Date   

Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 03:05 PM, Tom Madden wrote:
I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports.
Now that we have some folks with real hands-on experience in this discussion, can anyone tell me why SLA parts are oriented at an angle? Is it an attempt to change the angle of the overhangs so they don't need supports, or simply to provide more room for the supports?

Back to Tom's Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic parts, is this a fused deposition process? One would think that some angular overhang would be possible, where each layer would project out less than half the width of the filament being deposited, and therefore be self supporting, like the overhanging bricks in fancy brickwork. If the underside of those handrail brackets would have projected from the vertical surface at a 45 deg. angle, could they have been built without the wax support and it's attendant track?

Dennis Storzek


Re: Turtle Load

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 05:06 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
John, not a violation.

The AAR districts that border CANADA include Minnesota and Pennsylvania.
But back in the steam era there was also the issue of tariffs on the foreign built equipment. However, I note the sign on this Grand Trunk Ry. car says the load is going via CN Ry. the Grand Trunk's new owner. So this is actually a line haul on a Canadian railway. My best guess is that a homeward bound Canadian empty was used since it returned the car to Canada under load, which was allowable under the car service rules. The fact that the car came back into the US at the other end of its journey is a separate issue.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Turtle Load

Tim O'Connor
 


John, not a violation.

The AAR districts that border CANADA include Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

Therefore any CN or CP freight car could be routed through the United States between
those two states (or to New England, or to Montana or Washington state etc etc) because
those districts are ADJACENT to the territorial districts of CN and CP. The rules were
flexible enough that freight cars could leave home rails for years at a time - and many
did!

P.S. The rules are even MORE flexible today! Next load, ANY road is how it works now.




On 12/20/2019 7:34 PM, John Riddell wrote:

A Canadian reefer taking a load from MN to PA. Isn’t that a violation of the rules ?

 

John Riddell



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Turtle Load

ken chapin
 

Not if it came off Soo line railroad.
Ken
--
Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 12/20/19, 6:34 PM John Riddell <riddellj@...> wrote:

A Canadian reefer taking a load from MN to PA. Isn’t that a violation of the rules ?

 

John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: ATSF AAR 40’ Box Panels ?

Allan Smith
 

I have been looking at photos of the ATSF Boxcar series with the twelve panel sides and am trying to determine the dimensions of the one wide panel and the five narrow panels on each side of the door. Does anyone have a drawing of this series giving those dimensions? my calculations Scaled from blown up photos, the car is 40'6" or 486", so I come up with 3-44-32-32-32-32-32-72-32-32-32-32-44-3, 3" for the ends 72" for the door. I have conductors lists from 1954 on the Sierra Railroad and there are 15 cars from the 12 panel series Bx-48 Bx-50 Bx-51 Bx-53 Bx-60 Bx-62 Bx-63 on the list. I am trying to build the cars from this list for my railroad and would like to be as accurate as possible. If anyone has this info it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You 

Al Smith
Sonora CA
"

On Thursday, December 19, 2019, 06:31:02 AM PST, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Thanks for sharing Ted
Fenton 


On Dec 19, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Ted Culotta <speedwitchmedia@...> wrote:


Re: Turtle Load

John Riddell
 

A Canadian reefer taking a load from MN to PA. Isn’t that a violation of the rules ?

 

John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Grace Tank Car

Jack Mullen
 

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 10:09 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Examine the enclosed photo and compare GRYX 168 to AESX 576.
Umm, AESX 576 doesn't appear to be a Type 27, (perhaps Pressed Steel Car Co ?), so what is the comparison supposed to demonstrate ?
What features do you see in the GRYX underframe that make it impossible to be a type 27?

