Date   
Freight car distribution-are we looking for the "Rosetta Stone"?

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Steve Lucas.

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 18, 2008, at 7:56 AM, devansprr wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.
Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?
Dave,

History of the Petroleum Administration for War, 1941-1945, Paperback
By: Petroleum Administration for War (Author), et al

I picked up my copy at Amazon for $37.50. Was it worth that much? YMMV. I once bought a book for $150 because it had a photo I wanted to see...

Does the book have specific railroad information? Nothing on ownership, lots on transportation, and a tremendous amount of "setting the scene" that I think will be invaluable in simply providing the milieu of 1944. So this book will not particularly help you with building models or even assembling or running trains, but it will give you an in-depth understanding of how the petroleum industry worked and information on ancillary industries as well. The chapter on rationing was fascinating stuff, and will be useful in getting my service stations modeled, for example.

It was a govt publication, although this reprint may be private (I didn't look). It is basically the final report of the PAW on all of their activities during the war. It is reasonably lengthy... like 400 pages, although about 1/3 of that is appendices.

It is a policy wonk's dream and is loaded with lots of neat statistics. I use it to help me fall asleep at night, which explains my slow progress ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.
Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?

Thanks for the good info,

Dave Evans

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

The SP -5 and UP -6 were identical except that the UP retained the A end door from the -4 plan. Both -5 and -6 changed to dual center sills from the single on the -4. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Union Pacific Stock car class


Rich Yoder wrote:
> Thank you Tony.
> What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?

Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well
after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for
sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One
would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure
details differ.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 17, 2008, at 10:19 PM, devansprr wrote:
I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.
Yes

Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?
During WWII (and in fact prior and post) the output of "the mid- continent" refineries was used almost exclusively in that region. Those refineries were strained trying to produce just what was needed for the war effort in that area. Very early in the war (winter '42-43) there may have been some shifting of supplies from the central to the eastern region, but it paled in comparison to the movement of crude by rail.

The Big Inch and Little Inch pipelines were build for crude, correct. In addition, many pipelines that had been built to carry refined products away from refineries were "reversed" to carry crude towards the refineries.

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to has all of this in (painful) detail. For example, last night as I continued to wade through it, I learned that drilling in established fields was restricted to a 40 acre plot spacing, to maximize production while minimizing steel use. Interestingly, even back then, there were serious concerns that the war would so deplete the known reserves that oil might become a rare fuel... foreshadowing our current situation. Written in 1946, the book is also a fascinating mixture of the gloating of the victor mixed with revelations about just how dire the oil situation, and in fact the war, as it depended on oil, had been. Included are both remarkable stories of government industry cooperation, as well as bungling (eg. not telling the oil producers what products would be needed where and when for secrecy reasons, and many rationing problems).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

ike wrote

In 1949 it is slightly more than one day's trains.
That seems odd to me, considering that the SP usually ran
more than 30 freights (60-100 cars) over Donner Pass on a
typical day, and most of that was going to or coming from
Ogden. And that doesn't include 4 or 6 daily trains going
to/from Oregon via the Modoc. The D&RGW got a little bit of
SP's traffic, but not much. At Sherman Hill the UP would
also have traffic from the LA&SL and OSL. And during the
peak perishable season, SP could move nearly 1,000 reefers
in a day over Donner.

Tim O'

Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike wrote

Malcolm loved to shoot SP box cars so he bribed the SP CEO's
secretary to make sure SP box cars went through Omaha.
I have a logical explanation. Not every UP freight on Sherman
Hill served the same purpose. Some were locals. Some were headed
to the PNW. Some were headed to Denver, or Kansas. And SOME were
blocked cars collected for return to the SP. Does this seem odd
to you? There were just 3 other class 1's in California besides
the UP, and 1 of them was the most dominant railroad there --
the SP. Considering that the SP turned over 1,000 cars a day
over to the UP at Ogden, why does it seem unexpected to you that
the UP might want to expedite empty "return to owner" blocks at
times? The SP probably turned over all kinds of PRR and C&NW and
LS&I and SLSF and SAL cars at Ogden too, but LOGIC would say
that those would not be "returned when empty" to the SP. As I
said before, you keep beating this SP horse to death. SP was
essential to the Overland Route in your era -- it was basically
a joint operation. And to help you out, the connections at Omaha
were 7 -- C&NW/CMStP&O, MILW, CRI&P, CB&Q, CGW, WABASH, and IC.
These 7 fought over the tidal wave of traffic the UP terminated
at Omaha/Council Bluffs -- and a good part of that wave was
coming from the SP. Does it seem odd to you that the UP would
have blocks of cars for its eastern connections?

