Date   

Re: Car weighting

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tony, with the improvements in the free-rolling of
trucks due to better wheels and more accurately
fitted axle lengths (yes, I know REBOXX is out of
business, but there's hope for another source),
locomotive performance has been enhanced
tremendously. The irony of improved trucks isn't
that they roll better, that's obvious, but the
apparent improvement of your existing locomotives
because the free rolling trucks let them pull
more.

I use the NMRA standards for weighting cars simply
because that's what it is: a standard.

Schuyler

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
<main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony
Thompson
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 9:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Car weighting

Bruce Metcalf wrote:

I use the NMRA weights in HO. I have also found
that when there are problems, it's not the
absolute weight, but combinations of light and
heavy cars in one train. That, or putting light
cars or just too many cars around too-tight
curves.

There were studies in the model magazines
back in the 1950s that concluded (possibly
correctly) that the biggest factor in car weight
performance was CONSISTENT car weight. As Bruce
says, mixing heavier and lighter cars can bite
you. I think one could very probably choose a
weight below the NMRA weight now recommended, but
the key would be, again, to STICK to that weight
and get as close as you can with every car.
I continue to use the NMRA weight, but then
again, I don't have any heavy grades that can hurt
locomotive performance.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: Car weighting

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Metcalf wrote:

I use the NMRA weights in HO. I have also found that when there are problems, it's not the absolute weight, but combinations of light and heavy cars in one train. That, or putting light cars or just too many cars around too-tight curves.
There were studies in the model magazines back in the 1950s that concluded (possibly correctly) that the biggest factor in car weight performance was CONSISTENT car weight. As Bruce says, mixing heavier and lighter cars can bite you. I think one could very probably choose a weight below the NMRA weight now recommended, but the key would be, again, to STICK to that weight and get as close as you can with every car.
I continue to use the NMRA weight, but then again, I don't have any heavy grades that can hurt locomotive performance.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: Car weighting

Bruce A. Metcalf
 

On 6/26/20 4:37 PM, Bud Rindfleisch wrote:

    Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add  weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight.
So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight?
I think it's important to understand the conditions under which the NMRA established those weight standards. It was an era before RP-25 wheel contours, before needle-point axles, and when car sides were as likely to be cardstock as Zamac. Thus the standards are optimized for very heavy, bad-rolling cars.

I think it's well past time for us (meaning we NMRA members who care enough) to go through the testing again to see if the standards hold up with modern technology. But until we do....

I use the NMRA weights in HO. I have also found that when there are problems, it's not the absolute weight, but combinations of light and heavy cars in one train. That, or putting light cars or just too many cars around too-tight curves.

The NMRA gives us a starting point. It also reminds us that you probably need more than just so much per inch. I know modelers -- and clubs --
that have deliberately used underweight cars with good success. I think the key is to make *all* the cars underweight by about the same amount.

Don't know if that answers your question, but I tried.

Cheers,
/ Bruce /


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Tony Thompson
 

Ken Adams wrote:

Shell owned the Martinez refinery in that period but I have them pretty well covered with a collection of UTLX cars.

      In your and my modeling period, Ken, UTLX was pretty substantially in bed with the "baby Standards" such as Standard of California, and to my knowledge had nothing to do with Shell.

Tony Thompson




Re: SP F-70-7 image

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Jackson wrote:

Thanks Garth. Probably needed to see a more overhead shot to be able to see the cradle shape. Could coils be loaded the full length of the cradle?

    Depends on the outside and inside diameter of the coils, and on the width of the strip. But the "standard" coils in use at the time these cars were built were loaded two at each end, total of four coils. I have seen one SP photo with 7 or 8 coils of distinctly smaller diameter.

