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Re: Freight car roofs, 1959
And check out those CLEAN patches on the wood reefer - I suppose to make the reporting marks and other data legible! I'll bet no modelers have done that. :-P In 1962 that NP round roof box car would be a recent addition to the NP roster. Tim O'Connor
On 4/9/2020 4:51 PM, Tom Madden via groups.io wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:10 PM, D. Scott Chatfield wrote: --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Hooker Chemical, Tacoma
Schuyler Larrabee
Well, my first thought about this spectacular photo was "Wow, a snap-track layout!" Well, not quite, the radii are larger than even 22", but I also would like to know what is that arrangement on the opposite side of the river all about?
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Schuyler
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 10:27 AM To: bbfcl@groups.io; mfcl@groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hooker Chemical, Tacoma Jeff Helm pointed out this SPECTACULAR industrial photo from the 1960's but the Hooker Chemical plant here was built in the 1940's and lasted through the 1990's (at least that long) so I thought it is worth sharing around. If my stupid mail program truncates the long URL you'll have to paste it back together to see it in your browser. :-\:-) cdm17061.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p17061coll21&CISOPTR=32743&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=2848&DMHEIGHT=2210 =================================================== On 4/8/2020 3:05 PM, Jeff Helm wrote: Found the online photos, at the Tacoma Public Library digital collections. Some interesting links: -- *Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Re: Meat reefers
There were DEFINITELY slaughterhouses that could produce 50 loads per day! A full load
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of beef sides or pork bellies probably had barely 20 tons of meat, if that. I once read a PRR publication that listed average tons per load and was surprised how many cargos did not approach the full weight capacity of freight cars. Scan from the Illinois Central 1955 annual report.
On 4/9/2020 3:24 PM, Ted Schnepf wrote:
Hi Nelson, --
*Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Re: Meat reefers
William Hirt
Ted,
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As Don Valentine pointed out, the Red Caboose Mather is a 36' car. From what I can see in the January 1953 ORER, there are only two of cars of that type listed in service under the Morrell listing. There over 1200 of the 40' cars in service which was noted to be in the Refrigerator Car Guide. Morrell was also leasing 3 Mather 40' boxcars (MCAX Series 500-699). Bill Hirt
On 4/9/2020 8:14 PM, Ted Schnepf wrote:
Hi Bill and Nelson,
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Re: Meat reefers
Bob Webber
The H&B built 1910 & 1911 Mather Beef and Vegetable
37' cars appear to have been built new. They did have steel
UF & framing, with sheathing, but there is no indication that the
frames were not new.
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Beef Car users - Detroit Refrigerator Express, Evansville Packing, White Pro. Co. 50 Veg. cars have no individual users.
At 08:48 AM 4/10/2020, you wrote:
This is the history included with the Red Caboose Model, written by Richard Hendrickson.
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Hooker Chemical, Tacoma
Jeff Helm pointed out this SPECTACULAR industrial photo from the 1960's but the Hooker Chemical
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plant here was built in the 1940's and lasted through the 1990's (at least that long) so I thought it is worth sharing around. If my stupid mail program truncates the long URL you'll have to paste it back together to see it in your browser. :-\:-) cdm17061.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p17061coll21&CISOPTR=32743&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=2848&DMHEIGHT=2210 ===================================================
On 4/8/2020 3:05 PM, Jeff Helm wrote:
Found the online photos, at the Tacoma Public Library digital collections. Some interesting links: --
*Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
CJ;
I knew a guy that worked there, also. He seemed to have done the same jobs as you. I know they fabricated long girders, and he said they got 65-ft gons in from the PB&NE all the time. I asked if it was Beth steel, and he confirmed that they got their steel from Bethlehem, because it was cheaper, even with USS literally at their back door. I wonder what those gons were? Logic would say Bethlehem products?
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of CJ Riley via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 3:28 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
I see the roof of Levenson Steel poking up. I worked there for a few weeks in the early 60s painting steel for I-7 in eastern Ohio. I was transferred there following 2months doing the same job at their McKees
Rocks facility in the leased former Pressed Steel Car plant. Even got to load over length girders in mill gone for a bit.
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Re: Meat reefers
Packaged and prepared meats from the midwest probably were more common on the west coast than whole animal sides due to the distances and transit times. For fresh meat, stock cars carried animals to slaughterhouses in California and that traffic continued into the 1990's. But there are plenty of pics of meatpacker reefers on the west coast. Tim O'Connor
On 4/8/2020 11:51 AM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
No, not safe to say. Meat reefers ran just about everywhere. Maybe only one at a time on branches, but they ran. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Meat reefers
This is the history included with the Red Caboose Model, written by Richard Hendrickson.
Mather's 37' Refrigerator Cars Among the cars in the Mather leasing fleet were several hundred 37' meat refrigerator cars which had been converted from stock cars. From the 1930's through the 1950's, several hundred of these cars were leased to the Rath Packing Co. Other meat packing firms that leased 37' Mather reefers at one time or another include the Hygrade Food Products Corporation, the Hunter Packing Co., the Kohrs Packing Co., and Oscar Mayer and Co. These cars were also operated on a short-term lease basis under Mather's own MUNX and MRRX reporting marks.