Maybe you should study UP classification yards instead. I've seen
diagrams that show tracks marked for railroad ABC or XYZ -- the UP
probably held cars for the Milw@Omaha or SP@Ogden (etc) on
specific classification tracks. And it probably cleaned out those
tracks daily, or twice daily -- resulting in (surprise!) blocks of
cars that were not random at all.

Tim wasn't wrong. The theory simply fails for the data that we
have for the Overland Route.
"Fail" is too vague. YOUR data does not directly demonstrate the
proportional distribution theory. But dare I say it, Sherman Hill
is not the only place in the railroad world. And your data is
not proven to be representative or typical of the UP either. So
why should anyone rely on it?

Tim O'Connor

Re: DTI trucks

SUVCWORR@...
 

In a message dated 8/17/2008 11:57:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
b.leppert@... writes:

I have no idea what an X35 box car is.



The PRR class X35 boxcar was one car class -- the Pennsy's lone 1932 AAR car.

I do not know of any published photos off hand only the drawing for which I
provided the link in my previous posting and the application of the truck.

See also the PRR 2E-F10 truck

The D and E refer to journal size. D = 40,000 lbs per axle capacity and E =
50000 lbs per axle capacity. There is a 2 inch difference in the axle
centers.

The 2E-F10 were used under F30A, F30C, G27 and H30.

See _http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRTruckTypes-C422800.html_
(http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRTruckTypes-C422800.html)

for the application of the various PRR truck classes.

Rich Orr

(http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2E-F10-E405873.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr)



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Re: Freight car distribution

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Walter M. Clark wrote:
True, but actually I was looking at the floor/underframe for one of Al's B-50-1/2/3/4 box cars, with the idea of trying a Harriman-era F-50-1/2/3 working from the photos in Chapter 9 of Volume 3. But that's going to be after Naperville, and maybe Cocoa Beach, too.
Sounds promising. I'd like to hear how it goes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Aley, Jeff A
 

Tony's suspicions appear to be correct. The UP S-40-6 is closely related to the SP S-40-5 but there ARE differences.

Apparently (Tony can please confirm) the S-40-5 was pretty much unchanged during its lifetime. In contrast, the S-40-6 had various letterboards, fascia heights, doors, end doors removed, roof corner gussets, poling pockets, hand brakes, brakes (K changed to AB) and trucks during their lifetimes.

Short of a full-blown presentation on the subject, I suggest the info on the Westerfield website http://www.westerfield.biz/ as a handy summary.

The best way to model the car is the Westerfield kit. If you want a plastic RTR or kit, I suggest patience, as I believe an S-40-6 will be forthcoming in the next year.

Regards,

-Jeff


________________________________
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Rich Yoder wrote:
Thank you Tony.
What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?
Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well
after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for
sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One
would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure
details differ.

Tony Thompson

Re: Freight car distribution

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
.... who has a layout on which to run full length freight trains?
------------------------------------

I do as does anyone whose layout is in a train sim. I routinely run 60+ car
freight trains and could just as easilly run 100+ car trains.

You guys should not assume that everybody on this list is limited to HO
scale.

Dave Nelson

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Yoder wrote:
Thank you Tony.
What car class was that equivalent to on the SP?
Not clear to me. The UP S-40-6 cars were built in 1918, well after the Harriman Lines had dissociated, and I really can't say for sure if this UP class even corresponds exactly to an SP class. One would tend to think of SP's S-40-5, built in 1915-1917, but I'm sure details differ.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: ADMIN: Digest

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Well Mike, knowing that I'm one of the former jailees that you've
mentioned, maybe a grace period of one digest would be in order. This
list has unreasonable volume to get individual messages.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

I read and post on the Yahoo website. That way I get to the group
when I want to and don't have the messages, or even the digests, build
up in my in box until I can devote some time to this group. Works for
me, YMMV.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA

Re: Freight car distribution

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Walter Clark wrote:
And Tony's comment about SP flat cars means those of us who model the
SP pre-World War II are up the creek because there aren't any models
of pre-World War II SP flat cars (in HO scale that I know of, at
least).
So far, you're right. But straight-side-sill flats are not
exactly
the toughest scratchbuilding job there is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
True, but actually I was looking at the floor/underframe for one of
Al's B-50-1/2/3/4 box cars, with the idea of trying a Harriman-era
F-50-1/2/3 working from the photos in Chapter 9 of Volume 3. But
that's going to be after Naperville, and maybe Cocoa Beach, too. I've
recently completed a big non-model railroad project that kept me from
the work bench for the past four months.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA

Re: DTI trucks

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

This is interesting. Do you know of any published photos? And hopefully not in some issue of the Keystone; the only one I have is Summer 1988. And heck, I have no idea what an X35 box car is.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich" <SUVCWORR@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: DTI trucks




PRR truck class 2D-F10 tracing e-94261 issued 1932. These were used
under FM class flat cars, X29 and X35 boxcars.

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=2d-
f10.gif&sel=ftk&sz=sm&fr=

Rich Orr

Re: Freight car distribution

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I grow weary of this. No one has answered Tony's challenge to provide
evidence that supports a "regional bias in boxcars" position. It seems
that any evidence that does not support this position is dismissed as
"absurd" or "biased" and opinion and hyperbole are used in lieu of data.
Many of the arguments that have been used about statistics are not based
in a sound understanding of the field. For example, deviations from the
mean are EXPECTED and do not invalidate the mean. Certainly, modeling the
deviations would be.... deviant!

What I find truly remarkable is the wealth of DIFFERENT types of data that
seem to support the national fleet as a starting place for a model
representation. The Charles data is flawed at best, yet it supports the
model. Wheel reports from different locations support the model...

-It ISN'T about individual trains (How often do we need to say this?)
-Individual trains may have very specific make-ups that vary significantly
from the national averages.
-It is about a "fleet"
-That fleet will then fluctuate on the layout of the owner, providing
deviations from the mean... and modeling those deviations that almost
certainly occur in real life.
-It is a STARTING place - I have yet to hear anyone offer a different
starting place based on data other than their own opinion, and frankly,
I'd rather take my chances with the data ;^)
-The model DOES NOT preclude the use of oddballs, but it does INFORM the
modeler that these are oddballs.

Over and out
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Bruce Smith
 

On Sun, August 17, 2008 9:06 pm, Rich wrote:
It would appear that we are headed down the road of confusing average
and mean. Which are totally different. Given 10,000 freight cars
past a given point, the average will most likely mimic the national
fleet based on Tim and Dave's data. However, the mean may be skewed
in one direction or the other significantly.

Rich Orr
Um, Rich,

The mean is the average. Are you thinking about the median? (the point at
which half the samples are above that value and half are below).,

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:


Some rules of thumb -
-UTLX had the biggest fleet so the X-3 would likely be the most common
tank (Lots of Sunshine kits!) and IIRC, the 8K size was NOT the most
common (10K?)


During WWII, the tank cars and pipelines carried crude oil and not
refined
products to the refineries in the NE. Those fields, as others have
noted
were onshore fields in Louisianna and Texas.
Bruce,

For UTLX, my '43 ORER tank tally has:

18830 - 8k TM
13666 - 10k TM
1008 - 8k TMI
3600 - 10k TMI

plus 1556 under 8k, and 18 either over 10k or multi-compartment.

I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.
Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?

I know today's Colonial pipeline from the Gulf to the NE (runs about 5
miles from my house) is only for refined product, but it is post-war.

Regards,
Dave Evans

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

Rich <SUVCWORR@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Richard Yoder" <oscale48@...> wrote:

Yes I mean UP #46759.
What class was that car?

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

Can't tell you the class but from the 1930 ORER it is a single deck
steel u/f stock car number series 44250 - 46759 IL 36'6" IW 8'5" IH 8'
2596 cu ft 80,000lbs capacity door 5' x 7'10" end door 1'10/2' x 3'1"

Rich Orr

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

It would appear that we are headed down the road of confusing average
and mean. Which are totally different. Given 10,000 freight cars past a given point, the average will most likely mimic the national fleet based on Tim and Dave's data. However, the mean may be skewed in one direction or the other significantly.
====================

Tim's data doesn't say that. He has the percentages of system and foreign ownerships on line and off line. It's a big leap of faith to extrapolate that distribution of individual ownerships.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478