Jack Mullen


Re: [MFCL] [RealSTMFC] Grace Tank Car

Charlie Vlk
 

All-
It looks like the underframe, at least the ends, has the characteristics of a Chicago Steel Car Company product. See the attached jpg.
John Grace had connections with that company and when they exited the tank car building business bought the inventory of parts on hand and all the patterns, fixtures, etc.. necessary to continue selling maintenance parts for cars built by the Chicago Steel Car Company.
Charlie Vlk


Re: [MFCL] [RealSTMFC] Grace Tank Car

Charlie Vlk
 

I had the good fortune to make the acquaintance of Stanley D. Grace, Jr. the last family owner of Grace Tank Car Lines and grandson of the founder, John H. Grace. He was a Model Railroader and in later years had a coffee table N Scale railroad.
I interviewed Stan at his home and was able to view the records of the company that he had preserved.

Most of the multi-compartment cars were in the GRYX 800 series; at least that is the evidence from the photos in Stan’s album.
GRYX 805, the car Stan donated to the B&O museum is probably typical of the genealogy of many of the cars in the Grace fleet. According to Stan, “It was built in 1920 as a 12,000 gallon fuel oil car for the T&NO. Gus Schott of El Dorado, Arkansas bought the tank and built his own underframe for it. Grace bought the car and made a two compartment car out of it. The original tank was double riveted which was unusual for a car of its age….and it leaked like a sieve! The car was taken to the Warren Tank Car Company in Warren, Pennsylvania where every rivet was welded inside and out, and from that point on the car was leakproof! The B&O Museum loves the car because they can use it to store two different grades of diesel oil.”

I made a presentation on the Grace Tank Car Lines at the Lisle Prototype Modelers Meet in 2009 and Stan was in attendance for one of the sessions. If anyone has questions about the company I would be glad to share any further information I have.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Grace Tank Car

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

Why do you think AESX 756 is an AC&F type 27?  What features in that photo are you basing that on? Off the cuff I would have said AESX 756  was a UTL product…

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Dec 20, 2019, at 12:09 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


There is no possibility the underframe on the GRYX 168 is an ACF Type 27.

Examine the enclosed photo and compare GRYX 168 to AESX 576.

And Darrall, yes, the Intermountain model represents a Type 27.


On 12/20/2019 7:13 AM, bn2204 via Groups.Io wrote:
Thanks David,

As a modeler modeling an era where stub sill tank cars are the norm, I'm not up to speed regarding the nomenclatures for the different type of frames associated with older tank cars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Type 27 underframe the underframe that comes with the Intermountain 8,000g/10,000g tank car kits?

Thanks,

Darrall Swift  - Lagrange,  Ohio


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*



<image.png>


Re: [MFCL] [RealSTMFC] Grace Tank Car

Tangent Scale Models
 

Tim,

The AESX car you posted is not an ACF build.  It is a Pressed Steel Car Company build.

The GRYX car is an ACF build, "type 27" underframe of early 1940s construction

Best wishes,

David Lehlbach
www.tangentscalemodels.com
PO Box 6514
Asheville NC 28816 USA
828-279-6106



On Friday, December 20, 2019, 1:09:43 PM EST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



There is no possibility the underframe on the GRYX 168 is an ACF Type 27.

Examine the enclosed photo and compare GRYX 168 to AESX 576.

And Darrall, yes, the Intermountain model represents a Type 27.


On 12/20/2019 7:13 AM, bn2204 via Groups.Io wrote:
> Thanks David,
>
> As a modeler modeling an era where stub sill tank cars are the norm,
> I'm not up to speed regarding the nomenclatures for the different type
> of frames associated with older tank cars. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but isn't the Type 27 underframe the underframe that comes with the
> Intermountain 8,000g/10,000g tank car kits?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Darrall Swift  - Lagrange,  Ohio


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts




Re: Turtle Load

Lester Breuer
 

Bob when I was in my teen years I and several friends would hunt river bottoms in the Minnesota River Valley along the Minnesota River in the winter where frozen water was very shallow allowing us to see large snapper turtles thru the ice.   We would catch them and sell them to local restaurants for their use with one being soup.  My guess this is a large shipment of snapping turtles for sale to restaurants there.
Lester Breuer


Prototype Rails Dining Guide

Bill Welch
 

Attached is the latest edition of the Dining Guide for the CCB area. Please contact me offline (fgexbill(at)tampabay.rr.com) with suggested additions and short description of the venue. A web link would be helpful if possible.

