Date   
Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

rwitt_2000
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
snip

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way
they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the
middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the
remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them
fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better
than having a half board in the middle of the car.

Bruce,

You raise an interesting point and question "How did car builders place
the decking on flat cars?" Did they start from the ends as you do or
from the middle. I have no idea. To save costs, I would suggest that on
actual flat cars there would be an odd width board or two and that would
be prototypical. There also is the type of flatcar design where the top
of the body bolsters are flush with the decking so these cars have
smaller openings to fit the decking into creating the potential for even
more odd width boards.

Bob Witt

ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

As I noted in my message of August 18, we have just about drained the useful
information out of the frt car distribution thread. I also asked in that
thread for opinions regarding the acceptable "error" in the predicting
capability of what I refer to as the Nelson/Gilbert theory. The point has
always been, to me, that, while the theory is logically interesting, how
does it perform?

Walter Clark writes:

"Tim's and Dave's analysis was only on a few trains on a couple of
lines (UP and Southern, if I read everything correctly), but the
analysis yields results that are more accurate the more
trains/lines/months/years you check."

Well, I don't have the data from the Southern train but I do have Tim's results from his 1947 UP data and, of course, I have the 1949 UP data...which I copied to Tim and he analyzed. The theory worked fairly well with the 1947 data...777 box cars...but the 1949 data...almost twice the size...1325 box cars...in Tim's words "blew it all to hell".

"What I (and I think Tim and
Dave)am saying is that once you get a large enough sample size (and
the point I was trying to make using the poker chips, surveys and
birthdays is that the necessary sample size is a lot smaller and need
not be nearly as wide-spread as most people think) you can make quite
accurate projections for a much larger universe."

That's fine. I would have no problems with the theory IF it were "proven". IOW, suppose we had data from say 30 RRs, each of about 35 trains. If the analyzer studied the data and noticed that the % of foreign box cars on a given RR matched the national % of the foreign box cars for these 1050 trains, I would think we had a good theory. I would think it would predict the number of foreign box cars on a given RR for a much longer period of time...say a yr. If we only had the data from 2 RRs to work from I would conclude that we MIGHT have a good theory. If, however, we had the data from 3 RRs to work from and the data from the largest did NOT support the theory, I would try to alter the theory to match the data or accept the theory at great risk. Unfortunately, this is the case when one applies the theory to the 1949 UP data. IMO. If what I am saying is incorrect, please let me know.

The thread will remain open for replies. I would also remind the members that this is a discussion within the scope of the group. It should also be conducted within the rules of the group...meaning in a civil manner.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

Re: Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

NicholasF
 

Drawings start in 1926 for hopper cars, flat cars and gondolas, we
have one 1955 conceptual drawing for an M-55 boxcar.

Tale Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large BORRHS
http://www.borhs.org


--- In STMFC@..., Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger
<durrecj@...> wrote:

Could you please tell us the exact time period these cover.

Cyril Durrenberger

nfryumbc <borhsarchives@...> wrote:
The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce
that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org







duck out of water on the RDG

ed_mines
 

Yesterday I saw a RDG retrospective on "Trains and Locomotives" on RFD-
TV.

The first segment was all steam (both B&W and color)including a
camelback.

There was a MILW 2 bay offset hopper in a string of RDG hoppers
followed by a steam pusher (my guess is that this could be no later
than the mid 1950s).

Ed

Re: Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Could you please tell us the exact time period these cover.

Cyril Durrenberger

nfryumbc <borhsarchives@...> wrote:
The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org

Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

NicholasF
 

The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org

2009 Pittsburgh RPM

golden1014
 

Hey Guys,
 
Does anybody know the dates for Larry Kline's RPM Meet over in Pittsburgh in 2009?  I hear there will be some steam freight car (required content) models there.
 
