Date   
Re: Car cards, waybills [was: Freight Car Distribution]

Charlie Vlk
 

Tony-

At the risk of straying too far into the Operations Sig group and away from the Freight Cars themselves with this
thread, I think that it is worthwhile here unless STMFC is about making random interesting models and not intending
to operate them in context on a Model Railroad....

The "operation" of a Model Railroad is a compromise at best ... we try to distill an entire corporation's worth of employees down
to a group of people, most of whom want to run trains. I appreciate the notion of making Waybills more like the prototype, but
for a large home railroad operated frequently, the car distribution paperwork can cause the layout owner a lot of work in between
sessions.... time that could be spent on building and maintaining the railroad and its equipment.

I'm all for schemes that make the mix and use of cars "right". I like the texture that waybill information gives to the operators, even
though old heads will tell you the crews could care less about the details of a car beyond where to pick it up and where to drop it.

I too have looked at the baseball card protectors for waybills but the article really just used them as a substitute for the folded card pocket.
My railroad is still in spline and benchwork, so my thoughts are pretty theoretical even though I operate on a bunch of different railroads using
mostly conventional Old Line Graphics -type cards. Currently my thinking is centered on a two sided printed heavy stock master waybill for
each car with multiple (up to eight?) pickup/setout "sceanarios" on it.... with (in deference to my HO friends that will operate on my N Scale
railroad) a photo of the car on at least one side of the card. As I stated in my earlier post, to achieve the "flip" function that the Waybill Pocket
gives, the Conductor would date the delivery at the time the car is dropped. When the waybill is all used up a new one can be printed or the
pencil marks erased to start the cycle over again.

My railroad doesn't require any routing instructions..... the train descriptions give the crews the info they need to get cars to their destinations...
and there are not any overall "sessions" as far as the cars are concerned... every car moves on its own script, allowing for adjustments to be made
for light/heavy operator turnout. This may result in imbalances in car distribution, but these can be handled by the Traffic Manager by ordering
extras or annulling trains.

Thinking about what cars one should have provides some framework to which cars to model..... even for a fictional railroad like mine which is set in
a combination of M&StL, CGW, CB&Q, and P&E territory as it runs from Indianapolis to Minneapolis. The "flavor" of the traffic of those roads is a
pattern for me to consider in my choice of cars to aquaire/kitbash/build.

Charlie Vlk

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Gene--

IMHO, there is no one STMFC distribution model that can be universally
applied by all STMFC modellers. Each has its own merits. But it's
said that when the only tool that one has is a hammer, every problem
becomes a nail.

STMFC layout owners could use primary sources (i.e. switch lists,
wheel reports) for car distribution--if they were available. Of
course, for most this is not the case. But to rely on any one model
alone is fraught with peril. I like the N-G (seems to be mostly
overhead traffic on a transcon piece of the UPRR) data, but can I
really use it in MY STMFC layout roster? I'm more inclined to
consider (and favour the study of to determine my STMFC roster) what
was shipped/received/overhead traffic in my prototype line segment.

And this discussion makes me realise that those GA, D&H, and B&M
boxcars are not going to be seen on my 1956 Eastern Ontario layout too
often!

Steve Lucasv

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

It seems to me that the various mathematical or statistical schemes
have one starting in the wrong place.

On most model railroads there are loads that originate on the modeled
portion, loads that have a destination on the modeled portion and loads
that simply pass through the scene. (Jack Burgess' Yosemite Valley and
similar RRs that only connect with the rest of the world at one point
would not have that latter category, I suppose.)

First, I think, one should determine what gets shipped from or
delivered to points on the modeled portion. Those loads will
necessarily suggest, and in some cases demand, a certain type of car.
Next determine how much is shipped or received. Now you can determine
the number of the various types of cars needed.

Now one has the information needed to start using a mathematical or
statistical scheme ONLY IF better information is not available.

Gene Green

Re: Retail gas stations of the 1950's

jrwark <jrwark@...>
 

Very timely, albeit possibly off-topic, question. Just a couple of
days ago I went to the state archives and library and yours was one of
the questions I researched.

In addition to Sanborn maps and phone books as already mentioned, I
also found good information in city/town directories. For larger
cities, these are usually published by Polk during the STMFC era. In
Tennessee, there were also directories published by other sources for
smaller cities/large towns. I wasn't able to find info on every town
I was interested in, but I was able to find enough information to
confirm which of the oil companies had wholesale distribution and
retail service station operations in the region.

