Date   
Re: Freight car distribution

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Walter M. Clark wrote:
True, but actually I was looking at the floor/underframe for one of Al's B-50-1/2/3/4 box cars, with the idea of trying a Harriman-era F-50-1/2/3 working from the photos in Chapter 9 of Volume 3. But that's going to be after Naperville, and maybe Cocoa Beach, too.
Sounds promising. I'd like to hear how it goes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Aley, Jeff A
 

Tony's suspicions appear to be correct. The UP S-40-6 is closely related to the SP S-40-5 but there ARE differences.

Apparently (Tony can please confirm) the S-40-5 was pretty much unchanged during its lifetime. In contrast, the S-40-6 had various letterboards, fascia heights, doors, end doors removed, roof corner gussets, poling pockets, hand brakes, brakes (K changed to AB) and trucks during their lifetimes.

Short of a full-blown presentation on the subject, I suggest the info on the Westerfield website http://www.westerfield.biz/ as a handy summary.

The best way to model the car is the Westerfield kit. If you want a plastic RTR or kit, I suggest patience, as I believe an S-40-6 will be forthcoming in the next year.

Regards,

-Jeff


________________________________
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Rich Yoder wrote:
Thank you Tony.
What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?
Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well
after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for
sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One
would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure
details differ.

Tony Thompson

Re: Freight car distribution

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
.... who has a layout on which to run full length freight trains?
------------------------------------

I do as does anyone whose layout is in a train sim. I routinely run 60+ car
freight trains and could just as easilly run 100+ car trains.

You guys should not assume that everybody on this list is limited to HO
scale.

Dave Nelson

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Yoder wrote:
Thank you Tony.
What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?
Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure details differ.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: ADMIN: Digest

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Well Mike, knowing that I'm one of the former jailees that you've
mentioned, maybe a grace period of one digest would be in order. This
list has unreasonable volume to get individual messages.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

I read and post on the Yahoo website. That way I get to the group
when I want to and don't have the messages, or even the digests, build
up in my in box until I can devote some time to this group. Works for
me, YMMV.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA

Re: Freight car distribution

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Walter Clark wrote:
And Tony's comment about SP flat cars means those of us who model the
SP pre-World War II are up the creek because there aren't any models
of pre-World War II SP flat cars (in HO scale that I know of, at
least).
So far, you're right. But straight-side-sill flats are not
exactly
the toughest scratchbuilding job there is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
True, but actually I was looking at the floor/underframe for one of
Al's B-50-1/2/3/4 box cars, with the idea of trying a Harriman-era
F-50-1/2/3 working from the photos in Chapter 9 of Volume 3. But
that's going to be after Naperville, and maybe Cocoa Beach, too. I've
recently completed a big non-model railroad project that kept me from
the work bench for the past four months.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA

Re: DTI trucks

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

This is interesting. Do you know of any published photos? And hopefully not in some issue of the Keystone; the only one I have is Summer 1988. And heck, I have no idea what an X35 box car is.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich" <SUVCWORR@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: DTI trucks




PRR truck class 2D-F10 tracing e-94261 issued 1932. These were used
under FM class flat cars, X29 and X35 boxcars.

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2d-
f10.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr=

Rich Orr

Re: Freight car distribution

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I grow weary of this. No one has answered Tony's challenge to provide
evidence that supports a "regional bias in boxcars" position. It seems
that any evidence that does not support this position is dismissed as
"absurd" or "biased" and opinion and hyperbole are used in lieu of data.
Many of the arguments that have been used about statistics are not based
in a sound understanding of the field. For example, deviations from the
mean are EXPECTED and do not invalidate the mean. Certainly, modeling the
deviations would be.... deviant!

What I find truly remarkable is the wealth of DIFFERENT types of data that
seem to support the national fleet as a starting place for a model
representation. The Charles data is flawed at best, yet it supports the
model. Wheel reports from different locations support the model...

-It ISN'T about individual trains (How often do we need to say this?)
-Individual trains may have very specific make-ups that vary significantly
from the national averages.
-It is about a "fleet"
-That fleet will then fluctuate on the layout of the owner, providing
deviations from the mean... and modeling those deviations that almost
certainly occur in real life.
-It is a STARTING place - I have yet to hear anyone offer a different
starting place based on data other than their own opinion, and frankly,
I'd rather take my chances with the data ;^)
-The model DOES NOT preclude the use of oddballs, but it does INFORM the
modeler that these are oddballs.

Over and out
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Bruce Smith
 

On Sun, August 17, 2008 9:06 pm, Rich wrote:
It would appear that we are headed down the road of confusing average
and mean. Which are totally different. Given 10,000 freight cars
past a given point, the average will most likely mimic the national
fleet based on Tim and Dave's data. However, the mean may be skewed
in one direction or the other significantly.