Tony Thompson




Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Chuck Soule
 

Having worked in California oil production in the 70s and early 80s, and having some familiarity with other parties besides the companies I worked for,  the other respondents have it correct - Conoco did not produce crude or market products in California.  That's not to say an occasional car might have made it west with a specialty load or because it might have been used short term by another oil company to fill a rolling-stock gap.  But it would not be likely to see an Conoco car anywhere in California or Western Washington and Oregon.  I know that Conoco was marketed out of Spokane for far eastern Washington and the Idaho panhandle, but not farther west, and I am uncertain about eastern Oregon.  But for California - very low probability.

Chuck Soule


Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

Douglas Harding
 

Bob the only railroad owned poultry cars I am aware of are evidenced from a
photo, CP 259102 and a drawing, Michigan Central 60001 (a Continental Live
Poultry car). The Southern Historical Society has drawing dated 1906 for a
poultry car, it does not list a number series. Kristin Dummler, in her
clinic, listed the following railroads owning poultry cars: Michigan
Central, Lehigh Valley, Southern, Lackawanna, Norfolk and Western, and more.

I have a list of poultry cars based upon photos. The above CP car is the
only photo of a railroad owned car on the list. I don't have a list of
railroad owned Poultry cars, nor do I know of one. Kirstin might have one.

1924 is the year that Palace Poultry Car Co was formed, creating a
competitor for the near monopoly the Live Poultry Transit Co had at the
time. PPCC had 251 cars in 1924 vs 2000 the Live Poultry Transit Co had. The
24 cars reported in the book you cited represents 10% of the PPCC fleet and
approximately 1% of all poultry cars in existence. The maximum number of
poultry cars was a little over 2800 cars in the late 20s. North American Car
acquired the PPCC fleet in 1926, and then acquired LPT in 1930.

There were a few other companies with poultry cars, most prior to 1910 and
most only had a few cars. By 1924 Live Poultry Transit was the dominate
carrier.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Ian Cranstone
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 12:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

On Jun 26, 2020, at 12:50 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io
<chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars
According to the book, Car Shop Practice, from the Board of Railway
Mechanical Officials and the Railway Training Institute (published in 1925),
there were 24 railroad-owned poultry cars in service in 1924.
Does anyone have a 1924 ORER that would tell us which railroads owned
these poultry cars?

Four poultry cars were listed by Canadian roads in 1924, apparently all
converted from other cars circa 1923:

CN 149900-149901
CP 259000-259001

CP would add four more cars in the mid-1930s (CP 259100-259103, which were
renumbered 272200-272203 in 1947).

Ian CranstoneOsgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@nakina.net
http://freightcars.nakina.net


Re: Car weighting

Douglas Harding
 

I follow the NMRA recommendations. Mostly for consistency. Most new freight cars I purchase are delivered close to NMRA standards and come with quality trucks and wheelsets. I use IM wheelsets almost exclusively and have found with my new standards using IM wheelsets, Accurail trucks (when others don’t roll well) and Kadee couplers, I can use lighter cars. And I have some, typically flatcars where it is hard to add weight. But I prefer the NMRA recommendations. If for no other reason the engines have to actually work pulling the train.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bud Rindfleisch
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 3:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Car weighting

 

Howdy friends,
    Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add  weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. 
So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight?
     Bud Rindfleisch


Re: Car weighting

Bud Rindfleisch
 

Brian Carlson,
    Yes, I knew Dave well, an excellent modeler and Mr Frugal when it came to using inexpensive materials to construct his layouts! Nice to hear that weights did indeed help with staying upright! Dave modeled in S scale for a while, among many other scales!
     Bud Rindfleisch
    


Re: Car weighting

Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Bud,

I modeled in S scale for several years using AM, SHS, PRS, AF conversions and other cars with stock trucks and KD 5 couplers. I hand laid all my track and turnouts with codes 100, 83, 70 and some 55 rail. I never added any weight above stock and had no issues with derailing whether pushing or pulling the cars.

