Date   

Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Interesting! I have been told by ex-Army folks that this was a huge deal
during the Cold War. We were worried that the Soviets would blockade us and
we would not be able to get critical metals for aircraft production, amongst
others.

I have always wondered what special additives might have been used in nuclear
vessel/reactor construction, and what things might have been shipped around
the country for our military or specialty steel production, as it was a far
larger "industry" than most might expect, and most of us don't model it. And
it didn't just move around in "U.S. Army" box cars, as some might think.
Those strategic minerals went by regular RR car.

The stockpile facility near me was behind a cyclone fence, with a gate and
guard. It was up a branch in the woods hidden from view, but had only a
trailer office and small piles of different colored ores piled here and
there. Yes, the local USSteel and other steel-makers were nearby, and yes,
they did make "specialty" steels, so none of this should be surprising, but
all the same, I sure would like to know what was coming from where, and in
whose cars!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
richtownsend@netscape.net
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:24 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset
Twin)



Back in the early 1960s I lived on the New Cumberland Army Depot, which is
across the Susquehanna River from and a little south of Harrisburg. It is
immediately adjacent to the PRR's four-track main line along the west shore
of the river. There were scattered small stockpiles of exotic ores on the
base (when I say small I mean about single carload size). They were labeled
with what they were and where they came from. The one I remember was chromium
ore from the USSR. The stockpiles were pretty exciting for this childhood
rock collector with their exotic contents and sources.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil
<mailto:elden.j.gatwood%40usace.army.mil> >
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:01 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset
Twin)

Here's another one. During the post-WW2 period, the U.S. government and
critical industries, were importing, and sometimes stockpiling vital minerals
and metals only found in economically viable quantities outside the U.S.
Many entered the U.S. through east coast ports, particularly Chromium (40% of
US needs from Turkey, 38% from South Africa; 79% of all US needs from
abroad), Cobalt (77% imported, much from the Congo), Columbium (most from
Nigeria and Belgian Congo), Manganese (majority from India, South Africa,
Gold Coast, Cuba, Belgian Congo and Brazil), some Tungsten (that coming from
Spain, Portugal and Brazil). All of this entering from eastern US ports would
have most likely been loaded into eastern road hoppers, for shipment
elsewhere.

Since shipment of these commodities was done on the railroads, some research
into what industries are served by your railroad might come up with some
interesting answers.

BTW, I found a strategic stockpile facility served on my section of the PRR.
Hmmm.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Dave Nelson
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset
Twin)

Another possibility is with the Holly sugar mill (perhaps under a different
name in 1947) in Tracy -- or any of the several nearby sugar mills. Sugar
mills use coke for purification purposes and I've seen evidence in the WP
papers in Sacramento that coke was brought from as far away as Alabama for
this purpose. No idea why Utah Coke, Colorado Coke, Arkansas Coke, or locally
produced Petroleum Coke was not used... but hey, there's that record of the
Alabama Coke that shows that sometimes at least, it wasn't.

With that in mind, scratch out coal and plug in coke and everything else in
Tim's message makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----

Simple: Coal sometimes travels long distances for some particular industrial
use (IOW not so much for heating or steam production).
Since DT&I served Michigan & Ohio (AAR District #15) a DT&I car on ANY
railroad in MI, OH or IN (which comprise District #15) could be loaded for
ANY destination in North America without regard to its ownership by the DT&I,
once the rules about loading a car off its home road were observed (i.e.
basically no more suitable equivalent car was immediately available).
Since the most suitable car in this case would have been an SP (T&NO) hopper,
it's reasonable to think that the chances of an SP hopper in Ohio were no
better than the chances of a DT&I hopper in California... So the roll of the
dice gave us the DT&I hopper in Tracy on this occasion. (And on another
occasion someone photographed T&NO #4406 on the Nickel Plate...)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Wabash large flag lettering scheme

cef39us <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Chet;

I am glad you have been digging this stuff up! This is great info!