Mather's 37' refrigerator cars had steel framed bodies with wood sheathing and interior lining, single sheathed ends, and Mather patent metal sheathed roofs. During the 1940's they were upgraded with AB air brakes, geared hand brakes, new draft gear, and modified end sills. In this form, many remained active through the 1950's and some lasted into the 1960's.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Webber
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 8:23 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
There were 36' 7" Mather Vegetable & Beef cars built by H&B. I've not looked at the Red Caboose model, but if they were "short" - shorter than the 40' cars also produced, it could be those? Yes, Don, that’s the one. Doug has replied that the short RC models are likely foobies so it appears the Sunshine model is the only option. I have also built one and the kit was typical of Martin’s early efforts. Bob Webber
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Re: Meat reefers
Bob Webber
There were 36' 7" Mather Vegetable & Beef cars
built by H&B. I've not looked at the Red Caboose model, but if
they were "short" - shorter than the 40' cars also produced, it
could be those?
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At 08:03 AM 4/10/2020, william darnaby wrote: Yes, Don, that’s the one. Doug has replied that the short RC models are likely foobies so it appears the Sunshine model is the only option. I have also built one and the kit was typical of Martin’s early efforts.
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Re: Meat reefers
william darnaby
Yes, Don, that’s the one. Doug has replied that the short RC models are likely foobies so it appears the Sunshine model is the only option. I have also built one and the kit was typical of Martin’s early efforts.
Would you please contact me offline as I have a NERS question.
Thanks, Bill Darnaby
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:20 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Hi Bill, If you mean Gene Green's reefer book I've had it for years and should also have noted that all the 40 ft. Mather cars I'm familiar with had steel ends, unlike any of the 36 ft.cars I've seen or the GA built Morrell cars.
Cordially, Don Valentine
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Re: Pittsburgh photos
Eric Hansmann
Depending upon the era, both banks of each river had rail service for miles from the Point. There are wonderful opportunities for mainline, yard, and branch operations with a wide variety of customers for a layout of almost any size in any scale.
I can sit for hours reviewing images of the Pittsburgh City Photographer collection on the Historic Pittsburgh site. You can see a city transform over time with small and large public works.
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
On April 10, 2020 at 6:46 AM "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
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Re: Pittsburgh photos
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Yeah, I love that area. The fact that it hosted SO many different freight cars is a real draw.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of David Soderblom
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:08 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Pittsburgh photos
Thanks so much; there are so many scenes that beg to be simulated in scale. I wouldn’t care to do the Russian Orthodox church, but there are all those lovely details: the combination of concrete and stone walls; the general grunge; the excavation in the brick-paved street; the (almost) 3-way street turnout, but not with girder rail; the riverside scenes.
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To follow up, here is the former Moerlein Brewery with the great track door.
Also, Kenny Yard further upstream, with this great mix of Mon typical cars. Also, an older one of same location. I’ll give a nickle to anyone that can ID all the cars in pic 5.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:26 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Eric;
I have been exploring the Whitehall (or White Hall) Branch, since I was a boy when my Mom was playing Symphony gigs and took me along with her to the South Side. I still host tours every so often when I go to Pgh.
There was an unbelievable amount of freight car variety on the branch, and industry variety being served by same. Due to the tight radii of the trackage, it was generally served by a small group of SW-1’s, but they managed to get 65’ gons down there to serve a steel fabricator. Box cars, reefers, hoppers, flats, and lotsa gons.
In your timeframe, there was a great beer maker on 21st Street: Moerlein’s, who later moved on to Ohio. They had this fabulous building, later a plumbing supply company. Their spur went right into the building.
The only freight car type I never saw down there were tank cars, but I’ll bet I just missed them. There were several iron and steel works down there that would’ve received them.
I know several people that have attempted to model this area, but no one has pulled it off. Here are a small sample of photos…
Check out the variety of cars in the last photo of 30th Street Yard next to the Jones & Laughlin open hearth complex in 1953. At 21st Street Yard, note the URR gon lurking, and the Southern Automobile/Furniture car. I think it is carrying furniture to the Gimbel’s warehouse in back.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Those are great shots, Eldon.
Here’s a link to a 1923 GM Hopkins plat map that shows the buildings Eldon mentions. There seems to be a Morris & Co. operation across 21st Street from the Armour building. BlockedBlockedhttps://arcg.is/1CfrCq0
I was unaware the PRR Whitehall branch went down 21st Street. That has lots of layout potential, especially for a pre-1930s era.
BTW, if you zoom out to view more of that map, I cannot guarantee you will accomplish anything else today. Stay hydrated while you explore an earlier Pittsburgh.
Or, maybe “Have a Duke!” since the brewery was on the Whitehall branch.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Eric and all;
The attached are from my historical research files I have worked a long time on, on the Mon Valley in and upstream of Pittsburgh. These are from the South Side across the Mon from downtown Pittsburgh. The first 3 are the track side of the combined retail store and wholesale Armour Meats operation. You can still see: the Supervisor’s cupola, office and residence, the unloading dock (although the unloading rail is missing), and retail store side. This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street on which I was standing.
