Date   

Re: WAG XM-1 box cars?

Eric Hansmann
 

Possibly because F&C has one available?
http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/6002.html

Eric


Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Starting over in a new house:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Are the WA&G cars also XM-1's? Why didn't Martin do lettering for
these cars? Were they modified so much it would have required a new
kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;item=130342818897

Tim O'Connor


Re: WAG XM-1 box cars?

Bob Jones <bobjonesmodels@...>
 

Hi , The WAG cars were used B&M cars bought in the '50's . We did one of the versions for a convention car in O scale , seems that basic repair and paint were all they got . Sylvan did the cars for us , one piece body , excellent job , still have a few left if you are interested , WAG or B&M with decals by Jim Wilhite and Greg Komar . Bob Jones , Ct.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/18/2009 10:19:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] WAG XM-1 box cars?



Are the WA&G cars also XM-1's? Why didn't Martin do lettering for
these cars? Were they modified so much it would have required a new
kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;item=130342818897

Tim O'Connor




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Armand Premo
 

How about Sherman Hill? <G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 12:30 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin



Mark Pierce wrote:
> What is a DT&I hopper doing in Tracy in Oct. 1948?
>
> http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html

From the look of the springs and bolster, it's empty. Hoppers
did get around, but rarely to California from eastern roads. My own
favorite example is the Reading twin photographed, empty, in Los
Angeles a few years later. But I'm still not going to model it--or the
DT&I car either.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Re: DT&I hopper in Tracy CA (was Re: Accurail Offset Twin)

Tim O'Connor
 

Mark

Simple: Coal sometimes travels long distances for some particular
industrial use (IOW not so much for heating or steam production).
Since DT&I served Michigan & Ohio (AAR District #15) a DT&I car on
ANY railroad in MI, OH or IN (which comprise District #15) could be
loaded for ANY destination in North America without regard to its
ownership by the DT&I, once the rules about loading a car off its
home road were observed (i.e. basically no more suitable equivalent
car was immediately available). Since the most suitable car in this
case would have been an SP (T&NO) hopper, it's reasonable to think
that the chances of an SP hopper in Ohio were no better than the
chances of a DT&I hopper in California... So the roll of the dice
gave us the DT&I hopper in Tracy on this occasion. (And on another
occasion someone photographed T&NO #4406 on the Nickel Plate...)

Tim O'Connor

What is a DT&I hopper doing in Tracy in Oct. 1948?
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html
Mark Pierce


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Rob & Bev Manley
 

Tim,
I used an Atlas car and it is very sucessful.
Sincerely,
Rob Manley

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:50 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



Andy

The quickest spotting feature is the 'gusset' ribs along the
top chord. The AAR standard cars use a simple L shaped angle,
while the alt standard cars use a hat section rib. And as you
point out, the reinforced vertical rivet seams are the other
major spotting feature.

Sunshine actually made a mini-kit for the alt std car. You are
supposed to file the sides of the Atlas (or Athearn?) car smooth
(no detail of any kind including gussets) and then you apply a
thin resin overlay on the side. I haven't tried it yet so I do
not know how successful it will be.

Tim O'Connor

>Schuyler,
>
>The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line. Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.
>
>regards,
>
>Andy Miller
>
>----- Original Message -----
> From: Schuyler Larrabee
> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:32 PM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper
>
>
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg
>
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg
>
> OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
> talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
> 50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
> model done new.
>
> Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
> models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
> (OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:
>
> http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm
>
> SGL
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
> > To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:
> >
> > > Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
> > > various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
> > > appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
> > > me?
> > >
> >
> > Dave,
> > When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
> > of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
> > is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
> > 1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
> > corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
> > from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
> > bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
> > bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
> > could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
> > were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.
> >
> > The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
> > Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
> > version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
> > sill of the early version.
> >
> > Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
> > nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
> > arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
> > practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
> > specialty items.
> >
> > Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
> > to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
> > end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
> > Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
> > ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
> > the complexity and cost of tooling.
> >
> > It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
> > for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
> > represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
> > vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
> > Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
> > cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
> > the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
> > creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.
> >
> > There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
> > road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
> > other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
> > 70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
> > relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
> > once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
> > offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
> > prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.
> >
> > My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
> > consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
> > I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
> > accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
> > Regards,
> > Ed Hawkins