Rich Orr
Um, Rich,

The mean is the average. Are you thinking about the median? (the point at
which half the samples are above that value and half are below).,

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:


Some rules of thumb -
-UTLX had the biggest fleet so the X-3 would likely be the most common
tank (Lots of Sunshine kits!) and IIRC, the 8K size was NOT the most
common (10K?)


During WWII, the tank cars and pipelines carried crude oil and not
refined
products to the refineries in the NE. Those fields, as others have
noted
were onshore fields in Louisianna and Texas.
Bruce,

For UTLX, my '43 ORER tank tally has:

18830 - 8k TM
13666 - 10k TM
1008 - 8k TMI
3600 - 10k TMI

plus 1556 under 8k, and 18 either over 10k or multi-compartment.

I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.
Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?

I know today's Colonial pipeline from the Gulf to the NE (runs about 5
miles from my house) is only for refined product, but it is post-war.

Regards,
Dave Evans

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Rich <SUVCWORR@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Richard Yoder" <oscale48@...> wrote:

Yes I mean UP #46759.
What class was that car?

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

Can't tell you the class but from the 1930 ORER it is a single deck
steel u/f stock car number series 44250 - 46759 IL 36'6" IW 8'5" IH 8'
2596 cu ft 80,000lbs capacity door 5' x 7'10" end door 1'10/2' x 3'1"

Rich Orr

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

It would appear that we are headed down the road of confusing average
and mean. Which are totally different. Given 10,000 freight cars past a given point, the average will most likely mimic the national fleet based on Tim and Dave's data. However, the mean may be skewed in one direction or the other significantly.
====================

Tim's data doesn't say that. He has the percentages of system and foreign ownerships on line and off line. It's a big leap of faith to extrapolate that distribution of individual ownerships.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Steve Lucas writes:

"Tony--

After reading this thread for some time, I have to agree with your basic premise. Most major through transcon routes such as the UP in Wyoming would very likely have over a given period, percentages of each road's boxcars in keeping with the national averages. The law of averages supports this."
------------

I say that statement is dead wrong.
================


Well...perhaps someone's law of averages supports it but the data does not. Can you explain that?
--------------------------------------

The law of averages, or the law of large numbers, works only for homogeneous data sets. The national box car fleet did not meet that qualification. It could be reasonably be said to apply to the percentages of NYC, PRR and B&O amrks on the UP, but not to the number of thsoe marks releative to UP direct connsections.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "John Stokes" >This is the other factor in this essentially impossible and largely meaningless exercise in trying to figure out how many cars of each type would typically be seen on a train in the time period selected and then extrapolate that information to one's model railroad.

Agreed. The whole exercise is meaningless because it's all predicated on the equal percentage of all ownerships on all railraods, a totally unwarranted assumption. If I looked at a model railroad situated in California and saw percentages of FEC, CGA, B&M, RDG, RF&P cars that were not a lot less than SP, WP, SP&S and other westen marks percentages of the national fleet, I would know he's not really modeling the region, but wants to give eastern cars equl weight.


Reality is not the same as a computer simulation under the rather limited and primitive conditions we are working in here. It doesn't take a long time looking at photos, for example, of Northern Pacific or Great Northern freight trains and yards to see that at least on the days the pictures were taken, home road equipment often dominated, but the stats say otherwise. Go figure. Glad you are having fun with all this, Mike.
Using computers, you can get all sorts of detailed calculations based on data and assumptions that are wrong. Unless you are sure of the assumptions, those calculations are useless. I say this as one who believes in computer models and has used them at various time since 1966. But it's a total waste if the initial data assumptions are invalid, which I say is the case for all of those Excel calculations.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: DTI trucks

Rich <SUVCWORR@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Brian

You may not be aware but the earliest version of those trucks
I've seen were cast in 1934 by ASF, while the DT&I cars were
built (with different castings from unknown foundry) in 1949.
So someone had the coil-leaf-coil trucks before DT&I. (Or they
were applied to some other DT&I cars.)
PRR truck class 2D-F10 tracing e-94261 issued 1932. These were used
under FM class flat cars, X29 and X35 boxcars.

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2d-
f10.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr=

Rich Orr

Re: Box car counts by RR - NMRA Charles collection

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

I don't think we can draw too many conclusions on car distrubution
based on the list of cars in the Charles Collection other than to
marvel at the variety of cars which stopped in Harrisburg. The
selection of cars to photograph was at the descretion of the
photographer. Cars in accessable areas or cars which were of
interest to the photographer may have been more likely to have been
photographed so the list may not be a representative sample.

