Date   

Re: Roundhouse milk car (was Milk car photo)

James Fellows
 

I modified the Roundhouse cars to more closely resemble the Whiting cars used in New England. Here are a couple of shots of my models:

http://www.freewebs.com/nynhh/milkcars.htm

There are shots on the IM and Walthers cars as well.

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Hinman
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Roundhouse milk car (was Milk car photo)





The Roundhouse milk car is based on the 1928 MDT Pfaudler car.
Drawings for this
car are available througth the NYCHS. I have a couple of the cars but
have never taken the time
to check them against the drawing. Lionel did this car in O scale
prior to Roundhouse and I heard
through rumor that both companies had access to prototype drawings.

Roger Hinman
On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

>
>
> Garth
>
> There were 40' wood milk tank cars, e.g. Abbotts (photo RMJ 10/1990)
> and GPEX/Pfaudler. Overland imported models of these (calling them
> Type A and Type B). I've never seen the new Roundhouse/Athearn car so
> I can't say if it's based on a prototype. I think Precision Scale
> imported a 40' wood milk car but I have no further info on that one
> either. Perhaps Athearn's ancient milk/express reefer was based on
> the General American 53' milk tank car (not the same as the more
> common 50' express reefer). Overland also imported this car (#3061).
>
> Tim O'Connor
>
> At 7/13/2009 12:42 PM Monday, you wrote:
> >Tim and friends,
> >
> >I don't remember ever discussing the Roundhouse/Athearn 40' wood milk
> >car on this group. This is the recent one they brought out just
> before
> >Roundhouse was taken over a few years back, not the much older 50'
> car.
> >Does this car have an actual prototype?
> >
> >I have two, which I planned to letter for a real local dairy to run
> on
> >the freelanced Virginia version of my layout. To my eye the casting
> was
> >not bad for mass production, though the brake system is rudimentary
> at
> >best (just the major components unconnected by any piping).
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >Garth G. Groff
>
>
>


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@...
 

Fred,



Many thanks for being so observant.



I have a couple of Jay williams pix with N&W 90-ton gons going through Columbus, Ohio.  No more detail.  We are guessing Toledo, Sandusky, etc. for Lake dumpings.  Wellman-Seaver Morgan Engrg photos show a lot of ocean, river, or lake dumpers . . . . near WW2 some power plant dumpers.



Most steel mills that I've visited, even today, still have raised trestles for dumping coal.  Those may be the old way and there are newer dumpers somewhere else on the sites now.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Freitas" <prrinvt@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:44:40 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Al,

      All the photos I have seen are of N&W, and VGN 2, or 3
pocket hoppers with bottom doors. No gonds are present. The
unloading was gravity, no dumpers. I wish I knew more about
the RR's that had river barges, and where the coal went. The
B&O had a modest coal to barge facility in Wheeling proper.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: "water.kresse@comcast.net" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:07:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...







Thanks folks!!!

Actually, it it is Al . . . . . water.kresse address came from the German word for water crest . . . kress.

I presume the N&W coal cars to Wheeling had to be hopper cars . . . . or did they have a rotary dumper for the N&W 90-ton/100-ton gons at the steel mill?

I've seen N&W 90-ton gons  and hoppers at the T&OE coal docks in Toledo also.  Would the NYC or Pennsy bring those cars up and back to the Maumee River.  After 1954 many went to Sandusky I believe.

Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Freitas" <prrinvt@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:32:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Walt,

        The PRR movd 100's of these car to the Wheling steel
mill in Steubenville, OH. Those more knowledgeable than I
confirmed they came from the Columbus area, and returned
the same route. Wish I had seen this in it's prime.

Fred Freitas

____________ _________ _________ __
From: "water.kresse@ comcast.net" <water.kresse@ comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:37:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Not unusual to see photos with N&W, Virginian, and L&N coal cars in the C&Os Presque Isle yard.  Also, you would see both N&W and C&O coal cars at T-T barge loading facilities in Ceredos/Kenova/ Huntington area and Armco Steel in Ashland, KY.  C&O and Virginian had interchange points at Deep Water and West Gilbert.

We are guessing that the N&W coal cars came from Columbus via the C&O to Walbridge Yard/Toledo Terminal railroad?

Al Kresse 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles R Yungkurth" <drgwrail@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources. 

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

                         Bitum Coal Rec'd        Bit Coal Orginated   Anth Coal Rec'd   Anth Coal Orgin

D&H                       61,186                          0                          26,196                76,255

DL&W                    54,314                         0                           19,473                72,828

NH                          36,324                         0                           20,734                   0

B&0                       220,532                     532,424   

CV                        163,735 (tons)               0                           96,332 (tons)          0    

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc.  they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.     

