Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

To add;

 

Steel performance did vary over time.  The “coal” (and other) RRs were constantly looking for something better to build their hoppers from, particularly for slope and side sheets.  I have read plenty of correspondence in which this exact issue is discussed.  Over time, the steel companies supplied the RRs and builders, with steel whose properties were increasingly resistant to corrosion, “Cor-Ten” being one USS product.  Hoppers rotted more quickly than others, due to their prevalence in hauling coal, which generated sulfuric acid, for one.  Hoppers did get better at not corroding as fast, with new formula steels.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:

I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 

 

But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Virginian Freight Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:
I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 
 
But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Nelson, please yield to the temptation to buy the car.

 

  1. You like it.
  2. There have been many (I lost count) emails giving you rationale with various levels of a) plausibility and b) fairly hard evidence that the Fx 8 >>>COULD<<< have been on your railroad.
  3. You don’t HAVE to put the car on the layout.  It could be a shelf queen, a prize in your collection, because you LIKE THE CAR.

 

Schuyler, who has a lot of cars because I LIKE them, and when I get my layout built, those cars will not be on it, because of date of the prototype’s construction, either too early or too late.  I can live with that.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 1:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Unless somebody can provide justification as to why this car would pass through Burlington, either between Chicago and Omaha or between St. Louis and Minneapolis, I can’t justify adding it to my roster. Please, someone give me a reason to buy this car.

 

Nelson, 
    if you are looking for a good reason for the ATSF car here is one, and I have written parts of this prior on the M&StL list:
   My father was the traffic manager for his Minneapolis based company that manufactured mostly engine rebuilding machines and other metal working machines. Machines that the southwest part of our country used. That part of the US relied on these heavily as cars tended to last longer down there minus snow and salt used on the highways to treat them up here. They also had some rather heavy machines also for (semi) diesel engine rebuilding.

    On family outings we would stop so my dad (where my brother and I got the railfan bug from) would stop from time to time at M&StL depots so he could get some photos. Of course we asked - why? 

And what he said is the justification you might be looking for.  From his company, once loaded on a boxcar and the load was headed to the southwest US, the M&StL would take it down to the AT&SF in Iowa, and from there it would go to the Arizona, California area he thought, rather fast.  After shipping the items, invariably the salesman would ask two or three days later "where is it" and my dad would call the Santa Fe and get a report telling the salesman, it is almost there,  tomorrow it should be there. My father was truly impressed by how these two railroads could move a shipment from the Twin Cities to the southwest.  From time to time he my father would throw business to other lines and occasionally trucking companies when shipments were headed down there however was never as impressed.   


    When these rebuilding machines would need to be rebuilt, the routing was the same, except in reverse. When they needed materials from the southwest in large enough quantities to make rail the preferred option, he specified Santa Fe. My father had a coffee mug from the Santa Fe in his office I recall. One of several items railroad associated.  


 And through his organizations of traffic managers he recalled others also spoke highly of the M&StL/AT&SF service to the southwest.   
...........
Tim O' stated All the salesman need do is take the traffic manager out for a nice dinner on the town :-D     

According to my father - well, a two edged sword. 
He after coming home from a dinner with a salesman, he would complain to my mom, Same as always, they feed you, then do their best to get you drunk and then shove a contract in front of you to sign.  My father thought there were easier ways to get a good meal.                  Jim Dick -St. Paul, MN 


GeoRR rebuild's roof

Clark Propst
 

Just bought a Tichy Georgia rebuilt box car kit. The roof looks like a XLA? I have a Speedwitch model that has a Hutchins roof. Photos I have show, maybe, a radial roof?, what could be the Hutchins rood and a flat welded roof. I'm thinking of scraping off the roof battens to simulate a flat welded roof.
Any assistance, clarifications or opinions are welcome, Thanks!!
CW Propst 