Could you tell me, in your opinion, if any of the 8-panel 40' steel rebuilds,
like the Sunshine mini-kit using the Tichy box car, were repainted into any
of the heart or flag schemes? Or did they go into the 60's and retirement in
the "only name" scheme?

Ditto for the Wabash steel rebuilds of the earlier single sheath cars also
done by Sunshine? The 10'IH and 10'6" IH cars?

I guess I have not seen photos of either in a "logo" scheme, and was
wondering if Wabash just opted not to repaint those old cars...


Elden,

Starting in May 1948 all new box cars received the small flag when built. This continued until 1956 when the heart emblem was introduced. In January 1953, the cars represented by the Sunshine mini-kit, were added to receive the small flag. It is not known if the flags were stenciled on existing paint or added when the cars were repainted. In March 1955, a letter directed that all steel box cars were to receive the small flag when repainted. This covers the
Sunshine 10' IH and 10'-6 IH rebuilts. The small flag was used until the big flag began being used in 1960. The heart emblem was only used on new cars.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)

Richard Townsend
 

Back in the early 1960s I lived on the New Cumberland Army Depot, which is across the Susquehanna River from and a little south of Harrisburg. It is immediately adjacent to the PRR's four-track main line along the west shore of the river. There were scattered small stockpiles of exotic ores on the base (when I say small I mean about single carload size). They were labeled with what they were and where they came from. The one I remember was chromium ore from the USSR. The stockpiles were pretty exciting for this childhood rock collector with their exotic contents and sources.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:01 am
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)




Here's another one. During the post-WW2 period, the U.S. government and
critical industries, were importing, and sometimes stockpiling vital minerals
and metals only found in economically viable quantities outside the U.S.
Many entered the U.S. through east coast ports, particularly Chromium (40% of
US needs from Turkey, 38% from South Africa; 79% of all US needs from
abroad), Cobalt (77% imported, much from the Congo), Columbium (most from
Nigeria and Belgian Congo), Manganese (majority from India, South Africa,
Gold Coast, Cuba, Belgian Congo and Brazil), some Tungsten (that coming from
Spain, Portugal and Brazil). All of this entering from eastern US ports
would have most likely been loaded into eastern road hoppers, for shipment
elsewhere.

Since shipment of these commodities was done on the railroads, some research
into what industries are served by your railroad might come up with some
interesting answers.

BTW, I found a strategic stockpile facility served on my section of the PRR.
Hmmm.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Nelson
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset
Twin)

Another possibility is with the Holly sugar mill (perhaps under a different
name in 1947) in Tracy -- or any of the several nearby sugar mills. Sugar
mills use coke for purification purposes and I've seen evidence in the WP
papers in Sacramento that coke was brought from as far away as Alabama for
this purpose. No idea why Utah Coke, Colorado Coke, Arkansas Coke, or locally
produced Petroleum Coke was not used... but hey, there's that record of the
Alabama Coke that shows that sometimes at least, it wasn't.

With that in mind, scratch out coal and plug in coke and everything else in
Tim's message makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----

Simple: Coal sometimes travels long distances for some particular industrial
use (IOW not so much for heating or steam production).
Since DT&I served Michigan & Ohio (AAR District #15) a DT&I car on ANY
railroad in MI, OH or IN (which comprise District #15) could be loaded for
ANY destination in North America without regard to its ownership by the DT&I,
once the rules about loading a car off its home road were observed (i.e.
basically no more suitable equivalent car was immediately available).
Since the most suitable car in this case would have been an SP (T&NO) hopper,
it's reasonable to think that the chances of an SP hopper in Ohio were no
better than the chances of a DT&I hopper in California... So the roll of the
dice gave us the DT&I hopper in Tracy on this occasion. (And on another
occasion someone photographed T&NO #4406 on the Nickel Plate...)