Thanks,
John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:19 PM, Rob & Bev Manley wrote:

Jason,
I am building a Westrail A.A.R. Fifty Ton, 53'6" flatcar resin kit. The deck was originally scribed styrene. I decided that since I wasn't going to build the scale underframe, I will use Kappler lumber for a board by board deck. The kit's fact sheet says the boards were 2 3/8" x 7 3/4" planks and were creosoted.
Rob,

On the subject of creosoted lumber for flat car decks. We've learned here previously some railroads did precisely that (e.g. AT&SF), and that others (e.g. PRR) did not (Pennsy used oak, which was considered a "junk" hardwood at the time). It may have been related to the availability of different types of lumber in different locations, or to differing cost-benefit analysis. I have no idea which the NP used, although I modeled my Northern Specific car with an uncreosoted deck.

In addition, in looking at the specs for the PRR's F30A flat cars, the lumber width varied between about 6" and 9".

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better than having a half board in the middle of the car.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: Freight car distribution

al.kresse
 

Is there some way to limit this subject to say no more than say 5 e-mails per day? . . . . unless there is NEW real data to share? . . . . or is there some way to make this a sub-group that one has an option to receive?

Al Kresse

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Magnetic airhoses

Manfred Lorenz
 

All,

Many components get close to scale dimensions. Why not the airhose as
has been mentioned before. To make a scale gladhand I need the
dimensions of it better a measured drawing. Is there any available?

Manfred

Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

Knowing the UP, this probably happened more than a few times...

Huh? I guess I'll have to ask for an explaination. Certainly the destination
for eastbound car PFE 6439 with a load of wine destined for Omaha would...I
hope...not be sent to Portland from Green River.
Mike Brock

Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Ed Schleyer
 

Jason & Rob

I'm working from original PRR drawings that show the planking to be Tongue & Groove 2 3/8" x 5 1/4". I guess we are used to lumber yard sizes and not Mill sizes.
Ed Schleyer

Rob & Bev Manley wrote:


Jason,
I am building a Westrail A.A.R. Fifty Ton, 53'6" flatcar resin kit. The deck was originally scribed styrene. I decided that since I wasn't going to build the scale underframe, I will use Kappler lumber for a board by board deck. The kit's fact sheet says the boards were 2 3/8" x 7 3/4" planks and were creosoted. If you can find one of these kits hiding at your LHS, I highly recommend one. The resin is the easy to work light gray material and the stake pockets are brass castings of the highest quality. I made it with the lead strip weights tucked between the underframe components to give it a lower center of gravity. I like to run some of my flats without a load. I originally bought it with the intention to model a CB&Q car. I was told there was a slight difference between the NP and Q car. It will paint it NP as it was originally intended. I am long overdue for some corrrect GN & NP cars in my trains.

Rob Manley
Midwest-Mod-U-Trak
MM2
BRHS

From: parkcitybranch
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

I am building a wood deck for my CB&Q 52' flat and the original brass
deck measures out to a 2x6 which seems small. What size planking
should I be using? Thanks.

Jason Sanford


Re: NdeM photo in Mike Pearsall's "The Northerms".

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Steve,

Those cars obviously got there, but did they ever get home? Mexican railroads were (and still are) notorious for capturing U.S. cars. I've heard that even today when they come back north, the cars are often in deplorable condition and sometimes even stripped of their brake systems.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Steve Lucas wrote:

An undated Victor Hand colour photo on page 2 of this book (which I picked up today) shows the following boxcars behind the tender of NdeM Niagra 3041 somewhere in Mexico---(all are steel 10' i.h. except where noted)

CPR 40', CB&Q 40' 10'-6" i.h., Wabash 40', Frisco 40' steel frame 8'-6" i.h., T&P 40', D&H PS-1 10'-6" i.h., NYC as the first seven cars. More steel cars behind, roads hard to discern in photo.

Not to provoke anyone or anything, but this shows just how far some roads' cars got.

Steve Lucas.


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Freight car distribution UP > Wabash

Aley, Jeff A
 

Allen,

Great data! Do you know if the UP -> Wabash traffic in KC was primarily PFE reefers? Or was it a lot of general merchandise?

Also, is it correct to assume that the Wabash received cars someplace near their freight house in the KC West Bottoms?