Bill Welch


Re: Grace Tank Car

Tim O'Connor
 

There is no possibility the underframe on the GRYX 168 is an ACF Type 27.

Examine the enclosed photo and compare GRYX 168 to AESX 576.

And Darrall, yes, the Intermountain model represents a Type 27.

On 12/20/2019 7:13 AM, bn2204 via Groups.Io wrote:
Thanks David,

As a modeler modeling an era where stub sill tank cars are the norm, I'm not up to speed regarding the nomenclatures for the different type of frames associated with older tank cars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Type 27 underframe the underframe that comes with the Intermountain 8,000g/10,000g tank car kits?

Thanks,

Darrall Swift  - Lagrange,  Ohio
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: [External] [RealSTMFC] Turtle Load

Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Turtle soup and the shells for jewelry.

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Friday, December 20, 2019, 11:54:21 AM CST, naptownprr <jhunter@...> wrote:


They were probably made into soup -- a delicacy of the time!


Jim Hunter


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 12:31 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [External] [RealSTMFC] Turtle Load
 
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.

Turtle Load

This is a photo from the Douglas County (MN) Historical Society. I wonder what was done with the turtles in Philadelphia?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: [External] [RealSTMFC] Turtle Load

naptownprr
 

They were probably made into soup -- a delicacy of the time!


Jim Hunter


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 12:31 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [External] [RealSTMFC] Turtle Load
 
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.

Turtle Load

This is a photo from the Douglas County (MN) Historical Society. I wonder what was done with the turtles in Philadelphia?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Turtle Load

Jon Miller
 

On 12/20/2019 9:31 AM, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io wrote:
I wonder what was done with the turtles in Philadelphia?

     Turtle soup?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Turtle Load

Bob Chaparro
 

Turtle Load

This is a photo from the Douglas County (MN) Historical Society. I wonder what was done with the turtles in Philadelphia?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

Bill Lugg
 

I gave up on Shapeways a while ago, mostly due to their exorbitant pricing.  Try https://print.all3dp.com/ the next time you need some printing done.  I found the results to be quite satisfactory and the prices to be about a third of what Shapeways was asking for the parts I needed printed.  Admittedly, my prints were not nearly to the level of precision these are, but it might be worth a try.  I'm looking at them for bolsters and end beams for a narrow gauge tender I'm working on.  they will be printed in casting wax and cast in brass. the total cost will be about $45 for all four parts.

HTH
Bill Lugg

On 12/20/19 7:59 AM, dalemuir2@... wrote:

Re: Shapeways issues.

I have had inconsistent results from Shapeways printing long (205mm) bridge girder parts. Parts I received were off by 1mm or more. This makes it impossible to assemble parts that must have consistent dimensions. Imagine printing car sides, roof, and floor with convenient locating pins only to discover that nothing fits.

The following illustrates the issues.

The model is a seven track underpass with two independent single track bridges and a five track bridge.

There are a total of six full height girders and four "split" girders consisting of a top and bottom part. The floor is sandwiched between the top and bottom part.

Total part count is 14. (Split girders are two parts each.)

One of the four split girder top parts was about 1mm too short, so the locating pins didn't line up.

All four split girder bottom parts were useable.

IMG_1733_SplitGirder_2019_10_06_19_27_OK_GoodExample

IMG_1732_SplitGirder_2019_10_06_19_27_OK_tooShort

Two of the six full girders were about 1mm too short.

In summary, 3 of 14 parts (about 21%) were unusable. All 3 unusable parts were duplicates (same 3D model) of parts that came out near perfect.

Anyone with a little knowledge of process control would recognize immediately that Shapeways' process is out of control.

Shapeways just dismissed the issue claiming that the parts meet their specifications for Fine Detail Plastic. They won't refund or re-print.