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

lnnrr <lnnrr@...>
 

I would also point out that the Athearn offset twin has always seemed
flawed to me. It seems about a foot too wide. The flat end version
hasn't been available as undec or L&N for ages it seems, then the
heap shield version has one tapered end and one notch end.
When I look at photos of L&N cars, every notch end car is notched
both ends. Every taper end car is tapered both ends. Never found
one with the Athearn version, one of each.
I really NEED more offset hoppers. OK, maybe need is too strong a
word. Want.
Does anyone offer add-on heap shields? To put on flat end cars?
Come on Dennis, number 7712 by Christmas? Please Santa?
Chuck Peck

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

Answering a little for Dennis, Athearn blue box kits have been discontinued.
And Accurail kits have always been a step up from Athearn and more accurate.
They may not be craftsman kits but with just a little work can be darn good
looking.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. <
rdgbuff56@...> wrote:



Dennis,
I have a question. Is it worth the chance and expense to put another car on
the market that has been done more than a couple of times before. It is
already known that some shortcuts (leeway) have been taken to put this in
production. Can you really make enough to have money to invest in future
products? The Athearn car is fairly inexpensive and readily works for
modelers who operate. If you need a well detailed car that might be
different. I would think most modelers are looking for something new, not a
rehash.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.

________________________________
From: soolinehistory <destorzek@... <destorzek%40mchsi.com>>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 5:33:42 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurail Offset Twin

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, Bill Welch <fgexbill@ .> wrote:

Dennis, does Accurail intend to offer this with heap shields?

Bill Welch
Bill,

Not at the present. The tooling was originally designed so it could be done
with changeable inserts, until we realized that that would leave an
objectionable "witness line" across what is supposed to be a flat continuous
sheet. Since few of the triples had heap shields, we decided not to do it..
When designing the twin, I see from Ed's roster that almost all the cars
with heap shields are the AAR Alt. design, with the exception of L&N. Since
these paint schemes are stand-ins at best anyway, we again decided not to
worry about it. I can't say that we'll never do it, especially if someone
wanted to commission a large custom run, but I don't see that happening. It
will take new end inserts.

Dennis Storzek
Accurail, Inc.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mark Pierce wrote:
What is a DT&I hopper doing in Tracy in Oct. 1948?

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html
From the look of the springs and bolster, it's empty. Hoppers did get around, but rarely to California from eastern roads. My own favorite example is the Reading twin photographed, empty, in Los Angeles a few years later. But I'm still not going to model it--or the DT&I car either.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

rdgbuff56
 

I believe it might have been Stafford Swain who had an article how to modify the side sill on similar Canadian triple hoppers. A little work, a lot cheaper with an already produced car. In other words, rehash.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.


________________________________
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:32:50 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper


http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/el/frt/ dlw82243adb. jpg

http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/el/frt/ erie24000bdb. jpg

http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/el/frt/ erie25500adb. jpg

http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/el/frt/ erie26729adb. jpg

http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/el/frt/ erie27708adb. jpg

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper




On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:

Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
me?
Dave,
When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.

The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
sill of the early version.

Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
specialty items.

Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
Further variations include ends having extensions (i..e., peaked
ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
the complexity and cost of tooling.

It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.

There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.

My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Mark #2 <marcoperforar@...>
 

What is a DT&I hopper doing in Tracy in Oct. 1948?

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html

Mark Pierce

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I was just looking at the Athearn web site, at their retooled MDC 3-
bay offset car. While the Accurail model is more accurate for the
T&NO (Southern Pacific) cars, I note that the Athearn RTR car comes
with all wire grab irons installed, slope sheet supports, and the
correct National Type B trucks -- for $4 more than an Accurail kit
that comes with plastic wheelsets.
Wish I could use a T&NO triple myself, but in my modeled era,
they were still stuck in Texas. A shame.

Tony Thompson


Rio Grande Models - was Gold Medal Models HO buffer plate

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks Bill - must have been tired when I posted it: the vendor is Rio Grande Models - here's a link <http://www.riograndemodels.com/HO.htm>; - both parts are under HO detail parts, about 2/3 rds down the page.

Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bill Welch" <fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:01 PM
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Gold Medal Models HO buffer plate

Rob

I could not find this item on the GMM website or a part number
similar to it

Bill Welch


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Andy

The quickest spotting feature is the 'gusset' ribs along the
top chord. The AAR standard cars use a simple L shaped angle,
while the alt standard cars use a hat section rib. And as you
point out, the reinforced vertical rivet seams are the other
major spotting feature.