The last shot is the similar Swift Meats operation, right across East Carson Street. By this time, the small triangular unloading dock had been demolished, although you can see the doorway. This was served by a facing switch in the middle of 21st Street.
Cars for both originated out of 30th Street Yard in the upper South Side, dropped off by transfers from other local Pgh yards. As Eric said, they were priority switching jobs.
Old timers told me about the switching of both plants, which tied up traffic to the annoyance of locals. Many recalled the colorful reefers hosted at each, and how often it occurred.
There were similar but smaller ops upstream at Brownsville, also, and at Fairmont, IIRC on the Monongahela Railway.
When shown photos of Armour and Swift reefers, folks’ faces would light up, and they’d go, “Yeah, just like that!”.
I don’t think many realize how prevalent this was in many locales.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Attached is part of a Sanborn Fire Insurance map of Fairmont, W. Va. There’s an Armour branch house in the building complex on the left side. This was located on the 1.25 mile Fairmont Belt Line branch of the B&O. The B&O main can be seen in the lower right corner and the connection was just to the right off the map. Fairmont had a population around 20,000 people when this 1927 Sanborn map was created.
Based upon tales of former B&O yard workers, service for the Armour customer was a high priority. When a meat reefer arrived in Fairmont for this branch house, it was immediately switched to the spur.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Gang;
It was amazing to me when doing research on my area how many community meat wholesale operations there were, literally all over the place. In my area, mostly Armour and Swift, but also others. They were where the reefers arrived with sides of beef, etc., and where they processed the large pieces into smaller cuts for trucking to local butchers. Look into this, and you may be astonished at what you find. I was!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Not necessarily lost or misdirected. Swift, for example, had hundreds of routes that it sent individual meat reefers up, as often as daily. They would go to a central distribution warehouse for larger towns, and might make stops at individual depots or team tracks for smaller towns, where grocers or butchers would pick up their orders. One car might serve an entire branch that way.
So, see? You now have dispensation to run meat reefers regularly on your Kansas branch line, prototypically. Richard Townsend Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message----- The gift shop of the Kansas City Railroad Museum was housed in a Wilson meat reefer. It was my weekend “home” for several years. This part of my life has given me a fondness for meat reefers.
Unfortunately, I model a little known Santa Fe branch line that once operated in east central Kansas. Meat reefers on this 50 miles of track would have been a rare event. Most likely if one were to arrive on the line it most surely was a very lost or somehow mis-directed car.
Cheers, Bill Keene That’s the beauty of modeling part of the Erie Main through Pennsylvania. I can get most of them <grin>. Brian J. Carlson
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
I love that photo, too, Fenton! And that car is even better!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of O Fenton Wells
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:36 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Meat reefers
Thanks for sharing the photos, I love the SR Auto/Furniture boxcar photo ( # 311006). Southern had 5000 of these and this is the car Sunshine Models made. Love that photo Thanks Fenton
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:26 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
-- Fenton Wells Pinehurst NC 28374
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Re: Meat reefers
Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
Hi Nelson, I sold a number of the S8unshne meat reefers primarily to one customer, no longer with us, wjho built a skmall fleet of them back in the early to mid-1990's. Wish I had kept more myself but agree that it would be superb if Frank Hodina would redo these cars and offer them with ojne piece carbodies. Bet they'd sell like a good hot dog at a baseball game! How's that for someone who worked in Boston for five years after university but hasn't been to a professional baseball game since seeing the Braves lose the the Cardinals 3 to 4, the BOSTON Braves at Braves Field on Commonwealth Ave.to which I arrived in an MTA Type 5 trolley!! No MBTA then! Cordialy, Don Valentine
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Re: Meat reefers
Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
Hi Bill, If you mean Gene Green's reefer book I've had it for years and should also have noted that all the 40 ft. Mather cars I'm familiar with had steel ends, unlike any of the 36 ft.cars I've seen or the GA built Morrell cars. Cordially, Don Valentine
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Re: BAR 7000-series reefers
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Andy, Attached are two views of BAR 7765 taken on different visits to the Conway Scenic Railway. No guarantees the shots reflect either as-built paint or a later in-service version. Make of them what you will. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:40 PM Andy Laurent via groups.io <andy.laurent=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: Gents,
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Re: BAR 7000-series reefers
Only one I have is b/w, but the ends and sills are the same color. Perhaps black.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy Laurent via groups.io
Gents,
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BAR 7000-series reefers
Andy Laurent
Gents,
Does anyone on the list have a color photo of a BAR 7000-series 40' steel refrigerator car in the as-built orange scheme from 1951-53 (two batches)? I am curious what color the ends and sills were painted. I checked the message archives and only see discussion of the red/white/blue scheme. Henderson mentions a solid orange scheme on Page 23 of Classic Freight Cars Vol 3 as being the original, but this image suggests that they had dark ends, roofs, and sills: BAR 7015 - Bangor Daily News March 1953 Thank you, Andy Laurent Wisconsin
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