Thanks much,

-Jeff


________________________________
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Allen Rueter
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:27 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution UP > Wabash


A data point, the Wabash didn't get much from the UP in Council Bluffs (4100+ cars in '47),
but they did get 38500+ in KC.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

Re: Freight car distribution

Walter M. Clark
 

Mike Brock wrote:

Walter M. Clark writes:

"What we have is the problem that always occurs when using statistics.
Most people won't accept that a relatively small sample size can
forecast much larger populations with extreme accuracy. Just listen
to the arguments after a national poll is released, where they polled
only a few thousand people and used that data to project within just a
few percentage points of error what the entire Nation's population
thinks."

Well...it all depends upon the selection of data process. IOW, do you
believe that if you chose your entire sample from either of the
attendees at
one of the political conventions that you would get usable results?

"Tim's and Dave's analysis is for an entire year."

It is? That's news to me...although you may be correct. I've been
asking
about that. Tim's 1947 Fraley, however, contains the UP trains from
only
about a month...mine, which he says blew his theory to "hell" covers
a month
and a half.

"I had a professor in Graduate School who, in the Statistics class,
always brought a cloth drawstring bag with 100 red and 100 black poker
chips to class. No matter what he was teaching, and no matter how big
or how small the numbers he was working with, a handful of chips from
that bag was ALWAYS extremely close to what the calculations said."

Ah. Reminds me of my first encounter with a crap table in Vegas. The
Showboat Casino out on Henderson Hy...1964. While I knew 2 weeks
later that
the dice have no memory [ at least they weren't sposed to ]...I
noticed some
guy making quite a successful run. Soon I was betting against him.
Soon I
was broke. I have no idea how many passes the guy made...27 or so was
supposed to be the known record...but he came close to breaking it.
Had I
come to Vegas 2 weeks earlier I would not afterward have to work for
33 yrs
for NASA. Incidentally, I sat through a similar statistics meeting.
In this
case, it was a Lockheed presentation in which the presenter claimed
that
their software was 85% successful. My division chief [ he spoke with a
German ascent for some reason...one of his friends had a problem
that when
he got excited his right arm flew up as if he was pointing toward a
distant
mountain ] noted that we didn't really think 85% was very good and that
success was a 0 or 1. Sorta like trying to drive from Kennedy Space
Center
to St. Louis only to have your car explode while crossing the Tennessee
River in Cairo, IL. 85% success?

Mike Brock
Mike,

Tim's and Dave's analysis was only on a few trains on a couple of
lines (UP and Southern, if I read everything correctly), but the
analysis yields results that are more accurate the more
trains/lines/months/years you check. What I (and I think Tim and
Dave)am saying is that once you get a large enough sample size (and
the point I was trying to make using the poker chips, surveys and
birthdays is that the necessary sample size is a lot smaller and need
not be nearly as wide-spread as most people think) you can make quite
accurate projections for a much larger universe. Yes, the surveys use
a carefully chosen sample, but it wouldn't take too much larger for a
much less carefully chosen sample set to be just as accurate. The
reason they use a small sample is to save costs.

So my comment that the analysis is for an entire year was rather
poorly stated. What I meant to say is that a small sample (what, 45
trains?) from a relatively short period of time (a month and a bit)
yields results that are the most accurate for the longer rather than
shorter period of time. So a sample of 45 trains/1,000 cars/one+
month is somewhat valid for a six month time frame, more valid for a
year and even more valid the longer you look. THAT, the longer period
of time, is when the expected distribution of box cars most closely
matches the national distribution.

As for the branch line -- no, it isn't as accurate, unless that branch
line has a variety of receivers/shippers that somewhat closely matches
the nation.