Sunshine actually made a mini-kit for the alt std car. You are
supposed to file the sides of the Atlas (or Athearn?) car smooth
(no detail of any kind including gussets) and then you apply a
thin resin overlay on the side. I haven't tried it yet so I do
not know how successful it will be.

Tim O'Connor

Schuyler,

The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line. Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:
>
> > Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
> > various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
> > appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
> > me?
> >
>
> Dave,
> When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
> of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
> is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
> 1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
> corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
> from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
> bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
> bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
> could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
> were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.
>
> The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
> Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
> version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
> sill of the early version.
>
> Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
> nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
> arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
> practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
> specialty items.
>
> Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
> to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
> end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
> Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
> ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
> the complexity and cost of tooling.
>
> It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
> for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
> represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
> vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
> Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
> cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
> the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
> creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.
>
> There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
> road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
> other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
> 70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
> relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
> once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
> offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
> prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.
>
> My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
> consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
> I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
> accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
> Regards,
> Ed Hawkins


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Miller wrote:
The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line. Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.
So is this a job for Archer rivets? <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

Schuyler,

The most noticable difference (to me) between the Erie cars and the Accurail is the double row of rivits with a reenforcing plate on the end and center ribs on the Erie cars. The Accurail cars show only a single rivit line. Admittedly ony an artists rendition of the car. But I beleive this is one of the differences between the AAR std and the AAR alternate design.

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper



http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL

> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:
>
> > Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
> > various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
> > appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
> > me?
> >
>
> Dave,
> When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
> of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
> is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
> 1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
> corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
> from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
> bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
> bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
> could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
> were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.
>
> The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
> Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
> version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
> sill of the early version.
>
> Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
> nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
> arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
> practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
> specialty items.
>
> Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
> to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
> end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
> Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
> ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
> the complexity and cost of tooling.
>
> It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
> for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
> represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
> vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
> Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
> cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
> the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
> creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.
>
> There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
> road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
> other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
> 70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
> relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
> once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
> offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
> prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.
>
> My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
> consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
> I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
> accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
> Regards,
> Ed Hawkins
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Database version: 6.13730
> http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
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WAG XM-1 box cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Are the WA&G cars also XM-1's? Why didn't Martin do lettering for
these cars? Were they modified so much it would have required a new
kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&;item=130342818897

Tim O'Connor


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I see the error, after focusing on the side sill.

Thanks, Tim, for pointing that out. But I can tell you that there are people waiting for an
Alternate Standard with the sloping side sills.

SGL

Schuyler those are all photos of alternate standard design
hoppers. None of the 4 plastic models (including Accurail's)
represents your Erie cars.

I don't think anyone has been waiting for a new AAR standard
twin..

Tim O'Connor

At 11/18/2009 09:32 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg>;
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg>;
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg>;
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg>;
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg
<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg>;

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for
these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm <http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm>;

SGL







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Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Schuyler those are all photos of alternate standard design
hoppers. None of the 4 plastic models (including Accurail's)
represents your Erie cars.

I don't think anyone has been waiting for a new AAR standard
twin..

Tim O'Connor

At 11/18/2009 09:32 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL


Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper

Schuyler Larrabee
 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/dlw82243adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie24000bdb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie25500adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie26729adb.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie27708adb.jpg

OK, so my bias shows in these selections. But this is the shape of the side sills that Ed is
talking about here. I am looking forward to this kit, though Ed's comments about the reuse of the
50-ton end is disappointing. If Accurail is going to do a new model, I'd like to see the ENTIRE
model done new.

Modelers of at least most if not all the roads listed on Accurail's page have been waiting for these
models for a long time. And since I had some trouble figuring out what people were talking about
(OK, I'm dense at times . . .), this is their page:

http://www.accurail.com/accurail/7700.htm

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Hawkins
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:29 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: New Accurail Offset twin hopper




On Nov 17, 2009, at 10:14 PM, devansprr wrote:

Outside of the taper, and the number of ribs, it seems like the
various prototype cars had few spotting differences outside of safety
appliances? (and the obvious peak vs flat ends) Can someone educate
me?
Dave,
When looking at the various 50-ton AAR hopper cars that were built, one
of the key features I look at to distinguish one version from another
is the shape of the side sills. The earliest version (used from 1934 to
1949) had side sills that angled upward from the bolsters to the
corners and were straight between the bolsters. A later version (used
from 1940-1960) had side sills that were level with the track from the
bolsters to the corners and had a shallow fish-belly between the
bolsters. Note there's a 10-year overlap from 1940-1949 where new cars
could have either version. By the way, the same side sill variations
were present on 70-ton AAR offset-side hoppers.