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Nelson Moyer
 

Interesting antidote, Dick, but I don’t model the M&StL. The Q was primarily an East-West road with terminuses in Denver and Kansas City for Everywhere West. Chicago to Kansas City and interchange with the ATSF would be the most direct and likely route to the Southwest. That bypasses Burlington, as routing would go through Galesburg and Quincy. The Burlington Route’s route between St. Louis and Minneapolis-St. Paul only extended from St. Louis to Burlington, and then by trackage rights on the CRI&P the rest of the way, but only for the Zephyr Rocket, which was a joint venture. Freight didn’t run North of Burlington except between Burlington and Mediapolis and then Northwest on the Burlington-Washington branch. The Q had trackage rights on the RI between Burlington and Mediapolis. North-South freight traffic on the Q was limited to Burlington-Hannibal-Quincy-St. Louis. The only ATSF interchange in Iowa was Ft. Madison. After finding Richard Hindrickson’s table of ATSF cars in 1950, it’s pretty clear that at least ten classes or groups of classes have a much higher probability of showing up in Burlington, so I’ve decided not to get the RCW Fe class kit. Restraint is an essential requirement of prototype modeling.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Unless somebody can provide justification as to why this car would pass through Burlington, either between Chicago and Omaha or between St. Louis and Minneapolis, I can’t justify adding it to my roster. Please, someone give me a reason to buy this car.

 

Nelson, 
    if you are looking for a good reason for the ATSF car here is one, and I have written parts of this prior on the M&StL list:
   My father was the traffic manager for his Minneapolis based company that manufactured mostly engine rebuilding machines and other metal working machines. Machines that the southwest part of our country used. That part of the US relied on these heavily as cars tended to last longer down there minus snow and salt used on the highways to treat them up here. They also had some rather heavy machines also for (semi) diesel engine rebuilding.

    On family outings we would stop so my dad (where my brother and I got the railfan bug from) would stop from time to time at M&StL depots so he could get some photos. Of course we asked - why? 

And what he said is the justification you might be looking for.  From his company, once loaded on a boxcar and the load was headed to the southwest US, the M&StL would take it down to the AT&SF in Iowa, and from there it would go to the Arizona, California area he thought, rather fast.  After shipping the items, invariably the salesman would ask two or three days later "where is it" and my dad would call the Santa Fe and get a report telling the salesman, it is almost there,  tomorrow it should be there. My father was truly impressed by how these two railroads could move a shipment from the Twin Cities to the southwest.  From time to time he my father would throw business to other lines and occasionally trucking companies when shipments were headed down there however was never as impressed.   

    When these rebuilding machines would need to be rebuilt, the routing was the same, except in reverse. When they needed materials from the southwest in large enough quantities to make rail the preferred option, he specified Santa Fe. My father had a coffee mug from the Santa Fe in his office I recall. One of several items railroad associated.  


 And through his organizations of traffic managers he recalled others also spoke highly of the M&StL/AT&SF service to the southwest.   
...........
Tim O' stated All the salesman need do is take the traffic manager out for a nice dinner on the town :-D     

According to my father - well, a two edged sword. 
He after coming home from a dinner with a salesman, he would complain to my mom, Same as always, they feed you, then do their best to get you drunk and then shove a contract in front of you to sign.  My father thought there were easier ways to get a good meal.                  Jim Dick -St. Paul, MN 


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

np328
 

Unless somebody can provide justification as to why this car would pass through Burlington, either between Chicago and Omaha or between St. Louis and Minneapolis, I can’t justify adding it to my roster. Please, someone give me a reason to buy this car.

 

Nelson, 
    if you are looking for a good reason for the ATSF car here is one, and I have written parts of this prior on the M&StL list:
   My father was the traffic manager for his Minneapolis based company that manufactured mostly engine rebuilding machines and other metal working machines. Machines that the southwest part of our country used. That part of the US relied on these heavily as cars tended to last longer down there minus snow and salt used on the highways to treat them up here. They also had some rather heavy machines also for (semi) diesel engine rebuilding.

    On family outings we would stop so my dad (where my brother and I got the railfan bug from) would stop from time to time at M&StL depots so he could get some photos. Of course we asked - why? 

And what he said is the justification you might be looking for.  From his company, once loaded on a boxcar and the load was headed to the southwest US, the M&StL would take it down to the AT&SF in Iowa, and from there it would go to the Arizona, California area he thought, rather fast.  After shipping the items, invariably the salesman would ask two or three days later "where is it" and my dad would call the Santa Fe and get a report telling the salesman, it is almost there,  tomorrow it should be there. My father was truly impressed by how these two railroads could move a shipment from the Twin Cities to the southwest.  From time to time he my father would throw business to other lines and occasionally trucking companies when shipments were headed down there however was never as impressed.   