Another source was centennial and sesquicentennial anniversary
publications. I found these for almost every town or county I was
interested in. These typically have advertisements for local
businesses and photos of business areas. In several cases there were
pictures of service stations and/or bulk plants that will be helpful
in modeling. In at least one case, there was confirmation of a track
routing that confirmed a detail from the Sanborn map that I had been
skeptical of. Unfortunately, no freight car pictures. Bummer.

If you're not close to your state archives, then most libraries have
at least some old phone books and directories. Local/county museums
and historical societies often do as well.

John Wark

Car cards, waybills [was: Freight Car Distribution]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
To build on Gene's observation, this is one of the objections I have to the Car Card Pocket / Waybill system . . . many don't ever leave the pocket and at best the car cycles through the four available waybills).
I'd agree that when this happens mindlessly, it's a bad feature, but there ARE leased or assigned cars which DO cycle back and forth as loads and empties. Many tank cars are in this category, as are cars like auto parts cars. So any car card system needs a way to reproduce repetitious movements as well as the "random" ones which we can associate with free-running cars like XM box cars, and to some extent gondolas and flat cars.

It seems to me that with computers it isn't necessary to have the additional bulk of the car card pocket.... the "scripts" ... waybills .... and the car information can be printed and cut an pasted together on one card. The only problem is how to indicate the completion of a waybill on a card that has several on it (including delivery of empty cars to an online shipper for loading or forwarding to the car's owner in compliance (or total violation of) the interchange rules...
The prototype waybill, of course, contains the car reporting mark and number. In the model world we are trying to avoid having a waybill for every COMBINATION of car and cargo, which is how we got to car cards with separate waybill-like documents.
An interesting idea is to use a transparent sleeve as the "car card," and insert waybills into it. In this way, more than one waybill can be present, and they are simply cycled in the "stack" inside the sleeve; they can include "empty car routing cards," which the prototype used to move empties. This was nicely described by Bill Neale in the February 2009 MR.
But Neale uses an "old fashioned" model waybill, nothing much like a real one. There is an effort afoot, with a group of operators including Tony Koester and Dan Holbrook, to make the waybills much more like miniatures of the prototype ones. This is still evolving, and I look forward to hearing more about it as it matures. There was a nice talk about this adaptation of the prototype waybill at Cocoa Beach this year, from a speaker named Pamperin (if I recall the name correctly).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Retail gas stations of the 1950's

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Wow! A bunch of responses quickly. I haven't been able to find Sanborn maps
for Warren Pa. Corry Pa, Youngsville, Titusville Pa. etc yet.
If these response get far from steam era freight cars please respond to me
off list at brian@... I don't want to incur the wrath of our
esteemed moderator. However, his eyes are probably a little glazed over
right now from rehashing his views on freight car distribution, so we should
be ok. :-)
Brian
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:12:34 -0500, Allen Cain wrote

Brian,

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Jack Burgess
 

Tim wrote:
Jack was the zinc inbound, or outbound? If outbound, do
you know where it went? I suppose if inbound in a Milwaukee
gondola then it could have come from Idaho... and if it
was inbound, what industry used it?

Tim O'
It was outbound from Merced Falls/the YV and was considered essential to the
war effort...they shipped 115 carloads in the first months of 1944. I don't
know where it went. Switch lists from August 1945 show gondolas from the
C&O, D&RGW, Erie, IC, PMcK&Y, and SP being used for this purpose. But it is
outside my modeling year so I had to get rid of my gondolas, whether they
were from an appropriate railroad or not...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Re: Retail gas stations of the 1950's

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Brian,



I quick search on Amazon came up with these three that looked like pretty
good places to start:



http://www.amazon.com/American-Gas-Station-Folklore-Stations/dp/0760306494/r
ef=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Stations-Coast-Michael-Karl-Witzel/dp/0760307407/ref=p
d_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Station-America-Creating-American-Landscape/dp/0801847
230/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233857309&sr=8-2



Allen Cain

Re: Shell Tamk Car Photos

brianehni <behni@...>
 

SCCX photo located here:
http://www.trainweb.org/chris/lakewhatcom.html

Brian Ehni

--- In STMFC@..., "railsnw1" <railsnw@...> wrote:

All,

I'm trying to locate photos of Shell Oil Co. tank cars, in particular
cars lettered SCCX, SCMX, and SNHX. These would be cars in the steam
era. Any leads on sources would be appreciated.

