Date   
Re: freight car distribution - rejecting the equal distribution hypothesis.

Stokes John
 

I agree with Malcolm. The very notion that box cars were distributed on all railroads across the country in proportion to ownership is patently absurd on its face. As has been noted before, and mentioned here in some respects, there were just too many variables and oddities and contingencies, etc. for such a hypotheses to work in reality. All one has to do is look at some photos of rail yards and freight trains from a good sample of the US and one would instantly recognize the randomness, and sometimes predictable, patterns of box car distribution across the country. The reason people get so excited about seeing a BAR red white and blue box car in Dallas, Texas is because it is a rarity, just as a WP car in Boston would be a wonder to behold. The Granger railroads kept a high percentage of their fleets on their home irons, and especially the CB&Q. I lived in Lubbock, Texas for four years while in school many years ago, when the single sheathed box cars were predominant on the Q and about all you would see on the High Plains of the Panhandle at that time were these great SS box cars. Out here in the PNW during the BN days one could see long freight trains with almost nothing but BN cars, along with some still un re-painted NP and GN cars, with a smattering of other roads, even some strays form the SouthEast at times.


Proportional distribution across all railroads on some mathematical formula and theory is just an exercise in lahlah land. Fun, interesting, and helpful in a tiny degree as previously noted, but not applicable or transferable to model railroad situations (aside from the virtual railroads, where anything is possible).
John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@...: mlaughlinnyc@...: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:06:46 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: freight car distribution - rejecting the equal distribution hypothesis.




It has been stated that the burden of proof is on me that box cars were not distributed on all railroads in proportion to ownership. The burden of proof notion is not applicable here because it is not possible to "prove" either side of the argument, which could be done only if car accounting records from the period were available. Absent any method of proof, we have to fall back on logic based on known practices and traffic flows at the time.Here are some variables that work against proportional distribution across all railroads.- Car service rules. While we know that car service rules were not always observed, we also know that many railroads did observe them most of the time. This greatly reduces the likelihood of an FEC car in Oregon or a WP car in Maine.- Length of haul. I believe that the average length of haul of a carload was in the area of 300 to 500 miles. This was for all car types and probably unknowable by specific type. Given our known bias, of undeterminable magnitude, toward loading in home road cars, the probability of seeing any mark on any railroad is biased downward by its distance from the owner.- Seasonal tides Ė the grain harvest for example. Nationwide there was a fixed fleet of cars usable for grain loading. The big Midwest harvest began in Oklahoma and nearby areas and over the course of a few months moved north to the Dakotas. The car fleet moved north also, quite inconsistent with the proportional distribution hypothesis. The AAR issued movement orders to get cars from the east to grain loading areas was another source of bias.- Surpluses and shortages. They varied widely by season, region and type of load. The largest 40 ft. narrow door box car shortage crises were in the best grain crop years. When the shortage was over, many cars went home to rest for a few months. A peak grain harvest in a time of business recession would really skew the distribution.- Suitability for loading. Some cars were more suited for paper loading, others for grain, BCK cars for flour, etc. Locations of large users of newsprint strongly biased the destination areas of cars with marks of the paper loading railroads. Railroads serving lumber producers a much higher proportion of cars dimensionally suitable for lumber. The multitude of such situations caused many pockets of ownership concentration.- Cars out of service. On the NYC we had thousands of XM box cars out of service awaiting rebuilding or rarely used because of obsolescence. The proportion of such cars varied widely among railroads. As a result the listings in the ORER was only approximately representative of the cars actually hauling freight.I could probably think of other factors given some time, but I think this is enough to say that the equal distribution hypothesis requires a huge leap of faith. Remember that it is a theory developed in a quest to answer a question that may not be answerable and uses data that is only indirectly related to the end result and purportedly validated by a very small sample. When statistical results vary widely from what our knowledge of the real world leads us to expect, we should first question the validity of the statistical method.BTW, that storage to shortage phenomenon is a reason that average loads per car per year gives us no useful information about turnaround time of cars actually in use. And it didn't mean that long tracks of stored cars. That surplus was distributed a day or two at a time over thousands of yards and stations - cars awaiting distribution for a day or two more than they would have in a time of shortage.