    When these rebuilding machines would need to be rebuilt, the routing was the same, except in reverse. When they needed materials from the southwest in large enough quantities to make rail the preferred option, he specified Santa Fe. My father had a coffee mug from the Santa Fe in his office I recall. One of several items railroad associated.  


 And through his organizations of traffic managers he recalled others also spoke highly of the M&StL/AT&SF service to the southwest.   
...........
Tim O' stated All the salesman need do is take the traffic manager out for a nice dinner on the town :-D     

According to my father - well, a two edged sword. 

He after coming home from a dinner with a salesman, he would complain to my mom, Same as always, they feed you, then do their best to get you drunk and then shove a contract in front of you to sign.  My father thought there were easier ways to get a good meal.                  Jim Dick -St. Paul, MN 


Re: Virginian Freight Cars

Matt Goodman
 

It’s interesting that the streaking/fading down from the lettering is rust colored - not white. I just weathered a batch of cars with a white fade last week. If I’d seen this photo when Garth initially went it, I may have tried the rust on a few letters. 

Maybe this is typical for hoppers, and I’m only now starting to pay attention? 

Anyway, I’ll file this in my reference folder. I model 50 years earlier, but I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 

Thanks Garth. 

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On May 22, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Friends,

I'm taking a brief break from the C&O, and today offering three Virginian photos for your interest and approval. All photos were taken circa 1982-1985 or so by myself.

Pulpwood car 809 was spotted in the NS (ex-N&W) yard at Crewe. According to my trusty October 1958 ORER, this car was from series 800-834. Between the bulkheads it was 42 1/2 feet with an overall length of 46 feet and a capacity of 110,000 pounds. In 1958 the Virginian rostered just 77 LP flat cars. How many were left by 1985 is unknown, but 809 was probably one of the last, and actually this car may have been in the dead line.

Hopper 1112 came from series 1000-2499. It was 40 feet inside, with a volume of 2573 cubic feet and a capacity of 140,000 pounds. Note the repair plates along the bottom of the car side. I found this car on the rarely-used interchange track between the NS (ex-Southern) and CSX (ex-C&O) in Charlottesville also around 1985. This is certainly unusual, but maybe it held a special grade of coal of some sort (it is loaded). It does prove that you could have an occasional VGN hopper car off home rails.

Hopper 27116 came from series 27000-27499. It is a 33' IL car with a volume of 2041 cubic feet and a capacity of 110,000 pounds. I found this one at the NS (ex-N&W) coal yard in Norfolk in 1982 or 1983. A few Virginian cars still showed up there, as did some from the Nickel Plate Road, but these were actually NS home-road cars by then. Sadly, this shot isn't in very good focus. One of the lens elements in my Canon FTB had shifted, though I didn't know it. I shot quite a few fuzzy shots with the 50 mm lens (it worked fine with wide-angle and telephoto lenses).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


Re: Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner

Dave Parker
 

Fresh stencils all around that seem to coincide with the 7-25 reweigh stencil.  The car should have been weighed again no later than summer of 1927, but I'm guessing the photo date is very close to the reweigh date given the absence of soot or apparent weathering.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner

Richard Townsend
 

Cheap electricity came to the Portland area with the Bonneville Power Administration in the 30's. That might be what stimulated the market for electric stoves.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2020 12:19 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner

Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner
A circa 1926-1930 photo (reweigh date 7-25) from Ball State University:
This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.
Looks like there will be a lot of electric cooking in Portland.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Photo: NYC Boxcar 161603

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: NYC Boxcar 161603

A circa 1931 photo from Ball State University:

https://dmr.bsu.edu/digital/collection/swift/id/1166/rec/6

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: NKP Boxcar 28676 With Banner

A circa 1926-1930 photo (reweigh date 7-25) from Ball State University:

https://dmr.bsu.edu/digital/collection/swift/id/1067

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Looks like there will be a lot of electric cooking in Portland.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I can think of unworkable routes without even trying.