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking.  Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!      

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO                                 

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise.  Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.



Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson

      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Armand Premo
 

Thank you Chuck.Quite a sizeable amount of coal for such a small road.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Yungkurth
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...





1949 Moody's says the Rutland received 244,395 tons of anthracite and 176,529 tons of bituminous.

For some reason a few of the New England railroads reported in tonnage rather than car loadings.

Chuck Y

________________________________
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:44:19 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Chuck,What did Moody's report for the Rutland? Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Yungkurth
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources.

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

Bitum Coal Rec'd Bit Coal Orginated Anth Coal Rec'd Anth Coal Orgin

D&H 61,186 0 26,196 76,255

DL&W 54,314 0 19,473 72,828

NH 36,324 0 20,734 0

B&0 220,532 532,424

CV 163,735 (tons) 0 96,332 (tons) 0

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc. they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking. Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
> If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
> to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
> by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise. Washington/Baltimor e could
> see C&O coal cars.
>
>
>
> Al Kresse

Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson



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Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

drgwrail
 

1949 Moody's says the Rutland received 244,395 tons of anthracite and 176,529 tons of bituminous.

For some reason a few of the New England railroads reported in tonnage rather than car loadings.

Chuck Y




________________________________
From: Armand Premo <armprem2@surfglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:44:19 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...





Chuck,What did Moody's report for the Rutland? Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Yungkurth
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources.

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

Bitum Coal Rec'd Bit Coal Orginated Anth Coal Rec'd Anth Coal Orgin

D&H 61,186 0 26,196 76,255

DL&W 54,314 0 19,473 72,828

NH 36,324 0 20,734 0

B&0 220,532 532,424

CV 163,735 (tons) 0 96,332 (tons) 0

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc. they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking. Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise. Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.



Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Al,

      All the photos I have seen are of N&W, and VGN 2, or 3
pocket hoppers with bottom doors. No gonds are present. The
unloading was gravity, no dumpers. I wish I knew more about
the RR's that had river barges, and where the coal went. The
B&O had a modest coal to barge facility in Wheeling proper.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: "water.kresse@comcast.net" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:07:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...







Thanks folks!!!

Actually, it it is Al . . . . . water.kresse address came from the German word for water crest . . . kress.

I presume the N&W coal cars to Wheeling had to be hopper cars . . . . or did they have a rotary dumper for the N&W 90-ton/100-ton gons at the steel mill?

I've seen N&W 90-ton gons  and hoppers at the T&OE coal docks in Toledo also.  Would the NYC or Pennsy bring those cars up and back to the Maumee River.  After 1954 many went to Sandusky I believe.

Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Freitas" <prrinvt@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:32:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Walt,

        The PRR movd 100's of these car to the Wheling steel
mill in Steubenville, OH. Those more knowledgeable than I
confirmed they came from the Columbus area, and returned
the same route. Wish I had seen this in it's prime.

Fred Freitas

____________ _________ _________ __
From: "water.kresse@ comcast.net" <water.kresse@ comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:37:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Not unusual to see photos with N&W, Virginian, and L&N coal cars in the C&Os Presque Isle yard.  Also, you would see both N&W and C&O coal cars at T-T barge loading facilities in Ceredos/Kenova/ Huntington area and Armco Steel in Ashland, KY.  C&O and Virginian had interchange points at Deep Water and West Gilbert.

We are guessing that the N&W coal cars came from Columbus via the C&O to Walbridge Yard/Toledo Terminal railroad?

Al Kresse 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles R Yungkurth" <drgwrail@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources. 

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

                         Bitum Coal Rec'd        Bit Coal Orginated   Anth Coal Rec'd   Anth Coal Orgin

D&H                       61,186                          0                          26,196                76,255

DL&W                    54,314                         0                           19,473                72,828

NH                          36,324                         0                           20,734                   0

B&0                       220,532                     532,424   

CV                        163,735 (tons)               0                           96,332 (tons)          0    

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc.  they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.     

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking.  Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!      

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO                                 

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise.  Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.



Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson

      





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Roundhouse milk car (was Milk car photo)

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

The Roundhouse milk car is based on the 1928 MDT Pfaudler car.
Drawings for this
car are available througth the NYCHS. I have a couple of the cars but
have never taken the time
to check them against the drawing. Lionel did this car in O scale
prior to Roundhouse and I heard
through rumor that both companies had access to prototype drawings.