Re: Heap Shields was Re: Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

Roundhouse also used to offer a C&O-style notched heap shield, also a separate part. I believe it was meant to go on their 40' gondola, but AFAIK it was also correct for some classes of hoppers.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:


Stewart did offer the heap shield at one time as a separate part. I don't know if Bowser is still offering the or not. It was a add-on part to make the lone original demonstrator PRR H39 which had the heap shield. The shield was dropped from the production run of H39's. The shield was included on the demonstrator at the insistence of C&O who along with N&W partnered with the PRR to develop the H39.



Heap Shields was Re: Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:




Stewart did offer the heap shield at one time as a separate part. I don't know if Bowser is still offering the or not.
The biggest problem is the "heap shields" used during the era twin hoppers were built were an integral part pf the end… that is, the end sheet and whatever bracing was used on the end just extended unbroken above the level of the top of the sides. Some later applications to larger hoppers built in the sixties had heap shields that appeared to be add-ons that were attached to the top chord of the end framing. These would be a natural for a separate detail part (and somebody did offer them at one time) but don't do any good for the steam era twins.

To do ends with heap shields entirely new end inserts are required: one new set for each different shape. $$$

Dennis


Re: Wabash large flag lettering scheme

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Chet;

I am glad you have been digging this stuff up! This is great info!

Could you tell me, in your opinion, if any of the 8-panel 40' steel rebuilds,
like the Sunshine mini-kit using the Tichy box car, were repainted into any
of the heart or flag schemes? Or did they go into the 60's and retirement in
the "only name" scheme?

Ditto for the Wabash steel rebuilds of the earlier single sheath cars also
done by Sunshine? The 10'IH and 10'6" IH cars?

I guess I have not seen photos of either in a "logo" scheme, and was
wondering if Wabash just opted not to repaint those old cars...

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
cef39us
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:52 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Wabash large flag lettering scheme



Group,

I went back through my notes after stating that the large flag lettering was
introduced on the 91000-91514 series 40' box cars built in 1961. I made an
incorrect statement.

I found drawing C-5060-5 dated Feb. 16, 1960, showing the large flag
lettering which was to be used when repainting 50' steel double door
automobile cars. Also drawing C-4340 dated Dec. 15, 1960 for 40' box car
repaints. Thus cars were probably being repainted during 1960 and 1961 with
the big flags prior to the arrival of the 91000's in the fall of 1961.
New cars, both 40' and 50', arriving in 1960, were still lettered with the
heart emblem, used on new box and auto cars since 1956. By 1959, car roofs
received black Mortex #4 cement, instead of the car color, freight car red
#10, and the underframes were being painted black instead of the FCR.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Heap Shields was Re: Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Michael Aufderheide
 

Westerfield sells a 'Hopper Car Detail Set' # 2190 which includes angled heap shealds.  they also sell two other radial hopper ends as detail parts which could be used as donors for others. 
 
See:
 
www.westerfield.biz and go to the Detail Parts link at the bottom of the page.
 
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, SUVCWORR@aol.com <SUVCWORR@aol.com> wrote:


From: SUVCWORR@aol.com <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Subject: Heap Shields was Re: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:56 AM


 






Stewart did offer the heap shield at one time as a separate part. I don't know if Bowser is still offering the or not. It was a add-on part to make the lone original demonstrator PRR H39 which had the heap shield. The shield was dropped from the production run of H39's. The shield was included on the demonstrator at the insistence of C&O who along with N&W partnered with the PRR to develop the H39.