The UP and Southern conductor's books list every car that the
conductor encountered in their trains and should be more likely to be
representative samples for the territories covered.

John King



--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

I believe that the random variables in this situation are the
boxcar
counts for each railroad.
================

The box car ownership counts themselves are highly biased. A
significant percentage of the box cars was our of service. For
example, obsolete cars used only in the harvest season for grain
loading to a very limited number of destination cities, cars aiting
for rebuilding, cars designated for shop programs for special
equipment, etc., etc. Depending on the railroad those could account
for anywhere from five to 20 percent of the box cars.

There are other biases in the live cars. Like 50' DD or WD cars
for lumber loading, cars with six foot doors useful for grain but
likely to be rejected by many shippers. There were os many XM box
cars with dimensional characteristics that would keep them from being
randomly distributed.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Battleship Gons trucks

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., " Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:

Al - C&O battleships can reasonably be modelled from Buckeyes. N&W
early battleships used Pilchers which are available from Bethlehem Car
Works. The Lewis trucks are unlike anything on the market but are
simple enough to scratch build. - Al Westerfield


The Lewis trucks were offered separately in brass by NWSL some years
ago. You may find some if you look.
Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Re: Box car counts by RR - NMRA Charles collection

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I believe that the random variables in this situation are the boxcar
counts for each railroad.
================

The box car ownership counts themselves are highly biased. A significant percentage of the box cars was our of service. For example, obsolete cars used only in the harvest season for grain loading to a very limited number of destination cities, cars aiting for rebuilding, cars designated for shop programs for special equipment, etc., etc. Depending on the railroad those could account for anywhere from five to 20 percent of the box cars.

There are other biases in the live cars. Like 50' DD or WD cars for lumber loading, cars with six foot doors useful for grain but likely to be rejected by many shippers. There were os many XM box cars with dimensional characteristics that would keep them from being randomly distributed.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Rich <SUVCWORR@...>
 


-Does- average always mean the same thing? I learned (correctly, I
hope) that "average" could be one of three things; mean, median or
mode. Usually when folks - those unencumbered by formal education -
say "average" they actually mean "arithmetic mean."

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP
Average amd median are the same thing. total events/number of
observations eg. you observe 100 trains and those trains have 273 ATSF
cars in them. The average number of ATSF cars in a train is 2.73

Mean is that value where 50% of the observations are above or below it

Mode it the value that occurs most frequently.

eg. you observe 10 trains with the following number of PRR cars

3, 0, 3, 1l, 0, 0, 1, 8, 1, 13 total number of cars = 40 average =
4.0 cars per train mean = 2 mode = 0

Rich orr

Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Conner says:

"Mike Brock wrote

My point exactly. The theory doesn't seem to apply to the
Overland Route for SP, CB&Q, C&NW, and Milw...
Actually, it applies exactly to the Overland Route. Your
samples are just too few to be statistically meaningful."

My point again...as I've said from the first. But it IS the data we have. We just don't have enough data to make any definite judgements. The Nelson/Gilbert theory is interesting and useful...as I've said also...but IMO I wouldn't use it to predict or project accurate frt car populations as it exists today. Meaning that, IMO, it needs a bit of adjustment for closely associated RRs...like the Overland Route among others.

"It's not even one day's worth of trains on the UP."

In 1949 it is slightly more than one day's trains.

"The
data do not support ANYONE's theory. In the absence of
data, logic must prevail."

Now I know you're kidding <G>.

"Give me a logical explanation
for your consists, please! All you've said basically is
that Tim was wrong, based on a minute sliver of data. If
you have a better theory, I'm all ears."

That's simple. 1. Fraley loved SP box cars. He liked to run on trains filled with them when possible. He even rode in them sometimes. 2.WP, ATSF, GN, and NP CEO's hated the CEO of SP [ he always beat them at their poker games in Vegas...among other things ] so they wouldn't take his box cars. The UP CEO was never sober enough to gamble. 3. There was a photographer in Omaha...General Malcom B. Malcolm [ also know for having one of 25 gold Big Boys made in Burma in '43 [ the other 24 were sunk in the Yamato Maru incident ]. Malcolm loved to shoot SP box cars so he bribed the SP CEO's secretary to make sure SP box cars went through Omaha.

Tim wasn't wrong. The theory simply fails for the data that we have for the Overland Route. As you'll note in one of his messages to me...that I reprinted...he noticed that as well as I did. A lot of theories break down and have to be adjusted when they fail the test of data. In this case we have no way of knowing if the theory is failing because of the data or the lack of data.

Mike Brock