Re: Naperville 2008...

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

$92 according to the Naperville 2008 registration form.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jack
Burgess
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:37 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Naperville 2008...

Dates and hotel information have been posted for the Naperville meet this
year but the last post I saw (June) indicated that the hotel rate hadn't
been set yet. Does anyone know if the rate has been set now?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

That I wrote:

In 1949 it is slightly more than one day's trains.
"That seems odd to me, considering that the SP usually ran
more than 30 freights (60-100 cars) over Donner Pass on a
typical day, and most of that was going to or coming from
Ogden. And that doesn't include 4 or 6 daily trains going
to/from Oregon via the Modoc. The D&RGW got a little bit of
SP's traffic, but not much. At Sherman Hill the UP would
also have traffic from the LA&SL and OSL. And during the
peak perishable season, SP could move nearly 1,000 reefers
in a day over Donner."

From an earlier message of mine:

"Of course the Fraley book contains a realtively small sample of data.
During
the fall of 1948...6 months prior to the Fraley data...UP averaged about
26
frt trains per day through the Altamont Tunnel between Green River and
Evanston. This does not include the Granger cutoff traffic through
Montpelier which in 1956 averaged about 12 trains per day. One can
probably
be fairly safe in assuming about 35 frt trains per day..."

The Altamont data is in a UPHS The Streamliner article.

Mike Brock

2008 St. Louis RPM Meet Report - Correction to the Web Site

golden1014
 

All,
 
Sorry for the extra e-mail, but you may experience some trouble with the link to the photo page to work.  Try this one:
 
http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/2008_st_louis_rpm_meet&page=all
 
Thanks!
John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

--- On Mon, 8/18/08, John Golden <golden1014@...> wrote:

From: John Golden <golden1014@...>
Subject: [protomeets] 2008 St. Louis RPM Meet Report
To: acl-sal-sclmodeler@..., "B&O Modeler's List" <baltimore_and_ohio@...>, "CofG Modeler's List" <cofgmodeler@...>, "CRR Modeler's List" <crrlist@...>, "IC Modelers List" <illinois-central-model@...>, "M&StL List" <mstl@...>, "PCL" <passengercarlist@...>, "PRR Modeler'sList" <prr-modeling@...>, "RI Modeler's List" <crip-rr@...>, protomeets@..., rpm-forum@..., stmfc@..., "Virginian List" <virginianrailwayenthusiasts@...>
Cc: "Lonnie Bathurst" <bathurst@...>, bigfourtrains@..., "Denis Blake" <dblake7@...>, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>, "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@...>, "Mike Budde" <jmikebudde@...>, "Danny Carter" <dannycofg@...>, "Loren Casey" <loren.casey@...>, "Joe Collias" <user425711@...>, "Ted Culotta" <tculotta@...>, "Dave Davis" <Davisjctrpm@...>, "Chuck Dean" <charles.dean@...>, "Mike Dudley" <michael.dudley@...>, "Paul Fries" <rdhobbies@...>, "John Fuller" <jcfuller2000@...>, "Sharon Funaro" <fandc@...>, "Gene Fusco" <yardmaster@...>, "bdg1210" <bruce_griffin@...>, "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...>, "Andy Harmon" <andy@...>, "John Hitzeman" <rgspemkt@...>, "Tom Holley" <@TomHolley>, "Ben Hom" <b.hom@...>, "Todd Horton" <centga@...>, "David Jobe"
<tangerine_flyer@...>, "Dan Kohlberg" <paducah@...>, lawrence.thomas@..., "John Lee" <bnjohn@...>, "Dave Lotz" <@davelotz>, "Greg Martin" <tgregmrtn@...>, "Justin May" <jmay59@...>, "Bill McCoy" <wpmccoy@...>, "Jim Mischke" <jmischke@...>, "Mike Moore" <mmoore494@...>, "Frank Peacock" <frank3112@...>, "Clark Propst" <cepropst@...>, "ken rees" <krees@...>, "Andy Reichert" <andy_r@...>, "Gary Roe" <wabashrr@...>, "Mike Rose" <miker@...>, "Jim Six" <jamessix@...>, "Pete Smith" <smithpb@...>, "Bruce Smith" <@smithbf>, "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...>, "Mont Switzer" <zoe@...>, "Chris Thies" <chris_thies@...>, "Allen Tuten CofG HS" <allen@...>, "John Welther" <dieselsurgeon@...>, "Patrick Wider" <pwider@...>,
ted_andrews@..., mononinmonon@..., CHADBOAS@..., dbohannon2@..., adbyrne@..., thermalpiglet@..., ajc5150@..., nkpcldon@..., @daledewitt, Michael.Dudley@..., bobflores99@..., CGALFA@..., jon_habegger@..., fortyrounds@..., homanfamily@..., doughunt2014@..., mjarman1@..., alester@..., Brian.T.McQuitty@..., mec-bml@..., tandocrr@..., rastlr@..., Djrozick@..., railsunl@..., msherbak11@..., c9dash40@..., cnwprd@..., tpswan@..., ahtuten@..., MEV@..., ward@..., dillini1@..., rmwitt@..., atsf93@..., frankcpa2003@...
Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:07 PM