Roger Hinman

On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:



Garth

There were 40' wood milk tank cars, e.g. Abbotts (photo RMJ 10/1990)
and GPEX/Pfaudler. Overland imported models of these (calling them
Type A and Type B). I've never seen the new Roundhouse/Athearn car so
I can't say if it's based on a prototype. I think Precision Scale
imported a 40' wood milk car but I have no further info on that one
either. Perhaps Athearn's ancient milk/express reefer was based on
the General American 53' milk tank car (not the same as the more
common 50' express reefer). Overland also imported this car (#3061).

Tim O'Connor

At 7/13/2009 12:42 PM Monday, you wrote:
Tim and friends,

I don't remember ever discussing the Roundhouse/Athearn 40' wood milk
car on this group. This is the recent one they brought out just
before
Roundhouse was taken over a few years back, not the much older 50'
car.
Does this car have an actual prototype?

I have two, which I planned to letter for a real local dairy to run
on
the freelanced Virginia version of my layout. To my eye the casting
was
not bad for mass production, though the brake system is rudimentary
at
best (just the major components unconnected by any piping).

Kind regards,
Garth G. Groff


Re: Atlas 40' USRA rebuild

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

- The side supports in the photo are NOT trapezoidal; they're the same
supports seen on the O scale model. Do not concur with your assessment.
Ben,

I have submitted a photo (pending moderator approval) of just the car corner and bracket - it seems clear to me that this is not the same as the old T plate shown on the Atlas web site for both the N-scale and O-scale version. This detail is evident if you download the full resolution ("Original") version of the first photo I posted.


And back to your original post, no amount of wishing or hoping will turn
this model into a PRR Class X26C boxcar.


Ben Hom
I do not believe I expressed any wishing or hoping concerning the X26c. Since it is a post-1944 car, I could actually care less.

Just to clear my name, on the PRR modeling site, I posted the following:

"While the 8-panel side looks to rule out the X26c, this model seems to have been re-tooled to some extent, and might therefore be a better approximation than their previous N and O scale rebuilds.

Considering that Atlas has offered three different roofs for their 1932 ARA HO box cars, perhaps more roof choices will be forthcoming for these models.

I am still hopeful that these cars may fill a gap for several non-PRR models."

Lets see, I ruled out the X26c, and thought that the models might/may be a better approximation for rebuilds of several other railroads.

Please do not tar me with the "unwashed" label that is going around.

Even though I do not model to the high standards of this group, I do take a shower very day.

Dave Evans


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@...
 

Thanks folks!!!



Actually, it it is Al . . . . . water.kresse address came from the German word for water crest . . . kress.



I presume the N&W coal cars to Wheeling had to be hopper cars . . . . or did they have a rotary dumper for the N&W 90-ton/100-ton gons at the steel mill?



I've seen N&W 90-ton gons  and hoppers at the T&OE coal docks in Toledo also.  Would the NYC or Pennsy bring those cars up and back to the Maumee River.  After 1954 many went to Sandusky I believe.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Freitas" <prrinvt@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:32:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Walt,

        The PRR movd 100's of these car to the Wheling steel
mill in Steubenville, OH. Those more knowledgeable than I
confirmed they came from the Columbus area, and returned
the same route. Wish I had seen this in it's prime.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: "water.kresse@comcast.net" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:37:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...







Not unusual to see photos with N&W, Virginian, and L&N coal cars in the C&Os Presque Isle yard.  Also, you would see both N&W and C&O coal cars at T-T barge loading facilities in Ceredos/Kenova/ Huntington area and Armco Steel in Ashland, KY.  C&O and Virginian had interchange points at Deep Water and West Gilbert.

We are guessing that the N&W coal cars came from Columbus via the C&O to Walbridge Yard/Toledo Terminal railroad?

Al Kresse 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles R Yungkurth" <drgwrail@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources. 

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

                         Bitum Coal Rec'd        Bit Coal Orginated   Anth Coal Rec'd   Anth Coal Orgin

D&H                       61,186                          0                          26,196                76,255

DL&W                    54,314                         0                           19,473                72,828

NH                          36,324                         0                           20,734                   0

B&0                       220,532                     532,424   

CV                        163,735 (tons)               0                           96,332 (tons)          0    

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc.  they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.     

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking.  Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!      

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO                                 

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise.  Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.



Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson

      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NYC archives and the Western Reserve HS

Eric Hansmann
 

--- Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

If NYCHS has >>given<< the material to CWR University, I consider that an error of the first magnitude.
=====================


Before there is confusion, be aware the article concerned the Western Reserve Historical Society, as it related to notice posted here of the NYC Historical Society depositing their archive with the Western Reserve Historical Society.

Just about across the street from the Western Reserve Historical Society is the campus of Case Western Reserve University. As far as I know, there is no formal link between these two entities, except maybe the sidewalk. The Case libraries are noted here: http://www.case.edu/dir/libraries.html

Two places, same part of town.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
Chagrin Falls, Ohio
Starting over in a new home:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/


Re: Critiquing Pre-production Models?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman" <cornbeltroute@...> wrote:

Brian, by all means, find the last extant example of the prototype; send me its location and put me on expense account to travel out to take field measurements and photos; then come back here and tell us how it doesn't cost any more to do it right. :-) <
Dennis, hi,

Uh, you know, I didn't make the comment about cost and doing it right? (Or, maybe you're using my example to clarify a point about the other poster's comment?)
No you didn't, and yes I was.


In any of my comments about posting artwork here, I was thinking screen shots of 2D and 3D items. Or, are you saying even screen shots would be a mistake to post, too? Actual CAD files do not leave my PC.
A very wise policy. However, screen shots don't give much info to critique, kind of like the pix posted of the Atlas model that's being discussed. They show enough to let you know that something looks not quite right, without giving a hint as to what. You think anyone could give us a width over the model sills and a width over the side sheets so we can put the issue to rest? Not likely.

Dennis


final Naperville?

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I just got my flyer about the Naperville meet and Sunshine's 2010 production schedule. Right at the top, "The 16th and Final" Prototype Modelers Seminar!

Scott Chatfield


Re: NYC archives and the Western Reserve HS

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim's put me on the hot spot to respond to this, I guess.

The ELHS (including a lot of DL&W and some NYS&W material) WAS at the U of Akron. We were there for
over ten years. We were obliged to leave there because, among other things, our archive was the
most frequently accessed collection there. It seems that they did not want to have to deal with
people coming in all the time to look at stuff. Go figure.

After looking closely at at least five serious alternatives, and a couple of wishin' & hopin'
options, including Steamtown, we ultimately settled on Cleveland State University. CSU presently
hosts the ELHS, NKPH&TS, and the records for the CUT; I'm not sure if there is a "society" involved
with CUT or not, but ALL of the records are there. One could build CUT again with the records
there.

A couple of key points. ELHS did not GIVE the material to CSU. We retain ownership of it. The
only way it goes to CSU is if the ELHS folds, which in the long term is, I suppose, a possibility.
That is addressed in our agreement with CSU. Recently, however, we have been growing, in contrast
to a lot of other groups. IIRC, NKPH&TS also retained ownership of their materials. And the
Archive there is run by a rail-friendly curator.

Culling a collection may not be a bad thing. The ELHS has a number of ledger books which are of no
use, as no one can deduce what they represent. We also don't really know where they came from. We
have had them for over 15 years, with no insights in that time. They will be disposed of shortly.
There are also a substantial number of duplicate items, which we will reduce. Those items will be
offered for sale to ELHS members, first, and later perhaps to the general public. We have a program
to scan virtually all 2d items so as to make them accessible in digital form. The entire Val Map
collection of the ERIE (the original series from approximately 1914) has been scanned and will be
available as soon as we figure out a viable scheme for fulfilling orders, which is more complex than
you might think. DL&W maps are in process.

Steamtown was a very appealing option, but we could not retain ownership there. It would become
property of the Federal Government, with no assurances that it would permanently be on view and
accessible. And given that the NPS is at best ambivalent about Steamtown, with continuous budget
cuts at the NPS, IMHO, Steamtown's long term viability is less than 100% secure.


If NYCHS has >>given<< the material to CWR University, I consider that an error of the first
magnitude. Perhaps they were essentially forced to do so based on the exigencies of maintaining the
material in storage, but IMHO they should have striven for an agreement such as ours. If university
personnel are doing the culling, that is cause for concern. Contemporary archivists tend toward a
desire to record the history of the people involved in 19th and 20th century railroading, and not so
much (or at all) the hardware that made it all go. And this list is about hardware.

SGL

I vaguely recall the Erie archives (or some of it) is at
the University of Akron (?) Ohio. Maybe some NYC fans in the
Cleveland area could see about relocating the NYC archives?