-----Original Message-----
From: lnnrr <lnnrr@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:28 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin

I would also point out that the Athearn offset twin has always seemed
flawed to me. It seems about a foot too wide. The flat end version
hasn't been available as undec or L&N for ages it seems, then the
heap shield version has one tapered end and one notch end.
When I look at photos of L&N cars, every notch end car is notched
both ends. Every taper end car is tapered both ends. Never found
one with the Athearn version, one of each.
I really NEED more offset hoppers. OK, maybe need is too strong a
word. Want.
Does anyone offer add-on heap shields? To put on flat end cars?
Come on Dennis, number 7712 by Christmas? Please Santa?
Chuck Peck













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Mark;

It all depends on what you model, layout-wise, as far as industries and
run-through traffic. If you model an area through which traffic had loads
that went to industries that needed minerals or semi-finished materials
needed by end-users on the other end of your railroad, you could have seen
cars from most anywhere. I always wondered about why I saw SP or ATSF gons,
hoppers, and covered hoppers on the PRR, but once I got to researching what
might have come east from those areas, I found good reasons that an SP
hopper, for example, might have bounced around the PRR for awhile. The PRR
was short of both hoppers and gons in my period, and an occasional "capture"
was not that rare. Sure, the vast majority of hoppers on the PRR were from
PRR, P&LE, B&O, NYC at other eastern roads, but introducing one or two cars
from far-off roads on occasion in your operating cycle provides a degree of
realism that gets one closer to what really happened on the real thing.

Anthracite coal, for one, had special properties desired in a number of
industries, and was only found in select parts of the U.S. Foundries,
steel-makers, and water treatment plants all used anthracite coal. A Reading
or DT&I hopper carrying anthracite to an end-user in the west is very
plausible. But as Tony points out, you might have seen that car only once in
that location.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:30 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin



Mark Pierce wrote:
What is a DT&I hopper doing in Tracy in Oct. 1948?

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html
<http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html>;
From the look of the springs and bolster, it's empty. Hoppers did get around,
but rarely to California from eastern roads. My own favorite example is the
Reading twin photographed, empty, in Los Angeles a few years later. But I'm
still not going to model it--or the DT&I car either.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

All;

The overlay method does not address several other detail differences between
the std and alt std cars, notably side sill, the taper at the top corners of
each side, and height differences. We still need a good plastic model of an
alternate standard AAR offset twin.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:51 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



Andy

The quickest spotting feature is the 'gusset' ribs along the top chord. The
AAR standard cars use a simple L shaped angle, while the alt standard cars
use a hat section rib. And as you point out, the reinforced vertical rivet
seams are the other major spotting feature.

Sunshine actually made a mini-kit for the alt std car. You are supposed to
file the sides of the Atlas (or Athearn?) car smooth (no detail of any kind
including gussets) and then you apply a thin resin overlay on the side. I
haven't tried it yet so I do not know how successful it will be.

Tim O'Connor

Schuyler,

The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail
is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center
ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line.
Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of
the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg>;

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg>;

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg>;

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg>;

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg>;

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the
side sills that Ed is talking about here. I am looking forward to this
kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the 50-ton end is
disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the
ENTIRE model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's
page have been waiting for these models for a long time. And since I
had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about (OK, I'm dense
at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm
<http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm>;

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper




On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:

Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of
safety appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone
educate me?
Dave,
When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built,
one of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from
another is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used
from 1934 to
1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version
(used from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track
from the bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly
between the bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949
where new cars could have either version. By the way, the same side
sill variations were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.

The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while
the Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a
side sill of the early version.

Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences
and specialty items.

Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the
end to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom
of the end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced
Z-sections.
Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add
to the complexity and cost of tooling.

It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end
configuration for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton
model. It represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement
having Z-section vertical supports that are closely spaced near the
middle. The Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead
are rectangular cross sections, because otherwise the body could not
be ejected from the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the
side arrangement creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.

There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for
more road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with
making other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled
from their 70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end
despite the relative rarity of the car that will be offered.
Depending on sales once the models are released, perhaps Accurail
might be open to offering other end variations that were more
commonly found on prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.