And that is why I'll stick with the analysis by Tim and Dave, and try
to build my collection of box cars to match.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA

Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Rob & Bev Manley
 

Jason,
I am building a Westrail A.A.R. Fifty Ton, 53'6" flatcar resin kit. The deck was originally scribed styrene. I decided that since I wasn't going to build the scale underframe, I will use Kappler lumber for a board by board deck. The kit's fact sheet says the boards were 2 3/8" x 7 3/4" planks and were creosoted. If you can find one of these kits hiding at your LHS, I highly recommend one. The resin is the easy to work light gray material and the stake pockets are brass castings of the highest quality. I made it with the lead strip weights tucked between the underframe components to give it a lower center of gravity. I like to run some of my flats without a load. I originally bought it with the intention to model a CB&Q car. I was told there was a slight difference between the NP and Q car. It will paint it NP as it was originally intended. I am long overdue for some corrrect GN & NP cars in my trains.

Rob Manley
Midwest-Mod-U-Trak
MM2
BRHS





From: parkcitybranch
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small


I am building a wood deck for my CB&Q 52' flat and the original brass
deck measures out to a 2x6 which seems small. What size planking
should I be using? Thanks.

Jason Sanford

Re: Freight car distribution

feddersenmark
 

Somebody notify me when this exercise is over...until then, I'm
checking out! Mark F.




--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

Malcolm,

For fleet selection, the idea of adding a "weight" to the percentage
of each railroad's fleet is appealing to me. This encompasses the
idea of "home road", and "close affiliates". For the home road the
weight factor might be 3x or 5x, direct connections might be 2x,
with more distant lines 1.5x to .75x -- just as examples! Also, as
I noted yesterday, if your physical fleet ..........................
============

D'accord !

I lke what you said. Off line to you to clutter the lsit with
more traffic.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: freight car distribution - rejecting the equal distribution hypo

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote: Cyril, I like your approach, but two comment/questions.

3. If we can show that in 1910 the non home box cars are distributed by national roster
Has anyone ever done this ? BC of course.

Not that I am aware of. I would to do this if I could obtain appropriate data.

25% from the national fleet based roughly on the percentage of their car fleet. The split of model SP Lines box, flat and gondola cars was based on the percentage of each type of car on the roster at that time and the road names.
Does it really make sense to you that any one SP&S or DSS&A or BAR or FEC car would be as likelto get to your railroad as a car from T&NO or IGN or any other railroad that got near Houston ?

Maybe I did not make this clear. For box cars
50% to the SP Lines including a little more for the HE&WT. One could see SP Atlantic Lines cars all over the SP. For example, I have a photo of a HE&WT flat hauling logs on the Pacific Coast. Some ML&T flat cars were fitted with sugar beet racks to serve areas in California.
25% to lines connecting with the HE&WT. That would be all the railroads in Houston and Shreveport and some in between. I&GN, T&BV, MKT of Texas (MKT also), SA&AP, GC&SF (Santa Fe also), VS&P, LR&N off the top of my head (my records are back in Texas)
25% to lines not connecting with the HE&WT somewhat based on the size of their car fleet. So the PRR and NYC would likely be the largest etc.
So there will always be some T&NO cars around (even though at that time the T&NO did not have as many cars as many of the other Atlantic Lines, but that is another story) and the others you mentioned may not ever show up. I am not sure if the FEC had been built at that time. I am not sure how big a fleet SP&S had at that time. I do have a DSS&A box car that shows up every now and then(bringing snow sleds down south - another inside joke that I will not tell now).
Hope that makes things more clear.
Cyril






Cyril Durrenberger

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Malcolm,

For fleet selection, the idea of adding a "weight" to the percentage
of each railroad's fleet is appealing to me. This encompasses the
idea of "home road", and "close affiliates". For the home road the
weight factor might be 3x or 5x, direct connections might be 2x,
with more distant lines 1.5x to .75x -- just as examples! Also, as
I noted yesterday, if your physical fleet ..........................
============

D'accord !

I lke what you said. Off line to you to clutter the lsit with more traffic.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "wmcclark1980" What we have is the problem that always occurs when using statistics.
Most people won't accept that a relatively small sample size can
forecast much larger populations with extreme accuracy.
===========

That's not what the discussion is about Walter. For that theory to work you need a population that is homogenous with respect to some variable. With railrad box cars, we are working with lumpy distributions with varying degrees of skewness and nothing near a normal or poisson or other kind of distributionfor which we know how to calculate statistical significance.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478