At 7/13/2009 02:22 PM Monday, you wrote:
Eric Hansmann wrote:
A wider Google search brought news of layoffs there. This story from
two weeks ago:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/124643711041580.xml&;coll=2
<http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/124643711041580.xml&;coll=2>

The scary part of the Plain Dealer story is the line, ". . . the
society is also culling parts of its vast collection . . ." and we
have to hope that the railroad parts are not considered expendable.
Additional point: many railroad historical societies, in
donating materials to some archive, have been careful to arrange a
"right of first refusal" in case said archive decides to de-access all
or part of the material they donated. Absent this, the archive is free
to do what it likes with the material, once donated. Hopefully the
NYCHS is among those who took this prudent step.

Tony Thompson







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Re: NYC archives and the Western Reserve HS

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

The ELHS archives as well as the NKPHTS archives are at Cleveland State
University. Some EL stuff still has to be moved.
Brian Carlson


On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:30:40 -0400, Tim O'Connor wrote

I vaguely recall the Erie archives (or some of it) is at
the University of Akron (?) Ohio. Maybe some NYC fans in the
Cleveland area could see about relocating the NYC archives?


Re: Atlas 40' USRA rebuild

Larry Kline
 

The photo I posted in the photos section, from the 1937 CBCyc p460, shows 129534. The photo of 128436 is from RMC, 9-89, p56. The photo of 129529 is from MRG, 6-88, p17. None of these cars is listed in exceptions notes (notes G, H, RR or L in the 4-51 ORER, pp 298-299). Therefore I believe that all three cars are in the group of 2265 cars (of 2333 total) with a 9ft 0in IH.

I agree that the photo of 129529 looks shorter. However the end proportions look the same to me.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


SLSF had more than one type of rebuild .. the 1950 ORER lumps
together 127000-130499 with several subgroups -- interior heights
8'6", 8'11", 9'0", 10'0". For example, Larry sent me two photos
SLSF 128436 and SLSF 129529. The latter car appears to me to be
much shorter in height.


Re: Atlas 40' USRA rebuild

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Dave Evans wrote:
"I am posting a photo of the Atlas test shot taken Friday. Looks like the
tooling has been upgraded, and it seems to address several of the criticisms
leveled below:

- Riveted sides, 8 panel
- Sides do appear to stand proud of both the side sill and ends (notice the
shadow of the bottom edge of the side on the side sill - it is not flush.
- Appears to be "original" roof width, with a Z structure to extend out to
the new sides. The PMcK&Y O scale model's roof actually over-hanged the
sides. The HO model is very different.
- Trapezoidal side supports - the T-plate is gone.

Looks like the criticisms were considered and tooling revised. Perhaps
someone from this august group will compliment Atlas.

Reading this thread is not very impressive, especially since no one had seen
the model. Lighten up guys."


Sorry Dave, but I'm standing by my comments. I've uploaded a side-by-side
comparison of the Atlas HO model with prototype photos of the SL-SF and C&WC
boxcars to the same file as the model photo (pending moderator approval).
To address your comments above:
- 8 panel riveted sides was NOT a criticism except where the decorated
models purported to represent a car rebuilt with 10-panel sides (ATSF, PRR).
- The sides of the model are improved over the earlier O scale model, but
the side sill and end insets are still not pronounced enough. The
side-by-side makes that abundantly clear.
- The roof is improved over the O scale model and is a better representation
for the SL-SF and ACL/C&WC prototypes; however,
- The side supports in the photo are NOT trapezoidal; they're the same
supports seen on the O scale model. Do not concur with your assessment.
- On the plus side, the model does have a fishbelly underframe, which better
represents the SL-SF and ACL/C&WC prototypes.

This model still doesn't accurately represent the SL-SF or ACL/C&WC
prototypes - the side sills will need to be replaced. I'm not too sure that
it's too terribly good a value to buy a model at the same price point as the
much better executed 1932 ARA steel boxcar models knowing that I have to do
some substantial surgery to the model.

And back to your original post, no amount of wishing or hoping will turn
this model into a PRR Class X26C boxcar.


Ben Hom


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Walt,

        The PRR movd 100's of these car to the Wheling steel
mill in Steubenville, OH. Those more knowledgeable than I
confirmed they came from the Columbus area, and returned
the same route. Wish I had seen this in it's prime.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: "water.kresse@comcast.net" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:37:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...







Not unusual to see photos with N&W, Virginian, and L&N coal cars in the C&Os Presque Isle yard.  Also, you would see both N&W and C&O coal cars at T-T barge loading facilities in Ceredos/Kenova/ Huntington area and Armco Steel in Ashland, KY.  C&O and Virginian had interchange points at Deep Water and West Gilbert.