I've gone back to HO and use stock weights in all my cars. They mostly have stock trucks with KD wheelsets or KD trucks. I have a few with IM wheelsets. My track is all Walthers c83 and I use #4 & #5 turnouts and #7.5 curved ones. I have no issues with derailing. I have one long 3.2% grade.

I personally find the Enemaray weight standards too heavy and not necessary.

Just my 2¢.

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Friday, June 26, 2020, 03:37:30 PM CDT, Bud Rindfleisch <blackdiamondrr@...> wrote:


Howdy friends,
    Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add  weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. 
So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight?
     Bud Rindfleisch


Re: Car weighting

Brian Carlson
 

Weight to the NMRA at a minimum myself. 

On our club layout we had an O-scale modeler that didn’t add any weight. The o scale atlas and intermountain cars would just fall off the track. Everything runs better now that we weighed the cars.  (Bud I think you knew Dave Birmingham)

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jun 26, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:

Howdy friends,
    Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add  weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. 
So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight?
     Bud Rindfleisch


Car weighting

Bud Rindfleisch
 

Howdy friends,
    Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add  weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. 
So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight?
     Bud Rindfleisch


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] SP F-70-7 image

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Andy;

 

Generally, 70-ton cars got 3 - 60-72” coils positioned toward each end, with none in the center, but other variations did happen, when loaders didn’t know better.  Smaller coils = more coils. When 100-ton cars became the norm, they could load up to 7 even larger coils.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Jackson
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 1:37 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] SP F-70-7 image

 

Thanks Garth. Probably needed to see a more overhead shot to be able to see the cradle shape. Could coils be loaded the full length of the cradle?

Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA

 


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Ken Adams
 

Thanks to all who responded so quickly. My suspicion that the car was not geographically appropriate is confirmed.  As the handrails are broken so I have no problem removing them and repainting a nice dull tank car black. Picking an appropriate owner/lessee will be a while before I get to this as it will be about #49 in my project queue. I have read Tony Thompson's article on Flying A recently.  I am leaning towards Associated as they owned the Rodeo refinery in the period I model. Shell owned the Martinez refinery in that period but I have them pretty well covered with a collection of UTLX cars.

Another project for the near future as my hermetic solitude continues.
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Dave Parker
 

Ken:

In addition to Shell, take a good look at Unocal and Flying A (Associated).  Tony Thompson has an excellent blog piece on the latter.

If you want any help identifying ACF Type 21s within those fleets, give me a shout-out off-group.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Richard Townsend
 

The scheme is not a foobie.  According to Richard Hendrickson from some time ago, the aluminum with black billboard is good for the early 1950s. But a Conoco tank car seems unlikely to be seen in Port Costa as Conoco was not marketing there. OTOH, maybe Conoco picked up some special additives or other supplies from California.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2020 11:38 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

I picked up a slightly damaged (handrail busted) Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car at my Local Hobby Shop (open by appointment and you must wear a mask) from the used shelf. The paint scheme is a silver CONOCO.  First, is this a foobie as a CONOCO car and if not what years would the silver paint scheme cover? 

I am interested in adding this as at least one ACF Type 21 uninsulated car to my growing line of tank cars to be shuttled around the small yard of my early 1950's Port Costa, California layout. I acquired several of the insulated Type 21 CDLX cars as unsold from the NMRA 2011 National Convention a few years back. 

I have done a search on this groups pages to see if there is any relevant information. I have been trying to open the Train Life copy of the February 1998 Rail Model Journal for Richard Hendrickson's article on Type 21's but after 60 minutes only 3 pages of that article have appeared. One page that did downloaded indicated that CONOCO tank cars would be used mostly in the Colorado, Texas and eastern high plains states. If so a CONOCO car might not be appropriate sitting in a California Bay Area yard for any period of time. None of the research thus far has really answered my questions.

I understand there is also an article on replacing the easily broken handrails with metal rails in another RMJ article.  I do have hypodermic needle tube on hand. Unfortunately my recent experience with PSC cast brass handrails has not been very good (difficult to drill out rail holes) but I have several Tichy tank car detailing sets with stanchions on hand to try next. 