Also has anyone tried to get tank car information from Shell? I notice
they have a museum in Houston.

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens

Re: Retail gas stations of the 1950's

Charlie Duckworth <trduck@...>
 

Many of these towns had a
bulk distributor's that received shipment's in steam era tank cars,
but through mergers and acquisitions, I am not sure who the players
were in 1957. Does anyone have any advice on where I might find
additional information?

Brian carlson
When I started on collecting information on the Bagnell Branch I came
across a commerically published regional map that listed all the stores
and businesses. There were a number of bulk oil and ful dealers
shown. If you can track down a 1957 telephone book that would be a
great source. I also found the Sanborn Fire Insurance maps to be a
great source in showing you on what RR the dealer had their facilities
and storage tanks located.
Charlie

Shell Tamk Car Photos

railsnw1 <railsnw@...>
 

All,

I'm trying to locate photos of Shell Oil Co. tank cars, in particular
cars lettered SCCX, SCMX, and SNHX. These would be cars in the steam
era. Any leads on sources would be appreciated.

Also has anyone tried to get tank car information from Shell? I notice
they have a museum in Houston.

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Tim O'Connor
 

Jack was the zinc inbound, or outbound? If outbound, do
you know where it went? I suppose if inbound in a Milwaukee
gondola then it could have come from Idaho... and if it
was inbound, what industry used it?

Tim O'

That is exactly correct Gene, especially for railroads like the YV and
others that didn't have "through" traffic. Some of that "better information"
is obviously photos and there are numerous photos of YV trains with gondolas
so I bought many years ago when Westerfield first released kits for them.
Years later, I discovered that they were used to ship zinc concentrates
beginning in...ah...1944. That is why Mark Piece was able to buy a
Westerfield Milwaukee #307802 gondola from me last year....<g>

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Re: Retail gas stations of the 1950's

James SANDIFER
 

Bulk oil dealers - try Sanborn maps, telephone books/yellow pages.

----------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian J. Carlson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:48 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Retail gas stations of the 1950's


I hope the Mike will allow mw a little latitude here since this group
is often a source of wide ranging information. I am looking for an
avenue to determine what retail gasoline stations operated in the
towns I model in the mid 1950's. I have done the usual ebay searches,
and am in the process of inquiring through local historical societies,
old business directories, phone books etc.. Many of these towns had a
bulk distributor's that received shipment's in steam era tank cars,
but through mergers and acquisitions, I am not sure who the players
were in 1957. Does anyone have any advice on where I might find
additional information?

Brian carlson

Retail gas stations of the 1950's

Brian J. Carlson <brian@...>
 

I hope the Mike will allow mw a little latitude here since this group
is often a source of wide ranging information. I am looking for an
avenue to determine what retail gasoline stations operated in the
towns I model in the mid 1950's. I have done the usual ebay searches,
and am in the process of inquiring through local historical societies,
old business directories, phone books etc.. Many of these towns had a
bulk distributor's that received shipment's in steam era tank cars,
but through mergers and acquisitions, I am not sure who the players
were in 1957. Does anyone have any advice on where I might find
additional information?

Brian carlson

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Jack Burgess
 

Gene wrote:

It seems to me that the various mathematical or statistical schemes
have one starting in the wrong place.

On most model railroads there are loads that originate on the modeled
portion, loads that have a destination on the modeled portion and loads
that simply pass through the scene. (Jack Burgess' Yosemite Valley and
similar RRs that only connect with the rest of the world at one point
would not have that latter category, I suppose.)

First, I think, one should determine what gets shipped from or
delivered to points on the modeled portion. Those loads will
necessarily suggest, and in some cases demand, a certain type of car.
Next determine how much is shipped or received. Now you can determine
the number of the various types of cars needed.