My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that
end I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in
producing accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Here's another one. During the post-WW2 period, the U.S. government and
critical industries, were importing, and sometimes stockpiling vital minerals
and metals only found in economically viable quantities outside the U.S.
Many entered the U.S. through east coast ports, particularly Chromium (40% of
US needs from Turkey, 38% from South Africa; 79% of all US needs from
abroad), Cobalt (77% imported, much from the Congo), Columbium (most from
Nigeria and Belgian Congo), Manganese (majority from India, South Africa,
Gold Coast, Cuba, Belgian Congo and Brazil), some Tungsten (that coming from
Spain, Portugal and Brazil). All of this entering from eastern US ports
would have most likely been loaded into eastern road hoppers, for shipment
elsewhere.

Since shipment of these commodities was done on the railroads, some research
into what industries are served by your railroad might come up with some
interesting answers.

BTW, I found a strategic stockpile facility served on my section of the PRR.
Hmmm.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Nelson
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset
Twin)



Another possibility is with the Holly sugar mill (perhaps under a different
name in 1947) in Tracy -- or any of the several nearby sugar mills. Sugar
mills use coke for purification purposes and I've seen evidence in the WP
papers in Sacramento that coke was brought from as far away as Alabama for
this purpose. No idea why Utah Coke, Colorado Coke, Arkansas Coke, or locally
produced Petroleum Coke was not used... but hey, there's that record of the
Alabama Coke that shows that sometimes at least, it wasn't.

With that in mind, scratch out coal and plug in coke and everything else in
Tim's message makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----

Simple: Coal sometimes travels long distances for some particular industrial
use (IOW not so much for heating or steam production).
Since DT&I served Michigan & Ohio (AAR District #15) a DT&I car on ANY
railroad in MI, OH or IN (which comprise District #15) could be loaded for
ANY destination in North America without regard to its ownership by the DT&I,
once the rules about loading a car off its home road were observed (i.e.
basically no more suitable equivalent car was immediately available).
Since the most suitable car in this case would have been an SP (T&NO) hopper,
it's reasonable to think that the chances of an SP hopper in Ohio were no
better than the chances of a DT&I hopper in California... So the roll of the
dice gave us the DT&I hopper in Tracy on this occasion. (And on another
occasion someone photographed T&NO #4406 on the Nickel Plate...)


Heap Shields was Re: Re: Accurail Offset Twin

SUVCWORR@...
 

Stewart did offer the heap shield at one time as a separate part. I don't know if Bowser is still offering the or not. It was a add-on part to make the lone original demonstrator PRR H39 which had the heap shield. The shield was dropped from the production run of H39's. The shield was included on the demonstrator at the insistence of C&O who along with N&W partnered with the PRR to develop the H39.

-----Original Message-----
From: lnnrr <lnnrr@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:28 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin


I would also point out that the Athearn offset twin has always seemed
flawed to me. It seems about a foot too wide. The flat end version
hasn't been available as undec or L&N for ages it seems, then the
heap shield version has one tapered end and one notch end.
When I look at photos of L&N cars, every notch end car is notched
both ends. Every taper end car is tapered both ends. Never found
one with the Athearn version, one of each.
I really NEED more offset hoppers. OK, maybe need is too strong a
word. Want.
Does anyone offer add-on heap shields? To put on flat end cars?
Come on Dennis, number 7712 by Christmas? Please Santa?
Chuck Peck


Wabash large flag lettering scheme

cef39us <cfrench@...>
 

Group,

I went back through my notes after stating that the large flag lettering was introduced on the 91000-91514 series 40' box cars
built in 1961. I made an incorrect statement.

I found drawing C-5060-5 dated Feb. 16, 1960, showing the large flag
lettering which was to be used when repainting 50' steel double door
automobile cars. Also drawing C-4340 dated Dec. 15, 1960 for 40' box car repaints. Thus cars were probably being repainted during 1960 and 1961 with the big flags prior to the arrival of the 91000's in the fall of 1961.
New cars, both 40' and 50', arriving in 1960, were still lettered with the heart emblem, used on new box and auto cars since 1956. By 1959, car roofs received black Mortex #4 cement, instead
of the car color, freight car red #10, and the underframes were being painted black instead of the FCR.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: M. Vaughn Decals

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Folks;

Can anyone tell me which set, E-1, E-2, or E-3, has the heart logo, and
whether it contains different sizes?