I had to re-order (and pay for) the defective part to finish the project. The re-ordered parts were about 0.5mm too short, but I was able to make them work.

Because of this, I can't add this model to my Shapeways store.

The following is an excerpt from an email exchange I had with the Shapeways Quality Control person.

Begin quote from Shapeways QC person

The print resolutions are as follows:

Smooth = 29 micron
Smoothest = 16 micron

Indeed, that ±0.3- 0.7 range is for models that are 100mm or shorter.  The accuracy range can be a bit greater for models larger than 100mm.  I do understand you are looking for increased accuracy, however, the process does not allow for this.

We are hoping that as the technology and printer abilities increase, we will be able to provide tighter tolerances in the future but this is currently not the case and not something we can guarantee.  I understand this is disappointing and I'm sorry about that. Our production team is constantly working to improve our processes but this is currently the best accuracy range we can promise.

While certain processes do involve batch printing, this works a bit different with models printed in Fine Detail plastic as there is no stacking or "packing into a printer" involved. We explain the process on our Fine Detail Plastic materials page <https://www.shapeways.com/materials/fine-detail-plastic>:

End quote

To me, the frustrating part is that Shapeways can produce accurate parts, but they won't. They seem to be more interested in cranking out parts a cheaply as possible.

Dale Muir

Geneva, IL

*From:*main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Tom Madden via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:05 PM
*To:* main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
*Subject:* [RealSTMFC] 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

[Edited Message Follows]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 01:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Thanks Tom, very informative. This proves to me that Shapeways is just maxed out and still found wanting. It's no longer an issue of resolution, but designing around the "wax tracks". It seems the SLA process is better suited to our parts. Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.

I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports. Shapeways had a similar process, Hi Definition Acrylate,  but they dropped it because  their trimmers lacked the skill to trim such parts quickly and without damage. In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. For a while they offered HDA parts untrimmed but they've dropped that as well.

If you _can_ design around the wax track problem the 3D Systems' multi-jet modeling process (which Shapeways calls Fine Detail Plastic) is faster and much less expensive than any SLA. For large parts, like passenger car sides, the Form 2 and other small SLA printers won't work at all. Here are three images (front, back and detail) of a pair of car sides I got from Shapeways on Monday. These are images of passenger car parts, but they're shown for the technique and not the product. On the PCL and some other forums any discussion would involve the parts and not how they were made. I'm not ready for that discussion yet!
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-1.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-2.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-3.jpg

Those are flat with no sidewall detail. Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic process (16 micron layers) shows minimal stairstepping on sloped surfaces. That encouraged me to design some Pullman blind and solarium ends with full rivet detail on the end sill and in the upper ends. Both regions are sloped. I also included the handrail mounting flanges and bolts on the door frame, a vertical surface on the print.
Here's a photo showing four different ends They're castings, but the masters were printed:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg

Here's what the sidewall detail is supposed to look like:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsD.JPG

And what it does look like: (Best I could do without a macro lens.)
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsG.JPG

There is a wax track below the detail, but in this case it's not objectionable. Since it's the only such detail in the area, and the wax track is short and hidden under the handrail, it's not at all noticeable. You need to pick your battles.

Tom Madden


Re: 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

dalemuir2@...
 

Re: Shapeways issues.

 

I have had inconsistent results from Shapeways printing long (205mm) bridge girder parts. Parts I received were off by 1mm or more. This makes it impossible to assemble parts that must have consistent dimensions. Imagine printing car sides, roof, and floor with convenient locating pins only to discover that nothing fits.

 

The following illustrates the issues.

 

The model is a seven track underpass with two independent single track bridges and a five track bridge.

There are a total of six full height girders and four "split" girders consisting of a top and bottom part. The floor is sandwiched between the top and bottom part.

Total part count is 14. (Split girders are two parts each.)

 

 

One of the four split girder top parts was about 1mm too short, so the locating pins didn't line up.

All  four split girder bottom parts were useable.

 

 

Two of the six full girders were about 1mm too short.