Now one has the information needed to start using a mathematical or
statistical scheme ONLY IF better information is not available.
That is exactly correct Gene, especially for railroads like the YV and
others that didn't have "through" traffic. Some of that "better information"
is obviously photos and there are numerous photos of YV trains with gondolas
so I bought many years ago when Westerfield first released kits for them.
Years later, I discovered that they were used to ship zinc concentrates
beginning in...ah...1944. That is why Mark Piece was able to buy a
Westerfield Milwaukee #307802 gondola from me last year....<g>

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Charlie Vlk
 

To build on Gene's observation, this is one of the objections I have to the Car Card Pocket / Waybill system as it is supposed to be used (waybills don't stay with the Car Card Pocket but are cycled through available appropriate car types.... but many don't ever leave the pocket and at best the car cycles through the four available waybills).
Seems to me that because of the route and traffic originating on railroads and the relationships between roads car usage is not really random. Certain actors get the parts more often than others. Selection of roadnames for "foreign" cars is more based on where inbounds originate than any mathematical or statiscial scheme. Yes, there are exceptions because of the intent of the interchange rules, but you are more likely to see a GN, NP or CB&Q car with lumber inbound to a road that has freindly connections to the Q than a Milwuakee road car. Not that you can't justify a Ribside Car Co. or Fox Valley MILW ribside on your layout, it just wouldn't be as common.
So I don't think you need the speration of Car Card and Waybill.... the role any given car plays should not be random.
It seems to me that with computers it isn't necessary to have the additional bulk of the car card pocket.... the "scripts" ... waybills .... and the car information can be printed and cut an pasted together on one card. The only problem is how to indicate the completion of a waybill on a card that has several on it (including delivery of empty cars to an online shipper for loading or forwarding to the car's owner in compliance (or total violation of) the interchange rules..... having the conductor mark the date of delivery after the waybill line can take care of that and eliminates the need for the layout owner to "flip" waybills in between sessions.
Anyone using such a setup???
Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs


It seems to me that the various mathematical or statistical schemes
have one starting in the wrong place.

On most model railroads there are loads that originate on the modeled
portion, loads that have a destination on the modeled portion and loads
that simply pass through the scene. (Jack Burgess' Yosemite Valley and
similar RRs that only connect with the rest of the world at one point
would not have that latter category, I suppose.)

First, I think, one should determine what gets shipped from or
delivered to points on the modeled portion. Those loads will
necessarily suggest, and in some cases demand, a certain type of car.
Next determine how much is shipped or received. Now you can determine
the number of the various types of cars needed.

Now one has the information needed to start using a mathematical or
statistical scheme ONLY IF better information is not available.

Gene Green

.

Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?

water.kresse@...
 

Notice an almost Vans' order # 5604: PM and NKP yes, but how did the W&LE get in there on the same order . . . bootstrapped to the NKP?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <@timboconnor>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2009 11:31:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?

Pullman welded box car (PS-0) original roster:

  B&LE  90101- 90200 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
  CGW   90000- 90049 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
  NKP   20000- 20199 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604A
  PM    84000- 84099 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604B
  RI   149051-       blt 1939 6' 6p SUP
  UP   186000-186049 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
  W&LE  26000- 26199 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604C

The AWE brass import sports an Equipco E-369 brake
wheel (production 1937-1942).

Tim O'Connor


I have one of those I bought years ago. I'm not a rivet counter, that's
hard to do on a welded car anyway : ) So I have no opinion on the
accuracy of the model. Looks good to me. I decaled mine CGW using Champ
road name and data sets. I also build an old Yankee Clipper (F&C) kit.
The F&C decals were so bad in it I used Champ on that car too. I have
built other F&C kits. I would only order F&C decals as the very last
resort.
PS-O is a modeler made term frowned upon by certain members of this
group.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?

water.kresse@...
 

This last comment is very pointed!  How do you tackfully bridge the gap between "prototypical" terminology vs. "modeler or railfan" terminology?



Modelers request information from historical societies using these terms and the model supplier's name . . . . and assume everyone models in HO . . . much less models.  Who (suppliers, modelers, etc.) started this "slang" terminology . . . . not wanting to be snubbish but be helpful?  I know it is easy to get "more than a mouthful" in a technically almost correct description.



Example: Modelers will e-mail the C&O Historical Society with a formal "one sentence" research request asking "is the Proto 2000 50-foot box car correct for the C&O in the late-steam era?"  Then you have to get on their supplier's website and determine who probably made the car originally from key visual characteristics and model descriptions . . . and match it to specific series of cars.  Then responding to your reply to the requester they will tell you they knew it was an ACF built car with 9-foot side doors, etc.   Is it because many modelers are so short termed-focused to what they saw in the latest magazines and what can spend money and time on their next month's projects . . . that they assume everyone is only interested in those latest releases?