Is any lettering in any set useful for lettering a gon in the late scheme
with large letters? and flag?

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:45 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] M. Vaughn Decals



Francis, here is the list of Mark's decals with descriptions.
The set you asked about is the "P" set. The sets marked "**"
were originally available from George Drake, DDS.
Tim O'Connor

---------------------------------------
Set Description

A **|WABASH 3-color set blue/white/black w/book B **|WABASH individual white
sheet C **|WABASH individual blue sheet D **|WABASH individual black sheet
E-1 **|WABASH boxcars steam era (4)
E-2 **|WABASH boxcars steam-diesel era (4)
E-3 |WABASH boxcars diesel era (4)
F |WABASH cylindrical covered hopper
| w/ letter guide & color slide
G-1 **|WABASH diesel solid blue units
G-2 **|WABASH diesel multicolor units
G-3 **|WABASH flag logos multicolor and reverse
G-4 **|WABASH diesel switchers
G-5 |WABASH diesel switchers aluminum colors H |WABASH flatcars (2) w/ letter
guide I |ILLINOIS TERMINAL airslide (1) w/ letter guide J |GM&O covered
hoppers (5) w/ letter guide K |photos of GM&O covered hoppers (7) specify
slides/prints L |PRR airslides (2) w/ letter guide M |ILLINOIS TERMINAL RBL
DD boxcar 2 choices w/ letter guide N **|WABASH passenger cars and express
boxcar
| w/ letter guide Yellow block letters
O **|WABASH passenger cars Red/Black for UP scheme w/ letter guide P |60 ft
autoparts boxcars C&EI/DTS/PRR/WAB (4) w/ letter guide Q |C&IM RBL PD boxcar
w/ letter guide requires CHAMP HB304 R **|NKP piggyback trailers 2 blue 1
silver w/ letter guide S **|WABASH caboose (5) all variations!
T **|M&StL boxcars white letters (2) w/ letter guide
U-1 |M&StL open top hoppers (2)
V-1 |M&StL covered hoppers pre-1956 (2) grey car
V-2 |M&StL covered hoppers pre-1956 (2) black car
V-3 |M&StL covered hopper post-1956 (1) grey car W |M&StL wood reefers late
scheme (2) w/ letter guide X |C&EI road diesel (2) includes stripes etc w/
letter guide Y |WABASH sand covered hopper OVERLAND #3246 Z |M&StL 3 bay cov
hopper slogan LIMITED EDITION AA **|WABASH stockcars (3) BB |M&StL boxcars --
2 different cars w/ Yellow and White letters CC |WABASH open top hoppers (8
types) plus AA car
EE-1 |M&StL caboose pre-1956 w/ letter guide
EE-2 |M&StL caboose post-1956 w/ letter guide FF |MILW 70t 3 bay covered
hopper w/ letter guide requires HERALD HH |M&StL RS-1 diesel red/white scheme
II |Peoria & Eastern caboose & boxcar (Jade Green) JJ |Van Dyke tankcar KK
|NYC diesels (late scheme)
MM-2 |P&E open top hopper 1949-1966 intermediate OO |IHB 40 foot boxcars (2
cars) NN |NKP flat cars RR |NYC stock car
96-2 |NH boxcar PS1 (use with Champ HN-7)
96-3 |NYC Early Bird 50 ft box car (need HB-335)
96-4 |L&M RS-3 and caboose
100 |Milwaukee ice service reefers blue scheme (2)
101 |W&LE box cars (2)
102 |DSS&A pulpwood flat (not exactly accurate)
104 |Fort St Union Depot NW-5
105 |NYC covered hoppers 1 airslide 1 2-bay
106 |NYC RDC Budd car
107 |
108 |Clinchfield 60' DP box car Greenville

--------------------------------------------
At 11/18/2009 02:20 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Does anyone know what is contained in decal set MEVP 60' Con-Cor Auto Parts
Car?