As I have to replace the handrails, repainting is not out of the question to another black painted leasing/operating company scheme. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Dave Parker
 

Hi Ken:

Not sure why you are having so much trouble downloading from the Train Life site.  I had the entire issue after about 1 minute.

Here's the excerpt that should be of most interest to you:



Since you seem keenly interested in tank cars, I would strongly recommend "The Gas Station in America" by Jakle and Sculle.  Some great stuff in there about oil company history, and the entire supply chain going back to the beginning.  In it, there are three maps (1926, 1940, 1990) showing the presence of Conoco retail outlets across the country.  Zero in CA, OR, or NV.  Conoco was the Rocky Mountain area "baby standard" after the 1911 breakup of Standard Oil.  Although its territory expanded over the years, it did not include CA .

Last, I actually prefer the plastic handrails on the P2000 Type 21a.  They flex enough without breaking, and rebound right back into shape if you squeeze one (gently).  I did break one, but simply glued a butt joint to repair it (they are styrene).  Tangent, which is the state of the art with plastic tank cars, uses plastic hand-rails, not brass, presumably because the brass gets bent and is a PITA to re-straighten.

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Sunshine B&O M27B 1950s color using Scalecoat I

Chuck Cover
 

Group,

I am working on a Sunshine #58.3 B&O M27B boxcar.  I like to use Scalecoat paint and was wondering if someone could offer a color/color mix for this car in the early to mid-1950s?  It seems as if B&O boxcars really varied in color over the years.  Thanks

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Ken,

You are correct. AFAIK, CONOCO did not have operations in California. I have Richard's February 1998 article before me. He says "In the 1940s and '50s, most Conoco cars were painted aluminum with black underframes, bottom sheets and lettering," and " . . . Continental Oil Company's Conoco was a mountain and plains states brand."

I would go with SHPX as your best bet for a repaint. GATX and UTLX did have some 8K Type 21 tanks acquired second-hand, but they must have been rare. Richard's article shows one of each. You might also consider SCCX, Shell on the West Coast. 

Hope this is of help.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 2:38 PM Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:
I picked up a slightly damaged (handrail busted) Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car at my Local Hobby Shop (open by appointment and you must wear a mask) from the used shelf. The paint scheme is a silver CONOCO.  First, is this a foobie as a CONOCO car and if not what years would the silver paint scheme cover? 

I am interested in adding this as at least one ACF Type 21 uninsulated car to my growing line of tank cars to be shuttled around the small yard of my early 1950's Port Costa, California layout. I acquired several of the insulated Type 21 CDLX cars as unsold from the NMRA 2011 National Convention a few years back. 

I have done a search on this groups pages to see if there is any relevant information. I have been trying to open the Train Life copy of the February 1998 Rail Model Journal for Richard Hendrickson's article on Type 21's but after 60 minutes only 3 pages of that article have appeared. One page that did downloaded indicated that CONOCO tank cars would be used mostly in the Colorado, Texas and eastern high plains states. If so a CONOCO car might not be appropriate sitting in a California Bay Area yard for any period of time. None of the research thus far has really answered my questions.

I understand there is also an article on replacing the easily broken handrails with metal rails in another RMJ article.  I do have hypodermic needle tube on hand. Unfortunately my recent experience with PSC cast brass handrails has not been very good (difficult to drill out rail holes) but I have several Tichy tank car detailing sets with stanchions on hand to try next. 

As I have to replace the handrails, repainting is not out of the question to another black painted leasing/operating company scheme. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

earlyrail
 

Well in the Oct 1923 ORER he Southern had 24 SP (Poultry) cars
series 44875 - 44899
I recall that one of the northeastern roads had a few, but can not locate then on a quick seatch

Howard Garner

9461 - 9480 of 184302