The Atlas model has side sills representing the early version while the
Athearn and Kadee models have side sills representing the later
version. The image of the model on the Accurail web site shows a side
sill of the early version.

Then, of course, there are the differences in how the side sheets
nearest the ends were formed as well as a variety of different end
arrangements. The combinations of all of these variations are
practically endless, not to mention other more subtle differences and
specialty items.

Some ends with flat tops used angles extending from the top of the end
to the end sills, others used channels extending from the bottom of the
end sheets to the end sills, and some used closely spaced Z-sections.
Further variations include ends having extensions (i.e., peaked
ends/heap shields) of various shapes. All of these combinations add to
the complexity and cost of tooling.

It's my understanding that Accurail is using the same end configuration
for their 50-ton model as they used on their 70-ton model. It
represents (poorly in my opinion) an end arrangement having Z-section
vertical supports that are closely spaced near the middle. The
Z-sections on the model aren't Z-sections, and instead are rectangular
cross sections, because otherwise the body could not be ejected from
the mold. Unfortunately, combining this end with the side arrangement
creates a very rare prototype 50-ton AAR hopper car.

There are other end arrangements that would be a better choice for more
road names. It comes down to the tooling cost involved with making
other variants. Since Accurail already had the end tooled from their
70-ton model, they chose economy by reusing the end despite the
relative rarity of the car that will be offered. Depending on sales
once the models are released, perhaps Accurail might be open to
offering other end variations that were more commonly found on
prototype 50-ton AAR Standard hopper cars.

My intent is NOT to hurt Accurail sales, but rather to help educate
consumers in making an informed decision on what they buy. To that end
I will be happy to assist any manufacturer interested in producing
accurate models of AAR hopper cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins










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Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I was just looking at the Athearn web site, at their retooled MDC 3- bay offset car. While the Accurail model is more accurate for the T&NO (Southern Pacific) cars, I note that the Athearn RTR car comes with all wire grab irons installed, slope sheet supports, and the correct National Type B trucks -- for $4 more than an Accurail kit that comes with plastic wheelsets.
Wish I could use a T&NO triple myself, but in my modeled era, they were still stuck in Texas. A shame.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Tim O'Connor
 

I was just looking at the Athearn web site, at their retooled MDC
3-bay offset car. While the Accurail model is more accurate for the
T&NO (Southern Pacific) cars, I note that the Athearn RTR car comes
with all wire grab irons installed, slope sheet supports, and the
correct National Type B trucks -- for $4 more than an Accurail kit
that comes with plastic wheelsets.

Athearn has not upgraded its 2-bay offset car yet but they could
easily do so -- and that might just wipe out sales of competitive
products, based on their looks alone.

In fact, that may be the strategy of killing off the blue box kits.
Athearn can now upgrade the old Athearn kits (greatly increasing
the difficulty of building them) and pay for it by selling them as
RTR models only.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/18/2009 06:33 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Answering a little for Dennis, Athearn blue box kits have been discontinued.
And Accurail kits have always been a step up from Athearn and more accurate.
They may not be craftsman kits but with just a little work can be darn good
looking.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com


Re: Accurail Offset Twin

Tim O'Connor
 

It's a good question Francis. When Accurail did the 3-bay offset, my club
was ready to buy a couple hundred such cars. But for the 2-bay, we already
have acquired 300 or so Athearn cars. One wonders how many clubs & modelers
out there who want a fleet of 2-bay offset hoppers haven't already gotten
theirs from Athearn or Atlas. The AAR alternate standard car could spark
wholesale replacement by C&O, ERIE, NP and other modelers... but this one?
I like the design of the Accurail model but it's another AAR standard car.
And an unusual combination of features at that...

Tim O'Connor

Dennis,
I have a question. Is it worth the chance and expense to put another car on the market that has been done more than a couple of times before. It is already known that some shortcuts (leeway) have been taken to put this in production. Can you really make enough to have money to invest in future products? The Athearn car is fairly inexpensive and readily works for modelers who operate. If you need a well detailed car that might be different. I would think most modelers are looking for something new, not a rehash.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.

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