Thanks!
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.


Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)

Dave Nelson
 

Another possibility is with the Holly sugar mill (perhaps under a different
name in 1947) in Tracy -- or any of the several nearby sugar mills. Sugar
mills use coke for purification purposes and I've seen evidence in the WP
papers in Sacramento that coke was brought from as far away as Alabama for
this purpose. No idea why Utah Coke, Colorado Coke, Arkansas Coke, or
locally produced Petroleum Coke was not used... but hey, there's that record
of the Alabama Coke that shows that sometimes at least, it wasn't.

With that in mind, scratch out coal and plug in coke and everything else in
Tim's message makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----


Simple: Coal sometimes travels long distances for some particular industrial
use (IOW not so much for heating or steam production).
Since DT&I served Michigan & Ohio (AAR District #15) a DT&I car on ANY
railroad in MI, OH or IN (which comprise District #15) could be loaded for
ANY destination in North America without regard to its ownership by the
DT&I, once the rules about loading a car off its home road were observed
(i.e. basically no more suitable equivalent car was immediately available).
Since the most suitable car in this case would have been an SP (T&NO)
hopper, it's reasonable to think that the chances of an SP hopper in Ohio
were no better than the chances of a DT&I hopper in California... So the
roll of the dice gave us the DT&I hopper in Tracy on this occasion. (And on
another occasion someone photographed T&NO #4406 on the Nickel Plate...)


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny, two points:

(1) Grabs are far more visible on a hopper car with its
open ends, than on a gondola. The 3-bay is not as bad as
the Stewart hoppers, but park it next to a Kadee car and
it will be more obvious.

(2) I really like the Accurail gondola a lot. But I wish
it had separate grabs on the sides and ends, because not
every owner had the same arrangement.

But of course I realize there is a cost factor at work. New
tooling for a Tangent or Kadee quality model is going to be
far more expensive.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/19/2009 11:22 AM Thursday, you wrote:
....I would have appreciated something with separately applied
grabs...
"Separately applied grabs" has become a global uncritical mantra for
so many of us, the undersigned included. However, that said, and at
the risk of being labeled as the anti-Christ, I also think that we are
also not really critically assessing a selective number of production
models from the past few years that indeed may be absolutely OK, in
total or in part, with meticulously molded grabs. In this regard, I
will await inspection of the new model before rendering judgment.

The finely rendered molded grabs on Accurail's recent gondolas and
three bay hoppers are acceptable to me "as delivered", especially
after simple weathering. My thoughts in this regard received a
considerable boost this past January in Cocoa Beach when one of the
most respected members of this list showed me several of his finely
finished and weathered Accurail gons with all grabs intact and asked
whether or not I agreed with his considered choice to keep them.

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: WAG XM-1 box cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Bob and Eric for pointing out the Sylvan and F&C versions
of the XM-1. So there are THREE XM-1's out there?? Any one care to
take a stab at comparing the different models?? :-)

Thanks!

Tim O'Connor

At 11/19/2009 08:30 AM Thursday, you wrote:
Possibly because F&C has one available?
http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/6002.html

Eric


Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Starting over in a new house:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Are the WA&G cars also XM-1's? Why didn't Martin do lettering for
these cars? Were they modified so much it would have required a new
kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;item=130342818897

Tim O'Connor


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

....I would have appreciated something with separately applied
grabs...
"Separately applied grabs" has become a global uncritical mantra for
so many of us, the undersigned included. However, that said, and at
the risk of being labeled as the anti-Christ, I also think that we are
also not really critically assessing a selective number of production
models from the past few years that indeed may be absolutely OK, in
total or in part, with meticulously molded grabs. In this regard, I
will await inspection of the new model before rendering judgment.