    Of course. But even if segments of such routes are approved, the railroad can refuse them because there is a reverse haul in the example you constructed. 
     I certainly did not mean, and don't think I ever said, that any conceivable route, no matter how bizarre, could be chosen by a shipper or anyone else.

Tony Thompson




Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Nelson Moyer
 

Good to hear from you, Michael, and thanks for the confirmation on interchange in Ft. Madison.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Gross
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:12 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Nelson, just a quick note:

In your 1953 timeframe, the ATSF regularly interchanged with the CB&Q in Fort Madison in town just east of the two depots.  Fort Madison's Shopton yard would send one of their H12-44 switch engines "uptown" to do the work.  Later, perhaps in the 1960s, a newer interchange track was built near the Shopton yards and the "uptown" interchange tracks abandoned.
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Michael Gross
 

Nelson, just a quick note:

In your 1953 timeframe, the ATSF regularly interchanged with the CB&Q in Fort Madison in town just east of the two depots.  Fort Madison's Shopton yard would send one of their H12-44 switch engines "uptown" to do the work.  Later, perhaps in the 1960s, a newer interchange track was built near the Shopton yards and the "uptown" interchange tracks abandoned.
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Michael Gross
 


--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior

O Fenton Wells
 

Yes Eric it affected the Southern SU boxcars and vent cars as well, Although some of the pulp wood racks made from SU boxcars were upgraded with AB brake systems
Fenton

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 10:20 AM Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

Here are some L&N ventilated boxcar quantities to fill in a few years in between Ray’s info.

 

1943 – 2,096 cars

1951 – 992 cars

1953 – 37 cars

 

I suspect the pending K brake ban of January 1, 1954 affected the fleet numbers after 1950.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior

 

4,347 VMs on the roster in 1930 (5th largest fleet), four still on the roster in 1962.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


L&N Ventilated Boxcars (was Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior)

Benjamin Hom
 

Eric Hansmann wrote:
"Here are some L&N ventilated boxcar quantities to fill in a few years in between Ray’s info.

1943 – 2,096 cars
1951 – 992 cars
1953 – 37 cars
 
I suspect the pending K brake ban of January 1, 1954 affected the fleet numbers after 1950."

Large numbers of new boxcars had something to do with it as well - L&N received over 5,000 PS-1s from orders between 1950 and 1953.


Ben Hom 


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Tim O'Connor
 


Yes, really.

I can think of unworkable routes without even trying.

I'm shipping from Chicago to Buffalo.

PRR Chicago to Pittsburgh. B&O Pittsburgh to St Louis. NKP St Louis to Buffalo.

Now why can't I do that?

Answer - because it is NOT an approved tariff route, and it's doubtful those three railroads
would ever agree to share even a DIME of that carload with that origin and destination. So there
are (most likely) no approved routes for this car that involves those three railroads. Tough luck
for the shipper I guess. (Although circuitous routings were often preferred by cargo brokers.)


On 6/23/2020 9:09 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:

Oversimplification, Tony - the shipper could choose AMONG routes that were available in a published TARIFF.

   Not really. It's true that an agent with a full set of "approved routing" books had a four-foot shelf of the things -- but as Jerry Stewart pointed out, it would be hard to devise a routing east of the Mississippi that wasn't approved. Less so out West, but even there, many, many possibilities. 
     I have gone over these routing points many times in my blog and in this forum, Tim, as you well know.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior

Eric Hansmann
 

Here are some L&N ventilated boxcar quantities to fill in a few years in between Ray’s info.

 

1943 – 2,096 cars

1951 – 992 cars

1953 – 37 cars

 

I suspect the pending K brake ban of January 1, 1954 affected the fleet numbers after 1950.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:17 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior

 

4,347 VMs on the roster in 1930 (5th largest fleet), four still on the roster in 1962.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 


Re: Help Needed for MoPac Box Car Model

Ted Culotta
 

Hi John-

Sorry! I really stepped in it with this one. 85450-85949, built by ACF in 1927, did not have end doors. They did have Dreadnaught ends and Camel doors. I will have to go back and update the set. I'll send you an updated set.

My apologies.

Cheers,
Ted

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