Date   

Re: West India Fruit & Steamship Company Historic Film

Bob Chaparro
 

Ships -

Don, you may find some of the ships on-line.

Before West India Fruit and Steamship Company, Seatrain Lines (the operating name for the Over-Seas Shipping Company) shipping by using entire loaded rail cars between ports in the United States and Havana, Cuba, with the first shipment in December 1928 aboard a specially designed ship, Seatrain. This original ship, later renamed Seatrain New Orleans, was capable of carrying 95 fully loaded rail cars.

The company built two larger specialized ships in 1932, Seatrain New York and Seatrain Havana with greater rail car capacity. In 1939 two more ships were added, Seatrain Texas and Seatrain New Jersey.

The original 1928 shipment aboard Seatrain caused a labor issue that foretold similar issues later with container ships when Cuban stevedores demanded that they not only unload the rail cars from the ship but unload and repack the rail car contents before turning the cars over to Cuban railways.

In 1951 Seatrain Lines added two additional railcar carriers, the Seatrain Georgia and Seatrain Louisiana. That year Seatrain also ceased operations to and from Cuba, and renamed its ship Seatrain Havana to Seatrain Savannah to reflect the suspension of service. In 1953 Seatrain sold its operating authority to trade between the US and Cuba to the West India Fruit and Steamship Company, along with its first ship, the Seatrain New Orleans, which was renamed Sea Level. West India Fruit & Steamship Company already had been in operation from 1946.


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Seth Lakin
 

Craig wrote:” a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.”


Not exactly, Indiana’s full crew law stated
”It shall be unlawful for any carrier to operate a freight train consisting of seventy (70) cars or more, without a crew of competent employees, which crew shall consist of not less than one (1) engineer, one (1) fireman, one (1) conductor, one (1) flagman, and two (2) brakemen.”

The law did not specify a head end caboose. But the Monon and NKP utilized such cars. The NKP cars were converted from 36’ wood sided boxcars. The NYC had almost identical but the NYC used them in transfer and terminal service.


Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

spsalso
 

Ask a question--get an answer.

Wow!

And thanks to all.  Very interesting.  Though not as interesting as it would have been in Oregon.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: West India Fruit & Steamship Company Historic Film

Guy Wilber
 


Ed wrote:

"The rail traffic to Cuba, as with Mexico, was mainly in US owned cars.
However new cars built in the US for the Consolidated Railways of Cuba, National of Mexico or other foreign railroads using the AAR coupler, standard gauge and Westinghouse air brake, had their equipment roll on US rails from the factory to a shipping point."
All of them were painted and usually lettered, wearing Metric dimensional and weight data. For US operation, English Empire data would also be required (feet, inches, pounds and tons).
Note that Canadian freight cars carry both, as well as lettering in English and French.  
So modeling a brand new car for NdeM or Cuba Consolidated and running it on a US theme model railroad would be a stretch but not incorrect.
Mainly because there would be more than one car of them in a train for delivery at the border, or a port for shipment abroad."

You are correct regarding the Cuban Railroads, but incorrect about Mexican roads.  The various Mexican roads interchanged cars with several US roads which served the Southwest.  Any ORER will list the interchange points.  

A good number of Mexican railroads were members of The MCBA, The ARA and AAR and adhered to the Interchange Rules.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada



 


_._,_._,_


Re: Looking to contact Ed Kaminski . . . now PM Wooden Cabooses

lrkdbn
 

Yes they were yellow with a red stripe along the bottom of the sides and aluminum end railings and platforms, as I recall..
C&O lettering of course.
I moved away from the neighborhood in late 1972,and the two PM cabooses were gone by then.I do recall seeing C&O "standard" wood and plywood cabooses sometimes at Rougemere ca. 1973-4
The only PM lettered car I recall seeing in that time was a black covered hopper at Rougemere (Dearborn MI) yard one day.
What is the address of the revived PM historical society?
Regards
Larry King


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Penny Simunic
 

Monon rider car. Used in Indiana to allow LCL shipments. Also to accommodate the extra conductor, for extra crewman in Indiana. Not sure how it ended up out West. In later years used as tool car.
RonS


Re: Photo: NKP Boxcar 27664

lrkdbn
 

Another car I've been looking for! Ray Breyer at the NKP group knows a lot about these cars,and the NKPHTS
modeler's on line magazine has articles. Decals can be had from Resin Car Works.
Larry King


Re: West India Fruit & Steamship Company Historic Film

Walter Cox
 



In a message dated 12/15/2019 3:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, edb8381@... writes:

<Note that Canadian freight cars carry both, as well as lettering in English and French.> 
The addition of metric and French did not occur on CN until after the period of this list and I think that is true for CP as well.
Walt. ( Modelling CN in 1959.)


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

 

Yeah, that slide is mis-labeled. That is not on SP&S rails, but on the Monon. The Monon faced a power shortage in 1966 due to their return of several Alco C628s to the manufacturer, and had to lease these SP&S engines until Alco could produce the 628s replacement.

The car trailing the locomotive is a 'Rider' car that was required by State Law for 'locals' exceeding a certain size. These were home built by the Monon at the Lafayette, Indiana Shops. Mont Switzer can provide a more thorough description of these cars. 

In HO, at one time they were offered by Overland Models.

