ART AWP BRE CIL CN CRR DLW DTI ERIE GMO GTW IGN MKT MP
NCSTL NW PMCKY SAL SOO SSW UTLX

Allen Rueter


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52
in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think
that later this was determined to
be not legal.
Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was
established in 1944 as a separate operating branch of the Central RR
of New Jersey, and remained so until ca. 1954, when the courts ruled
that it was an illicit tax dodge. After 1954, the cars with CRP
reporting marks were gradually re-integrated into the CNJ roster,
though there cars running around lettered CRP through the 1950s and
into the 1960s.

Richard Hendrickson
Yes, Richard, wrong on the date, but right on the reason, concept, and methodology (re-initializing
the equipment). It all happened a few years earlier than I had in mind. Thanks for setting the
dates.

SGL





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Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52
in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think
that later this was determined to
be not legal.
Well, Schuyler, in fact you ARE wrong, at least partly. CRP was
established in 1944 as a separate operating branch of the Central RR
of New Jersey, and remained so until ca. 1954, when the courts ruled
that it was an illicit tax dodge. After 1954, the cars with CRP
reporting marks were gradually re-integrated into the CNJ roster,
though there cars running around lettered CRP through the 1950s and
into the 1960s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, your 84/16 is roughly a 5:1 ratio. There must be some
amount of double counting since GN/SP interchanged some amount
of traffic at Klamath Falls, although it's probably not a lot.
The region had a significant amount of online traffic (timber
and lumber mostly) so even if the WP/GN interchanged 275 cars
daily at Bieber, a fair amount of that would not be overhead
traffic but would originate either on the WP or OT (GN) or be
interchange for the SP at K-Falls. At the same time, not all
of SP's Cascade traffic went through Redding, but was diverted
via the Modoc line between K-Falls and Nevada.

So the bottom line, even if SP handled 10x the traffic over its
various routes compared to the GN+WP operations, it's not simply
a matter of counting cars at one location.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 06:33 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP
through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most
traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue
in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou
Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line)
was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over
the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

MOFWCABOOSE@...
 

Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania: August 1946 to December 1952, according to Edson.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:49 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars




I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.

SGL

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Database version: 6.13750
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Molded-on Grab Irons (was: Heap Shields)

StephenK
 

Assuming the ends of the cutters are flat, this is the item...


SKay

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "StephenK" <thekays100@> wrote:

Actually there used to be a tool that is ideal for removing molded-on grabs...

Unfortunately, Klein doesn't make them any more...
Were they like the "Premium End Nippers" at the bottom of this page?

http://www.ppe.com/10cat/0152.pdf

I THINK PPE will take credit cards, but they may have a minimum order. If so, check their web site for other shaped nippers (gate cutters) all of which are flush cutting, and also check out their selection of needle files and rifflers.

Dennis


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Allen Rueter
 

Doesn't seem so high to me when you look at it as 135+ north and 135+ south, come close to possibly match
the time-tables.

Also the GN passed traffic to the SP at K Falls, that came out of Spokane & Montana.

--
Allen Rueter StLouis MO


________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 6:17:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)


Al Daumann wrote:
Thanks for the info. So if I'm reading you right and assuming
Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day
through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times
that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?
That high an amount seems impossible, but I'm quoting a traffic
study from 1951. Even the 275/day at Bieber sounds high to me. I'd
believe 1500 or so cars daily at Redding, counting both directions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Molded-on Grab Irons and grab iron bending device

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Folks,



The Mission Model bending jig looks really nice but $90 puts it out of may
range for a specialty tool.



Sometime back one of the magazines ran an article where a piece of sheet
plastic with manufactured scribed slots (siding?) was cut in a triangular
shape with the slots running parallel to the base of the triangle. Then,
you pick the slot that matches the width that you need and lay a piece of
wire in it and simply bend it over the edges of the plastic. Bingo, a grab
iron. The taller the triangle combined with a narrow base gives you a LOT
of slots which vary in length only slightly as you go from one slot to the
next.



I built one of these for a zero cost using scraps from the plastic box and
it works great.



Hopefully my description makes sense.



Allen Cain


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an
effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax
authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that
later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.
1944 to 1952, according to Wikipedia. (with the usual Wikipedia caveat).

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC


For Sale: HO scale rolling stock

Rob Sarberenyi <espeef5@...>
 

I have some steam era along with more modern era rolling stock currently
listed on eBay
http://stores.ebay.com/Espee-F-5

As always, thanks for looking!


Rob Sarberenyi


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that CRP was set up around '52 in an effort to put some assets
of the CNJ out of the reach (well, that was the idea) of NJ tax authorities. A lot of rolling stock
was re-initialed with CRP with few if any other changes. I think that later this was determined to
be not legal.

Somebody on this list KNOWS the answer, I'm sure.

SGL





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
Database version: 6.13750
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Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

Tim O'Connor
 

The tax dodge was incorporated into the plot of a Paul Newman
movie, The Young Philadelphians, where he saves a client big bucks
by shuffling some business from NJ to PA taxes.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 04:53 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Frank Valoczy wrote:
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.
Probably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville.

Tom Madden


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Daumann wrote:
Thanks for the info. So if I'm reading you right and assuming Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?
That high an amount seems impossible, but I'm quoting a traffic study from 1951. Even the 275/day at Bieber sounds high to me. I'd believe 1500 or so cars daily at Redding, counting both directions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


LONG MICRO DRILLS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

DOES ANYONE HAVE AN ALTERNATE SOURCE OTHER THAN MODEL EXPO FOR THE
SMALL DRILLS USED FOR FRILLING UNDERFRAMES ? THEIR PHONE SEEMS TO
BE DISCONNECTED AND THERE IS NOT ANY RESPONCE FROM THEIR E-MAIL
THANKS IN ADVANCE:

BILL PARDIE


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

acacd_ssp
 

Tony,
  Thanks for the info.  So if I'm reading you right and assuming Tim's data (about 25000 cars per 3 months or about 275 cars / day through Bieber), then the total SP traffic would be about 10 times that going through Bieber, or about 2750 cars per day at, say Redding?