You don't seem to get questions like that from folks ordering Westerfield and other higher-quality/more expensive resin kits . . . . that come with short histories of the cars along with the models.



        Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 5, 2009 9:59:16 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?

"PS-O is a modeler made term frowned upon by certain members of this group."

Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?

Jason Sanford <parkcitybranch@...>
 

It also has the 7 panel door making it good for NKP, PM, and W&LE.  The box on the other hand says otherwise by listing some prototypes that had the 6 panel door, more marketing appeal I guess.
 
Jason Sanford

--- On Thu, 2/5/09, Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor> wrote:

From: Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PS-0? 1940 Pullman Welded Box Car by AW Enterprises - Thoughts?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 9:31 AM

Pullman welded box car (PS-0) original roster:

B&LE 90101- 90200 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
CGW 90000- 90049 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
NKP 20000- 20199 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604A
PM 84000- 84099 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604B
RI 149051- blt 1939 6' 6p SUP
UP 186000-186049 blt 1938 6' 6p SUP lot 5584
W&LE 26000- 26199 blt 1940 6' 7p SUP lot 5604C

The AWE brass import sports an Equipco E-369 brake
wheel (production 1937-1942).

Tim O'Connor

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Dave Nelson
 

As a reminder, the hypothesis that Tim and I asserted always was qualified:

Ordinary, **foreign** road boxcars. Tim later suggested ordinary foreign
road flatcars were the same. Post WWII **mainline** trunk routes. That the
ratio of home to foreign road boxcars would vary along w/ economic
conditions (i.e., there is not one magic ratio everyone should use as
everyone has a different time period in mind). And last, but not least,
the sample size had to be large... As in at least 1000 foreign road boxcars.
Tim and I were studying railroads, not model railroads. Continuing, I
always argued against the inclusion of Canadian marked cars... Or if
included, to set their railroads contribution to distributed fleet at 10% so
as to match the FACT that only 10% of home road cars loaded in Canada were
sent south of the border and that the law required them to be returned to
Canada quite directly.

Not expressed, but IMO a reasonable addition, would be to add something to
take into account the complete ownership of one road by another, such as the
SN by the WP, the T&NO by the SP, and yes, perhaps even the CV by the CN.

All of that slices out of the picture a lot of locations and in some cases,
a lot of cars (i.e., counting CN cars on the CV as home road).

So right off the bat, Jack Burgess and his YV were out of scope. As were
all the PRR boxcars in Enola Yard. I'm not familiar w/ the Ball Line
Route... But I want to ask: Were those cars part of the common carrier fleet
or were they private road cars? One would expect a different movement
pattern for the later.

In recent years I have done futher analysis on the Western Pacific traffic
and seen a very distinct pattern of a large number of loaded boxcars
terminating in the SF Bay Area and correspondingly fewer outbounds.
Slightly more than a 2:1 ratio. Thinking on that fact led me to realize the
WP had little need for storing ordinary, home road boxcars in protective
service in this area as they were "blessed" w/ a a generous supply provided
by everyone else. Which led to the notion that in areas where the
opposite traffic conditions were true... Such, places like, say, Modesto,
CA, the opposite conditions for protective service would also be true. If
true, then there may have been a fair number of SP and ATSF boxcars sitting
aound in and near Modesto... from which some could have been loaned to the
YV when asked for.

Moving on... As for the interesting analysis of how to manage a modeled
freight car fleet... I agree the correct procedure is to reserve some
portion of the foreign road boxcars -- I thought in the 10-20% range of the
owners nominal count of on-layout foreign road cars, for double or tripple
the number of cars that percentage calculated to, but bearing the marks of
smaller roads, cycling them in and out regularly. The only problems I see
with that approach is storage, extra handling, and the bother of having to
do it. But the theory is sound and the variety it provides, both visually
and in the pleasure of collecting them, could still make it worthwhile.

Dave Nelson

Re: Freight Car Distribution on smaller RRs

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Mike,

Consider that two of the same cars could mean your are twice as serious a prototype modeler than the rest of us!

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Mike Brock wrote:


. . . All of this is freightening, of course, but trivial compared to the fact that I have two [ 2 ] UP CA-1 cabooses with the same number. Geeez. That would do it. Can you imagine? I painted and numbered a brass CA-1 and Walthers produced their model yrs later...with the same number. Reckon the police will excuse me? Hmmm. Yep, that's what I figure also...

Mike Brock