 

 

In summary, 3 of 14 parts (about 21%) were unusable. All 3 unusable parts were duplicates (same 3D model) of parts that came out near perfect.

Anyone with a little knowledge of process control would recognize immediately that Shapeways' process is out of control.

Shapeways just dismissed the issue claiming that the parts meet their specifications for Fine Detail Plastic. They won't refund or re-print.

 

I had to re-order (and pay for) the defective part to finish the project. The re-ordered parts were about 0.5mm too short, but I was able to make them work.

 

Because of this, I can't add this model to my Shapeways store.

 

The following is an excerpt from an email exchange I had with the Shapeways Quality Control person.

 

Begin quote from Shapeways QC person

The print resolutions are as follows: 

Smooth = 29 micron
Smoothest = 16 micron

Indeed, that ±0.3- 0.7 range is for models that are 100mm or shorter.  The accuracy range can be a bit greater for models larger than 100mm.  I do understand you are looking for increased accuracy, however, the process does not allow for this. 

We are hoping that as the technology and printer abilities increase, we will be able to provide tighter tolerances in the future but this is currently not the case and not something we can guarantee.  I understand this is disappointing and I'm sorry about that. Our production team is constantly working to improve our processes but this is currently the best accuracy range we can promise.

While certain processes do involve batch printing, this works a bit different with models printed in Fine Detail plastic as there is no stacking or "packing into a printer" involved. We explain the process on our Fine Detail Plastic materials page:

End quote

 

To me, the frustrating part is that Shapeways can produce accurate parts, but they won't. They seem to be more interested in cranking out parts a cheaply as possible.

 

Dale Muir

Geneva, IL

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Madden via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] 3D printing (Was: New early P&R steel.....)

 

[Edited Message Follows]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 01:50 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Thanks Tom, very informative. This proves to me that Shapeways is just maxed out and still found wanting. It's no longer an issue of resolution, but designing around the "wax tracks". It seems the SLA process is better suited to our parts. Compare these pix to the pix of the D&RGW coal hopper Eric presented a week or so ago.

I believe Corey Bonsall, who does the D&RGW and Utah Coal Route gons, uses a Form 2 "upside down" SLA printer where the part is built from the bottom up as it's lifted, layer by layer, out of the resin. For best results parts need to be oriented at an angle and parts of any complexity require a literal forest of supports. Shapeways had a similar process, Hi Definition Acrylate,  but they dropped it because  their trimmers lacked the skill to trim such parts quickly and without damage. In this field you can't have low prices, low wages and high skill levels across the board. For a while they offered HDA parts untrimmed but they've dropped that as well.

If you _can_ design around the wax track problem the 3D Systems' multi-jet modeling process (which Shapeways calls Fine Detail Plastic) is faster and much less expensive than any SLA. For large parts, like passenger car sides, the Form 2 and other small SLA printers won't work at all. Here are three images (front, back and detail) of a pair of car sides I got from Shapeways on Monday. These are images of passenger car parts, but they're shown for the technique and not the product. On the PCL and some other forums any discussion would involve the parts and not how they were made. I'm not ready for that discussion yet!
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-1.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-2.jpg
http://www.pullmanproject.com/3989A-3.jpg

Those are flat with no sidewall detail. Shapeways Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic process (16 micron layers) shows minimal stairstepping on sloped surfaces. That encouraged me to design some Pullman blind and solarium ends with full rivet detail on the end sill and in the upper ends. Both regions are sloped. I also included the handrail mounting flanges and bolts on the door frame, a vertical surface on the print. 
Here's a photo showing four different ends They're castings, but the masters were printed:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsC.jpg

Here's what the sidewall detail is supposed to look like:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsD.JPG

And what it does look like: (Best I could do without a macro lens.)
http://www.pullmanproject.com/EndsG.JPG

There is a wax track below the detail, but in this case it's not objectionable. Since it's the only such detail in the area, and the wax track is short and hidden under the handrail, it's not at all noticeable. You need to pick your battles.

Tom Madden