Gentlemen,
 
The 2008 St. Louis RPM Meet was held this past weekend (15 & 16 Aug, 2008) at the Gateway Convention Center in Collinsville, IL.   
 
The meet was a great success.  200 attendees enjoyed the meet, and brought a little over 1000 models for display. We provided 120+ door prizes, including locomotives from Athearn, Walthers/Proto 2000 and Intermountain.  We provided 65 tables for historical societies, hand-picked vendors, and over 38 tables for models brought by attendees for display.  We also had a nicely detailed, operating Freemo layout on display.
 
Clinics were provided by Ed Hawkins, Tony Sissons, Dan & John Kohlberg, Dave Roeder, Brian McQuitty, Mont Switzer, Chad Hewitt, Pete Smith, Stan Rydarowicz, Clark Propst and Mike Moore, and Frank Angstead of Intermountain. A pre-RPM tour of the Gateway rail Services facility in Madison, IL was also provided for attendees arriving early.
 
Photos from the 2008 St. Louis RPM Meet are available at http://www.pbase. com/golden1014/ 2008_st_louis_ rpm_meet& page=all.  If that link doesn't work, go to the PBase main site at http://www.pbase. com/ and type in Golden1014 and that'll take you to my photo home page.
 
Many thanks to our vendors that traveled far and wide to attend, and to all those who generously contributed to the huge stash of door prizes we gave away on Saturday afternoon.  And many thanks to everyone that attended--the meet was a big success thanks to you!

The 2009 St. Louis RPM Meet is scheduled at the same place, the Gateway Center, on 07 & 08 August, 2009. We hope to see you there!

Yours Very Truly,
Dan Kohlberg
Lonnie Bathurst
John Golden

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2008 St. Louis RPM Meet Report

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,
 
The 2008 St. Louis RPM Meet was held this past weekend (15 & 16 Aug, 2008) at the Gateway Convention Center in Collinsville, IL.   
 
The meet was a great success.  200 attendees enjoyed the meet, and brought a little over 1000 models for display. We provided 120+ door prizes, including locomotives from Athearn, Walthers/Proto 2000 and Intermountain.  We provided 65 tables for historical societies, hand-picked vendors, and over 38 tables for models brought by attendees for display.  We also had a nicely detailed, operating Freemo layout on display.
 
Clinics were provided by Ed Hawkins, Tony Sissons, Dan & John Kohlberg, Dave Roeder, Brian McQuitty, Mont Switzer, Chad Hewitt, Pete Smith, Stan Rydarowicz, Clark Propst and Mike Moore, and Frank Angstead of Intermountain. A pre-RPM tour of the Gateway rail Services facility in Madison, IL was also provided for attendees arriving early.
 
Photos from the 2008 St. Louis RPM Meet are available at http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/2008_st_louis_rpm_meet&page=all.  If that link doesn't work, go to the PBase main site at http://www.pbase.com/ and type in Golden1014 and that'll take you to my photo home page.
 