Dave Strahlendorf
Erlanger, Ky


Re: West India Fruit & Steamship Company Historic Film

Donald B. Valentine
 

    Well Bob I had hoped that the second car photo you posted might have saved the day as it appears
 to be an earlier lettering style that I, at least, have not ever seen before. Unfortunately a check of my
1946 and 1947 ORER's draws a total blank. So I gather that this entire operation did not get under way 
until 1949 or the very early 1950's which is beyond my Dec. 1948 cut-off date. The film is none-the-less 
of interest for the ship photos. I gather that these ships were strictly for below deck loading, much like the
Great Lakes car ferries on which I enjoyed a trip back in 1978, but that these were rear loading only with
four tracks. The tie down equipment is very interesting but what were all the structures on top of the ferry
deck? It appears that like many of the earlier freight lines that these car ferries also may have carried
passengers. The Proto-2000 LV auto boxcar being unloaded was of particular interest as was the flat car
of new Corn Binder, read that as International Harvester, tractors which I suspect several other readers
caught as well as you PFE reefer.

Thanks very much for posting this, Don Valentine


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Craig Zeni
 

On Dec 15, 2019, at 3:31 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6a. Odd (to me) Monon car
From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:15:11 EST

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco. Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?

Ed
Not opinion, but fact...it's not Oregon. It's Salem, Indiana. The Monon leased a few SP&S RS-2s in the 1960s. The odd car is what's called a Rider Caboose...a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.

Forgot to sign the first one...


Craig Zeni
Cary NC


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Steven D Johnson
 

Matt is correct.  Subsequently, that unit was purchased by L&N in 1966 and rebuilt into an RS3 by L&N using components from a damaged L&N FA2.  It was renumbered to L&N #104 (2nd).

 

The car behind the locomotive is a Monon head end caboose. It was one of 6 such cars Monon constructed from old stone-hauling gondolas in the Lafayette Shops. 

 

Steve Johnson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matt Herson
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 2:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

Ed,

The SP&S engine was  used on the Monon late in its life so I believe the location to be Salem Indiana on the Monan.

Matt Herson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of spsalso via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco.  Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Craig Zeni
 

On Dec 15, 2019, at 3:31 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6a. Odd (to me) Monon car
From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:15:11 EST

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco. Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?

Ed
Not opinion, but fact...it's not Oregon. It's Salem, Indiana. The Monon leased s few SP&S RS-2s in the 1960s. The odd car is what's called a Rider Caboose...a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Seth Lakin
 

Yes Salem, Indiana on the Monon. The Monon built in the company shops these “head end cabooses”. They housed the head end brakeman and any LCL that may be carried to be distributed along the line. They were typically used on the wayfreight trains that ran each section of the line. I would have to dig my notes out but there were 6-8 of them built in the late 40’s from flats. 

Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Brian Termunde
 

I'm no expert, but it looks like a rider car that the Monon used to obey Indiana's Full Crew laws.

What the heck it's doing in Salem is beyond me though!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

I believe that’s one of Monon’s odd cabooses. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Dec 15, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Matt Herson <mjherson@...> wrote:



Ed,

The SP&S engine was  used on the Monon late in its life so I believe the location to be Salem Indiana on the Monan.

Matt Herson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of spsalso via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco.  Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Odd (to me) Monon car

Matt Herson
 

Ed,

The SP&S engine was  used on the Monon late in its life so I believe the location to be Salem Indiana on the Monan.

Matt Herson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of spsalso via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco.  Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: SP/SSW "DF" loader symbol decal: Is the one"

Tony Thompson
 


On Dec 15, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
     Background color was an orangish-yellow, as Norm Buckhart showed. This has been done in bright yellow by some manufacturers (incorrectly), but was once done right by Walthers in HO scale. Border and letters are black.
      If you have my SP boxcar book, the lettering drawing for this is on page 354.

     Shouldna typed so fast. Obviously it is the letters and border that are orange, and the background black. Sheesh.

Tony Thompson




Re: West India Fruit & Steamship Company Historic Film

Edward
 

The rail traffic to Cuba, as with Mexico, was mainly in US owned cars.
However new cars built in the US for the Consolidated Railways of Cuba, National of Mexico or other foreign railroads using the AAR coupler, standard gauge and Westinghouse air brake, had their equipment roll on US rails from the factory to a shipping point.
All of them were painted and usually lettered, wearing Metric dimensional and weight data. For US operation, English Empire data would also be required (feet, inches, pounds and tons).
Note that Canadian freight cars carry both, as well as lettering in English and French.  
So modeling a brand new car for NdeM or Cuba Consolidated and running it on a US theme model railroad would be a stretch but not incorrect.
Mainly because there would be more than one car of them in a train for delivery at the border, or a port for shipment abroad. 

Ed Bommer


Re: SP/SSW "DF" loader symbol decal: Is the one"

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

I looked first on the Microscale website for the attached "DF" Loader symbol used by the SP and SSW and maybe others. Does anyone know if this is available anywhere? I think the "DF" and border are yellow. Can anyone advise the background, border and letter colors please?

     Background color was an orangish-yellow, as Norm Buckhart showed. This has been done in bright yellow by some manufacturers (incorrectly), but was once done right by Walthers in HO scale. Border and letters are black.
      If you have my SP boxcar book, the lettering drawing for this is on page 354.

Tony Thompson