Al Daumann




________________________________
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 3:33:01 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

 
Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP
through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most
traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue
in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou
Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line)
was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over
the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Daumann wrote:
Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP through Redding would be?
Redding has the complication that although SP moved most traffic on the Cascade Line, diverging at Black Butte, it did continue in 1947 to move a fair proportion (maybe a fourth) via the Siskiyou Line. But I do know that the traffic into Klamath Falls (Cascade Line) was 84% SP, 16% GN. Thus the likely proportion of GN-WP traffic over the Cascades vs. SP (both routes) was below 10%.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


More on 8 Hatch Reefers.

Brian Carlson
 

Picked up a flyer at a local train show today that True Line Trains is doing
8-Hatch reefers, due in 2010. They are mentioned in the TLT website new but
just artwork renderings. The 8 hatch reefers were discussed a few weeks ago
but I didn't see these mentioned. I plan to get one, to run occasionally
just need to figure out what might be more likely in western Pa, CP, CN, or
GTW.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars (How About The Trains?)

acacd_ssp
 

Tim,
  Very interesting data to me, since I'm modeling a freelanced railroad that interchanges with both the GN and WP at Bieber in the late 1940s.  If your extrapolation is correct, the 24,700 cars in 3 months, would average around 275 cars / per day.

  Recall in an earlier reply, I noted that a 1947 WP timetable had 4 regular / scheduled trains each day and a 1950 GN timetable had 2 each day.  For the WP, the 275 cars would average a little less than 70 cars per train.  This of course includes a big assumption that there were no extras, probably not a good assumption.

  Would it be fair to assume that there would be very little classification / sorting going on a Bieber, meaning that the vast majority of the cars that the WP delivered continuing North on GN and vice versa?  I would assume some cars interchanged with McCloud at Hambone/Lookout.

 Finally, any idea what a comparable number of cars going on the SP through Redding would be?

 Comments, corrections and additional info much appreciated.

Al Daumann




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 12:59:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

 

Dave Nelson, I hope you're paying attention! :-) The list below
is 247 cars, just 1/100 of the numbers (00-99). If the distribution
of numbers is uniform (I know, fat chance) that would be 247*100
or 24,700 cars through Bieber in 3 months -- My original guess
was 20,000 to 30,000 cars. Your estimate was 4,000 cars, IIRC.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 01:46 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Cars through Bieber 1947 4th quarter ending 02
GN - 35
ATSF - 27
PFE - 23
DRGW - 21
WP - 13
SP - 12
UP - 10
PRR - 10
Milw - 10
NYC - 7
NP - 6
IC - 6
CRIP - 6
WFE - 5
MDT - 5
ART - 5
FGE - 5
Wab - 3
UCR - 3
Sou - 3
NW - 3
strays Soo,SLSF,SCCX, SAL,LN,GMO, CSVX,CBQ, BRE,BO,
WLE, UTLX, SFRD, RDY, RDG, PE, NRC, MP,MOP,LV,LA, ITC,CRP CNJ,CN, CMO, CG, CA, BLE, ACL

not sure about a few of these like CRP 1902, RDY 1902

Allen Rueter



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: tools (was Re: Molded-on Grab Irons)

Jim Hayes
 

Tim, I've seen (on paper) and ignored the seam scraper in the past. Looking
at it again after your reccomendation made me look again. I think I have a
use for it right now on my bench.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>wrote:



One of my favorite tools is this "seam scraper" from MicroMark.
Actually, I use it as a REAMER. It is very sharp and pointed, and
it can ream out very small holes and cuts through Delrin etc
beautifully. It's probably good for seam scraping too. :-)

http://www.micromark.com/SEAM-SCRAPER,7547.html

Tim O'Connor

At 11/21/2009 03:25 PM Saturday, you wrote:
The flush end-nippers that Klein once made, and that PPE still
supplies are the handiest off all tools for removing the bulk of cast-
on molded detailing. By removing most of the "overburden" with these
flush-cutters, this then allows the use of a sharp chisel blade to
finish the work with minimal chance of collateral damage. My " sharp
chisel blade" is one of several X-acto blades that have been ground to
shape, i.e. to a narrower profile, and have the corners rounded off.

IMHO, the most important issue with the good use of these blades is to
keep them SHARP! My small Arkansas whet stone is out on the bench
along with a piece of scrap leather as a strop, and I will commonly
whet and strop the blade several times during a sitting or session. I
do the same with razor blades, and in this regard, both X-acto and
good razor blades will last an entire season; and they are sharper and
smoother in doing so than when they were first removed from their
packaging. When the blades become nicked or the profiles are no longer
level -and will no longer hold an edge-, only then do they get the
heave-ho.

I have the Micro Mark chisel, and although I do like it, its use has
not yet persuaded me to give up my handy-dandy razor and X-acto blades.

Denny


Re: Bieber 1947 4th quarter *02 cars

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
I don't know what RDY is, but CRP is Central of Pennsylvania, which was a
subsidiary of Central of New Jersey for tax purposes. IIRC it was a court
order in 1952(?) that forced CNJ to abolish the CRP.
Probably means nothing in terms of Frank's abolishment/divestiture, but I photographed a CRP 70-ton flatcar at Colfax, CA, waiting in an eastbound freight in January 1959. The load was one beautiful sailboat, and one disheveled transient who probably had a very cold ride up from Roseville.

Tom Madden

94521 - 94540 of 181087