Many thanks to our vendors that traveled far and wide to attend, and to all those who generously contributed to the huge stash of door prizes we gave away on Saturday afternoon.  And many thanks to everyone that attended--the meet was a big success thanks to you!

The 2009 St. Louis RPM Meet is scheduled at the same place, the Gateway Center, on 07 & 08 August, 2009. We hope to see you there!

Yours Very Truly,
Dan Kohlberg
Lonnie Bathurst
John Golden

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: freight car distribution - rejecting the equal distribution hypothesis.

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

It has been stated that the burden of proof is on me that box cars
were not distributed on all railroads in proportion to ownership.
The burden of proof notion is not applicable here because it is not
possible to "prove" either side of the argument, which could be done
only if car accounting records from the period were available.
Absent any method of proof, we have to fall back on logic based on
known practices and traffic flows at the time.

Here are some variables that work against proportional distribution
across all railroads.

- Car service rules. While we know that car service rules were not
always observed, we also know that many railroads did observe them
most of the time. This greatly reduces the likelihood of an FEC car
in Oregon or a WP car in Maine.

- Length of haul. I believe that the average length of haul of a
carload was in the area of 300 to 500 miles. This was for all car
types and probably unknowable by specific type. Given our known
bias, of undeterminable magnitude, toward loading in home road cars,
the probability of seeing any mark on any railroad is biased downward
by its distance from the owner.

- Seasonal tides ‚Äď the grain harvest for example. Nationwide there
was a fixed fleet of cars usable for grain loading. The big Midwest
harvest began in Oklahoma and nearby areas and over the course of a
few months moved north to the Dakotas. The car fleet moved north
also, quite inconsistent with the proportional distribution
hypothesis. The AAR issued movement orders to get cars from the east
to grain loading areas was another source of bias.

- Surpluses and shortages. They varied widely by season, region and
type of load. The largest 40 ft. narrow door box car shortage crises
were in the best grain crop years. When the shortage was over, many
cars went home to rest for a few months. A peak grain harvest in a
time of business recession would really skew the distribution.

- Suitability for loading. Some cars were more suited for paper
loading, others for grain, BCK cars for flour, etc. Locations of
large users of newsprint strongly biased the destination areas of
cars with marks of the paper loading railroads. Railroads serving
lumber producers a much higher proportion of cars dimensionally
suitable for lumber. The multitude of such situations caused many
pockets of ownership concentration.

- Cars out of service. On the NYC we had thousands of XM box cars
out of service awaiting rebuilding or rarely used because of
obsolescence. The proportion of such cars varied widely among
railroads. As a result the listings in the ORER was only
approximately representative of the cars actually hauling freight.

I could probably think of other factors given some time, but I think
this is enough to say that the equal distribution hypothesis requires
a huge leap of faith. Remember that it is a theory developed in a
quest to answer a question that may not be answerable and uses data
that is only indirectly related to the end result and purportedly
validated by a very small sample. When statistical results vary
widely from what our knowledge of the real world leads us to expect,
we should first question the validity of the statistical method.

BTW, that storage to shortage phenomenon is a reason that average
loads per car per year gives us no useful information about
turnaround time of cars actually in use. And it didn't mean that
long tracks of stored cars. That surplus was distributed a day or
two at a time over thousands of yards and stations - cars awaiting
distribution for a day or two more than they would have in a time of
shortage.

Re: Freight car distribution

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor

The D&RGW got a little bit of SP's traffic, but not much.

Actualy the SP dumped a fair amount of lumber traffic on the D&RGW at Ogden.
I dunno the facts of the case but I suspect it was a lot of "rollers".

Dave Nelson

Re: Modern Data?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Has anyone heard of or tried to see if present-day mixed freights follow the same distributions as presumed for the steam era? There are no doubt differences today, but don't Car Service Rules 1, 2, and 3 still apply? Shouldn't there still be distributions based on ownership? If so, it sounds like there might be plenty of opportunities for field research.

KL

Re: Naperville 2008...