We are guessing that the N&W coal cars came from Columbus via the C&O to Walbridge Yard/Toledo Terminal railroad?

Al Kresse 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles R Yungkurth" <drgwrail@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources. 

Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.

Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:

                         Bitum Coal Rec'd        Bit Coal Orginated   Anth Coal Rec'd   Anth Coal Orgin

D&H                       61,186                          0                          26,196                76,255

DL&W                    54,314                         0                           19,473                72,828

NH                          36,324                         0                           20,734                   0

B&0                       220,532                     532,424   

CV                        163,735 (tons)               0                           96,332 (tons)          0    

It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc.  they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.

Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.     

This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking.  Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!      

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO                                 

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise.  Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.



Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.

Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.

All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.

Dave Nelson

      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NYC archives and the Western Reserve HS

Tim O'Connor
 

I vaguely recall the Erie archives (or some of it) is at
the University of Akron (?) Ohio. Maybe some NYC fans in the
Cleveland area could see about relocating the NYC archives?

At 7/13/2009 02:22 PM Monday, you wrote:
Eric Hansmann wrote:
A wider Google search brought news of layoffs there. This story from
two weeks ago:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/124643711041580.xml&;coll=2
The scary part of the Plain Dealer story is the line, ". . . the
society is also culling parts of its vast collection . . ." and we
have to hope that the railroad parts are not considered expendable.
Additional point: many railroad historical societies, in
donating materials to some archive, have been careful to arrange a
"right of first refusal" in case said archive decides to de-access all
or part of the material they donated. Absent this, the archive is free
to do what it likes with the material, once donated. Hopefully the
NYCHS is among those who took this prudent step.

Tony Thompson


Re: Critiquing Pre-production Models?

Brian Chapman <cornbeltroute@...>
 

Brian, by all means, find the last extant example of the prototype; send me its location and put me on expense account to travel out to take field measurements and photos; then come back here and tell us how it doesn't cost any more to do it right. :-) <
Dennis, hi,

Uh, you know, I didn't make the comment about cost and doing it right? (Or, maybe you're using my example to clarify a point about the other poster's comment?)

Terrific post because of all the insight. Gained from lots of experience, I'm sure. Looking through a 1984 Mainline Modeler magazine last night, I believe I came across an ad for your introductory product.

In any of my comments about posting artwork here, I was thinking screen shots of 2D and 3D items. Or, are you saying even screen shots would be a mistake to post, too? Actual CAD files do not leave my PC.

Thanks much, Brian

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Tim,

        I do not have stats for your question. I would like to
mention that 1000's of B&O cars were moved by PRR.
These were connected in Md, WVa,PA, and OH.
Trains of them went to the Reading near Harrisburg,PA
Several train loads a day were moved on the PRR on the
Sandusky, OH branch to the lake port. So as
Chuck Youngkuth aptly put it : there is a whole new
book to be written. 
        While searching for details of the Ohio River area
I found that B&O EM-1's with aux tenders would
bring 100 car coal trains into Benwood, WVa. One
would be split into local and west bound, the next was
forwarded to Pittsburgh. Since this is not my main focus
I can only sugest this is a place to search out for info.

Fred Freitas




________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:03:43 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...





Chuck

Wow, I find it very interesting that almost 30% of B&O's
coal traffic originated offline. So much for the theory of
"captive" cars...

Do you have any data for coal delivered to connections?

Tim O'Connor

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
Bitum Coal Rec'd Bit Coal Originated Anth Coal Rec'd Anth Coal Originated

D&H 61,186 0 26,196 76,255
DL&W 54,314 0 19,473 72,828
NH 36,324 0 20,734 0
B&0 220,532 532,424 - 0
CV 163,735 (tons) 0 96,332 (tons) 0




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NYC archives and the Western Reserve HS

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Eric Hansmann wrote:
A wider Google search brought news of layoffs there. This story from two weeks ago:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/124643711041580.xml&;coll=2
The scary part of the Plain Dealer story is the line, ". . . the society is also culling parts of its vast collection . . ." and we have to hope that the railroad parts are not considered expendable.
Additional point: many railroad historical societies, in donating materials to some archive, have been careful to arrange a "right of first refusal" in case said archive decides to de-access all or part of the material they donated. Absent this, the archive is free to do what it likes with the material, once donated. Hopefully the NYCHS is among those who took this prudent step.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

97561 - 97580 of 180933