The finely rendered molded grabs on Accurail's recent gondolas and
three bay hoppers are acceptable to me "as delivered", especially
after simple weathering. My thoughts in this regard received a
considerable boost this past January in Cocoa Beach when one of the
most respected members of this list showed me several of his finely
finished and weathered Accurail gons with all grabs intact and asked
whether or not I agreed with his considered choice to keep them.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

David Sieber
 

Gentlemen,

I find that the most obvious spotting feature of the AAR Alternate Standard twin offset hopper is the distinctly uneven spacing of the hat-section vertical stakes and associated single rivet lines between major double-riveted reinforcements at the ends and the center of the side. That is the car that those who model the C&O, Erie, NP, et al, have been waiting for these many years. Instead, Athearn, Train Miniature (don't forget them), Atlas, Kadee, and now Accurail keep producing yet another Standard hopper with evenly spaced L-stakes and single-riveted reinforcements - albeit with varied ends, sidesills, top chords, and sidestake angle and reinforcement orientations.

The Sunshine Mini-Kit for Alternate Standard sides yields a good-looking car from the Atlas hopper it's designed to modify. However, it involves a bit too much work per car for readily modeling the C&O or other major coal hopper fleet, albeit not too bad for a Pacific Northwest modeler who wants a few NP coal hoppers. Admittedly, it's a lot less work than trying to section an Athearn quad hopper to model a very nonstandard GN 73200-73699 twin offset side hopper, the GN's largest hopper purchase in 1931 from Standard Car Co. Accurail thankfully did give us the GN's Canton Car Co. twin hoppers.

Regards,
Dave Sieber
Reno NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Andy

The quickest spotting feature is the 'gusset' ribs along the
top chord. The AAR standard cars use a simple L shaped angle,
while the alt standard cars use a hat section rib. And as you
point out, the reinforced vertical rivet seams are the other
major spotting feature.

Sunshine actually made a mini-kit for the alt std car. You are
supposed to file the sides of the Atlas (or Athearn?) car smooth
(no detail of any kind including gussets) and then you apply a
thin resin overlay on the side. I haven't tried it yet so I do
not know how successful it will be.

Tim O'Connor



Schuyler,

The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line. Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:
>
> > Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
> > various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
> > appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
> > me?
> >
>
> Dave,
> When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
> of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
> is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
> 1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
> corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
> from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
> bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
> bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
> could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
> were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.
>
> The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
> Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
> version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
> sill of the early version.
>
> Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
> nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
> arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
> practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
> specialty items.
>
> Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
> to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
> end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
> Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
> ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
> the complexity and cost of tooling.
>
> It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
> for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
> represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
> vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
> Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
> cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
> the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
> creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.
>
> There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
> road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
> other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
> 70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
> relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
> once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
> offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
> prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.
>
> My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
> consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
> I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
> accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
> Regards,
> Ed Hawkins


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Bill Darnaby
 

I have done several of the Sunshine alt-std conversions and it works very well. The overlay casting is quite thin and lays done nicely after filing and scraping the original side detail off. Although it is intended for the Atlas car I have also used it for the Athearn car to get different end configurations. It's only drawback is that once you go through the trouble of the new sides, you feel compelled to replace the cast on grabs, install the slope sheet braces (included) and brake lever (also included). That is where the real work is.

Bill Darnaby

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper


Sunshine actually made a mini-kit for the alt std car. You are
supposed to file the sides of the Atlas (or Athearn?) car smooth
(no detail of any kind including gussets) and then you apply a
thin resin overlay on the side. I haven't tried it yet so I do
not know how successful it will be.

Tim O'Connor


Re: NJI&I 4100-4270 boxcars running board type

leakinmywaders
 

Thank you, Tim.

--Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Chris, sets E-2 and E-3 each have the flag etc that you want.
Each set has NJI&I reporting marks for only one car, as does
the E-1 set.

Tim O'Connor

94601 - 94620 of 181087