Jack Burgess
 

Dates and hotel information have been posted for the Naperville meet this
year but the last post I saw (June) indicated that the hotel rate hadn't
been set yet. Does anyone know if the rate has been set now?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Re: Freight car distribution

ed_mines
 

If I was taking pictures of freight cars I wouldn't take duplicates of
everday cars like PRR X29s, H21s...... I'd wait for uncommon cars, or
at least cars I didn't have negatives for.

This is sort of like a decal catalog. The common cars are under
represented and a couple of uncommon cars are present.

I'll bet Harrisburg never saw too many Canadian road hoppers.

Older cameras could hold just so much fim before they had to be
reloaded, which was difficult to do in the field. I recall Bob
Malonowski could only shoot a dozen photos on any given day.

I heard that old timers would bring along several cameras loaded with
film.

As for the cameras which used slide magazines, each photographer was
limited by the number of magazines he had.

Ed

Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

"I have a logical explanation."

Uh oh.

"Not every UP freight on Sherman
Hill served the same purpose."

Absolutely. This has been very clear to me since I analyzed my frt conductor's book. It is interesting to note that UP was apparently not classifying eastbound trains in Wyoming. The data shows cars bound for Laramie or Cheyenne to be placed randomly [?] in the train. Some eastbound trains appear to have significant blocks of cars grouped as they arrived from SP tracks at Ogden. Westbound trains, OTOH, appear more blocked which probably reflects the fact that North Platte was the major classification point on the UP east/west trunk line.

"Some were locals."

No. UP did not run local frt trains west of Cheyenne in Wyoming. They did run a train to/from the ballast mines at Buford and Granite but we have very strong data that shows that UP used through frt trains to load/unload frt at points on Sherman Hill.

"Some were headed
to the PNW."

Yes, about 15% went on the cutoff through Granger to Pocatello, ID.

"Some were headed to Denver, or Kansas."

Yes.

"And SOME were
blocked cars collected for return to the SP."

Referring to westbound trains.

"Does this seem odd
to you?"

Nope.

"There were just 3 other class 1's in California besides
the UP, and 1 of them was the most dominant railroad there --
the SP. Considering that the SP turned over 1,000 cars a day
over to the UP at Ogden, why does it seem unexpected to you that
the UP might want to expedite empty "return to owner" blocks at
times?"

Nope. Makes sense.

"The SP probably turned over all kinds of PRR and C&NW and
LS&I and SLSF and SAL cars at Ogden too, but LOGIC would say
that those would not be "returned when empty" to the SP."

Makes sense. OTOH, the trains with many more SP box cars present are eastbounds with loaded SP box cars.

"As I
said before, you keep beating this SP horse to death."

Well...the ol' nag won't die so I just keep swinging...

"SP was
essential to the Overland Route in your era -- it was basically
a joint operation. And to help you out, the connections at Omaha
were 7 -- C&NW/CMStP&O, MILW, CRI&P, CB&Q, CGW, WABASH, and IC."

You missed Mopac. I like the Mopac lettering. And Mopac hoppers found their way to Laramie [ oh...noooo ].

These 7 fought over the tidal wave of traffic the UP terminated
at Omaha/Council Bluffs -- and a good part of that wave was
coming from the SP. Does it seem odd to you that the UP would
have blocks of cars for its eastern connections?"

No. OTOH, I'm not seeing blocked eastbound cars in trains in Wuyoming. OK, here's a randomly picked [ Oh, nooo ] eastbound train. Cars are headed east in this order:

Gering, NE
Rock River, WY
Laramie
Chian [ Cheyenne ]
"
"
Laramie
Chian
Laramie
Omaha
Chian
Laramie
"
"
"
"
"
Gering, NE
Omaha
Denver
Laramie
"
Council Bluffs
Denver
"
"
Council Bluffs
Omaha
"
Council Bluffs
Omaha
Council Bluffs
Norfolk,NE
Sidney,NE
"
"
"
"
Denver
Kansas City
Chian
East [ 7 cars ]
etc.

"Maybe you should study UP classification yards instead. I've seen
diagrams that show tracks marked for railroad ABC or XYZ -- the UP
probably held cars for the Milw@Omaha or SP@Ogden (etc) on
specific classification tracks. And it probably cleaned out those
tracks daily, or twice daily -- resulting in (surprise!) blocks of
cars that were not random at all."

As I said, UP apparently did not block cars on eastbounds through Ogden-Laramie. Blocking may have occurred prior to that but it is clear that in 1949 eastbound trains were not blocked. Another example shows for 7 cars, every other one going to Kansas City or Omaha. Another shows cars bound for Denver interspersed with those bound for Chian and Laramie. Here's a strange one. 15 cars destined for Laramie followed by one headed to Chian followed by 7 going to Chian. For eastbounds, Fraley wrote down the city destination or mile marker. For westbounds, UP assigned numbers to destinations [ see UP Manifest and Perishable Train Schedules, Schedule 6 ]. Thus, 1 was SP through Ogden, 1B was Forwarder merchandise for SP at Ogden, 2 through Ogden north, 3 through Ogden to SLC, 4 south of SLC, 5 through Granger north, 6 northwest of Pocatello through Granger, 7 Chian to Ogden, 8 Denver, etc. These are not tracks. There's a video showing the yardmaster at Council Bluffs or North Platte showing cards with the numbers and the attacment to frt cars.

">Tim wasn't wrong. The theory simply fails for the data that we
have for the Overland Route.
"Fail" is too vague. YOUR data does not directly demonstrate the
proportional distribution theory. But dare I say it, Sherman Hill
is not the only place in the railroad world."

You're kidding again, right?

"And your data is
not proven to be representative or typical of the UP either. So
why should anyone rely on it?"

No one should. Note that I have never said that it should be relied on...unless one is modeling Chian to Ogden. However, as I noted as well, if one is modeling a similar scenario, like SP-SSW, SP-RI, NP-CB&Q, GN-CB&Q, a similar situation might be present.

I'm going to analyze my 1956 data and we'll see what that shows. Fortunately for other members on the group, it will probably take me 5 yrs to do it.

Mike Brock

Re: Freight car distribution

Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>
 

Egad,
Will this thread never end?
----
Peter J. McClosky
Eugene, Oregon
pmcclosky@...
pmcclosky@...
Note: No trees were killed in the sending of this message,
but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Freight car distribution-are we looking for the "Rosetta Stone"?

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Steve Lucas.

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 18, 2008, at 7:56 AM, devansprr wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.
Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?
Dave,

History of the Petroleum Administration for War, 1941-1945, Paperback
By: Petroleum Administration for War (Author), et al

I picked up my copy at Amazon for $37.50. Was it worth that much? YMMV. I once bought a book for $150 because it had a photo I wanted to see...

Does the book have specific railroad information? Nothing on ownership, lots on transportation, and a tremendous amount of "setting the scene" that I think will be invaluable in simply providing the milieu of 1944. So this book will not particularly help you with building models or even assembling or running trains, but it will give you an in-depth understanding of how the petroleum industry worked and information on ancillary industries as well. The chapter on rationing was fascinating stuff, and will be useful in getting my service stations modeled, for example.

It was a govt publication, although this reprint may be private (I didn't look). It is basically the final report of the PAW on all of their activities during the war. It is reasonably lengthy... like 400 pages, although about 1/3 of that is appendices.

It is a policy wonk's dream and is loaded with lots of neat statistics. I use it to help me fall asleep at night, which explains my slow progress ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.
Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?

Thanks for the good info,

Dave Evans

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

The SP -5 and UP -6 were identical except that the UP retained the A end door from the -4 plan. Both -5 and -6 changed to dual center sills from the single on the -4. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Union Pacific Stock car class


Rich Yoder wrote:
> Thank you Tony.
> What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?

Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well
after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for
sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One
would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure
details differ.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 17, 2008, at 10:19 PM, devansprr wrote:
I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.
Yes

Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?
During WWII (and in fact prior and post) the output of "the mid- continent" refineries was used almost exclusively in that region. Those refineries were strained trying to produce just what was needed for the war effort in that area. Very early in the war (winter '42-43) there may have been some shifting of supplies from the central to the eastern region, but it paled in comparison to the movement of crude by rail.

The Big Inch and Little Inch pipelines were build for crude, correct. In addition, many pipelines that had been built to carry refined products away from refineries were "reversed" to carry crude towards the refineries.

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to has all of this in (painful) detail. For example, last night as I continued to wade through it, I learned that drilling in established fields was restricted to a 40 acre plot spacing, to maximize production while minimizing steel use. Interestingly, even back then, there were serious concerns that the war would so deplete the known reserves that oil might become a rare fuel... foreshadowing our current situation. Written in 1946, the book is also a fascinating mixture of the gloating of the victor mixed with revelations about just how dire the oil situation, and in fact the war, as it depended on oil, had been. Included are both remarkable stories of government industry cooperation, as well as bungling (eg. not telling the oil producers what products would be needed where and when for secrecy reasons, and many rationing problems).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

ike wrote

In 1949 it is slightly more than one day's trains.
That seems odd to me, considering that the SP usually ran
more than 30 freights (60-100 cars) over Donner Pass on a
typical day, and most of that was going to or coming from
Ogden. And that doesn't include 4 or 6 daily trains going
to/from Oregon via the Modoc. The D&RGW got a little bit of
SP's traffic, but not much. At Sherman Hill the UP would
also have traffic from the LA&SL and OSL. And during the
peak perishable season, SP could move nearly 1,000 reefers
in a day over Donner.

Tim O'

Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike wrote

Malcolm loved to shoot SP box cars so he bribed the SP CEO's
secretary to make sure SP box cars went through Omaha.
I have a logical explanation. Not every UP freight on Sherman
Hill served the same purpose. Some were locals. Some were headed
to the PNW. Some were headed to Denver, or Kansas. And SOME were
blocked cars collected for return to the SP. Does this seem odd
to you? There were just 3 other class 1's in California besides
the UP, and 1 of them was the most dominant railroad there --
the SP. Considering that the SP turned over 1,000 cars a day
over to the UP at Ogden, why does it seem unexpected to you that
the UP might want to expedite empty "return to owner" blocks at
times? The SP probably turned over all kinds of PRR and C&NW and
LS&I and SLSF and SAL cars at Ogden too, but LOGIC would say
that those would not be "returned when empty" to the SP. As I
said before, you keep beating this SP horse to death. SP was
essential to the Overland Route in your era -- it was basically
a joint operation. And to help you out, the connections at Omaha
were 7 -- C&NW/CMStP&O, MILW, CRI&P, CB&Q, CGW, WABASH, and IC.
These 7 fought over the tidal wave of traffic the UP terminated
at Omaha/Council Bluffs -- and a good part of that wave was
coming from the SP. Does it seem odd to you that the UP would
have blocks of cars for its eastern connections?

Maybe you should study UP classification yards instead. I've seen
diagrams that show tracks marked for railroad ABC or XYZ -- the UP
probably held cars for the Milw@Omaha or SP@Ogden (etc) on
specific classification tracks. And it probably cleaned out those
tracks daily, or twice daily -- resulting in (surprise!) blocks of
cars that were not random at all.

Tim wasn't wrong. The theory simply fails for the data that we
have for the Overland Route.
"Fail" is too vague. YOUR data does not directly demonstrate the
proportional distribution theory. But dare I say it, Sherman Hill
is not the only place in the railroad world. And your data is
not proven to be representative or typical of the UP either. So
why should anyone rely on it?

Tim O'Connor

Re: DTI trucks

SUVCWORR@...
 

In a message dated 8/17/2008 11:57:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
b.leppert@... writes:

I have no idea what an X35 box car is.



The PRR class X35 boxcar was one car class -- the Pennsy's lone 1932 AAR car.

I do not know of any published photos off hand only the drawing for which I
provided the link in my previous posting and the application of the truck.

See also the PRR 2E-F10 truck

The D and E refer to journal size. D = 40,000 lbs per axle capacity and E =
50000 lbs per axle capacity. There is a 2 inch difference in the axle
centers.

The 2E-F10 were used under F30A, F30C, G27 and H30.

See _http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRTruckTypes-C422800.html_
(http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRTruckTypes-C422800.html)

for the application of the various PRR truck classes.

Rich Orr

(http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F10-E405873.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr)



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )