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Re: 3D pantograph mold making

Bill Welch
 

Just wondering what we are supposed to do with this information?

Bill Welch
Re: R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Tim O'Connor
 


I've said before, I've always admired the Front Range R+3/4 box car ends. Some other
ends may be as good but IMO no one has surpassed them.




On 12/12/2019 12:49 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
I know that a good CNC program is certainly capable of superior work and is done so all the time, but I challenge anyone to find a better HO improved Dreadnaught end than the HO casting I sent a picture of yesterday. Yes, very few do any old school 3D work these days for the reasons you have stated about time. But my challenge I feel is safe from being broken. I look forward to being proven wrong.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Looking for resin reefer parts

Tim O'Connor
 


I think Craig Zeni got some - ask him!


On 12/12/2019 2:35 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Looking for resin reefer parts

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick

3D pantograph mold making

Andy Carlson
 

I wish to be clear--I do not think that old-school 3D mold making is better than CNC. I am simply saying that 3D mold making has made some great model parts and has no need to be viewed as not worthy of fine toolmaking.

In then decades since Athearn switched from Blue Box zinc outside axle bearing blomberg diesel trucks there has been dozens of HO blomberg trucks arrive on the market, and I would not be surprised to learn that ALL of them were made from CNC tech. Yet the folks who have earned high praise for their diesel locomotive builds are nearly unaminous in their preferring the Athearn styrene inside axle bearing blomberg diesel truck. And as I mentioned yesterday, that truck's tooling was made with 3D pantographed toolmaking and remains to the present the best such truck side frame in the hobby.

To me the better CNC tools are using high quality digital scanning which allows the makers to avoid repeating those horrible Dreadnaught ends from the past which resulted from simplified data points placed into the CNC programs. We all remember seeing Dreadnaught ends with breaking steps in the swells' slopes. Those problems go beyond fixing with tool stoneing.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
Looking for resin reefer parts

mopacfirst
 

Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz.  If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....

Ron Merrick
Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Charlie Vlk
 

When I was visiting the Kato factory I reviewed the CNC milled positive aluminum trial of the N Scale RDC body. 
Over the 3D aluminum object we discussed the roof curvature and marked it up for correction to the 3D CAD tooling files....
The following morning (!!!!) I was presented with the first plastic test shots of the corrected body shells!!!
Reviewing 3D renderings of designs is vastly preferable to trying to absorb and index twenty or more paper drawings covering all the parts in a product.  You can peel away elements to look at every aspect of an assembled model and rotate in it to view at from any perspective.  The 3D design programs have built-in fit and interference features that make engineering and review much simpler.
It is still possible to miss nuances of contour but still it is a lot easier than looking at old fashioned multiple plane views on paper prints.
The review process within a company and the interaction between the project manager and the engineers at the factory is critical.   If the engineers do not make recommended changes the product suffers.  Too many times the designer (in China or even in the US) won’t listen and insists on doing it their way, even though the reviewer has direct end user input or experience.   
Importers need to write detailed outline specs covering the full range of quality, performance and feature characteristics to avoid problems, but too many put all in the hands of the factory and are surprised when products don’t measure up to what the market expects.
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended.

Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity.

The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part.  In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification.

The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection.

Dennis Storzek

R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Andy Carlson
 

I know that a good CNC program is certainly capable of superior work and is done so all the time, but I challenge anyone to find a better HO improved Dreadnaught end than the HO casting I sent a picture of yesterday. Yes, very few do any old school 3D work these days for the reasons you have stated about time. But my challenge I feel is safe from being broken. I look forward to being proven wrong.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 9:25:16 AM PST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:


On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:

I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended.

Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity.

The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part.  In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification.

The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection.

Dennis Storzek

Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended.

Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity.

The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part.  In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification.

The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection.

Dennis Storzek
1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Andy Carlson
 

Hi Mark-

I am not a tool maker and have never played one on TV (Ha HA). Most of what I know is just from listening to actual toolmakers talk. I have had a fair amount of resin casting experiences and those traits i can speak about more informedly. The only work I was involved with those 3 ends I sent pictures of was the resin HO end, I poured that casting in a mold I poured with RTV about 16 years ago.

Even further back in time, I once saw the work from another old-school tool maker. This guy had the acrylic 4-1 sized positive of the Athearn Blomberg EMD truck which Athearn had commisioned for the replacement styrene sideframe for the BB Zinc out side bearing early Athearn Blombergs. That plastic sideframe is still held in ultra high regard decades later. That original toolmaker has since passed away. I wish I had bought that acrylic pattern from him when I had the chance.

I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match.
-Andy

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 8:08:23 PM PST, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io <mark_landgraf@...> wrote:


Andy

If you have a Deckel photograph available, wouldn't it have been easier to make the first generation master  rib and then use it to panto all 5 ribs, using an offset method into a ABS sheet?

I model in 1/8 scale and have done steel tooling for 5 rib Murphy end panels. Now insert a piece .030 thick steel and apply 40 tons. 

Are you envisioning resin or vacuum formed or fiberglass sides and roof?

What ever your choice, I'd recommend making sure it is UV and age/heat stable. 

Sometimes it is easier to make your master 2 or 3 times larger and then panto it down to the correct scale. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY
Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Curt, and all;

I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties. I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason.

I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR. There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR@PRR.groups.io [mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io] On Behalf Of Curt Fortenberry
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM
To: PRR@PRR.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars


Elden,

You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list. There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel.

Curt Fortenberry
Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Gang;

I am putting together a presentation on this subject, and am in the next phase of research. I am finding very much info on the story behind the shipment of steel sheet and coiled steel sheet, and numerous railroads' involvement, but have not yet found enough photos to show how the cars looked when complete. Do any of you have photos of pre-dedicated, or dedicated steel shipment cars? Or sources of same? I would be happy to share the story when complete!

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood
Re: freight car roster shots

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for your comments, Lester and Jim.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 1:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] freight car roster shots

 

Eric fine work.   Especially like the C&O and the ACL stands out.   Thanks for sharing.
Lester Breuer

Re: Assembling Truss Rods

Doug MacLeod
 

Very nice work.  I have to use a bending form to make truss rods.

Doug

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 
Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

mark_landgraf
 

Andy

If you have a Deckel photograph available, wouldn't it have been easier to make the first generation master  rib and then use it to panto all 5 ribs, using an offset method into a ABS sheet?

I model in 1/8 scale and have done steel tooling for 5 rib Murphy end panels. Now insert a piece .030 thick steel and apply 40 tons. 

Are you envisioning resin or vacuum formed or fiberglass sides and roof?

What ever your choice, I'd recommend making sure it is UV and age/heat stable. 

Sometimes it is easier to make your master 2 or 3 times larger and then panto it down to the correct scale. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY



On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 7:43 PM, Dennis Storzek
<destorzek@...> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:51 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
The IM part is from a mold made with CNC tool cutting technology, and the resin HO part is from the old-school method.
If you compare the two, it is obvious that IM screwed up the geometry at the end of the ribs. CNC is only as good as the programming, and the computer visualization of the surface sometimes makes these errors hard to spot.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Assembling Truss Rods

Curt Fortenberry
 

Bill,

Nice work for sure.  I still use my old method from narrow gauge modeling days and use fishing line and heat flare the ends.  

Curt Fortenberry 
Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:51 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
The IM part is from a mold made with CNC tool cutting technology, and the resin HO part is from the old-school method.
If you compare the two, it is obvious that IM screwed up the geometry at the end of the ribs. CNC is only as good as the programming, and the computer visualization of the surface sometimes makes these errors hard to spot.

Dennis Storzek
Re: Stencil: Heavy Repairs

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 09:36 AM, mopacfirst wrote:
Those four brackets attached to the car fascia at each end are attached to the ends of the four pieces of lumber that support the ice hatch platform, which surrounds the ice hatch proper.
The reason for doing it this way is to avoid having the attachment bolts penetrate the roof sheet. Bolts through the fascia are less likely to leak on the load. This is the same reason why many of the early steel roofs had clasps that came over the corner and were screwed to the fascia.

Dennis Storzek
Re: Assembling Truss Rods

Walter Cox
 

That is really nice work Bill, quite inspirational. If  I ever get my layout running and my stash of kits built I'll definitely be kitbashing a few old MDC wooden 12-1's into commuter cars.
Walt

In a message dated 12/11/2019 7:32:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, fgexbill@... writes:

CAUTION: Slotted Screws Visible

I have started rigging the truss rod system for my CB&Q model’s underframe. I use .015-brass wire for the rods so prior to gluing the Queen Posts in place I used a new Single Edge Razor Blade to widen the slots in the Grandt Line parts, carefully cleaving away hair width slivers of styrene on each of the sixteen parts. This took about three hours with frequent checks to make sure the .015-wire would nest in the slot. Next I drilled #77 holes in floor just inside the bolsters so one end of the .015 wire could pass through the floor.

I did the interior pair first, bending a section of wire at about 75° on the end that goes through the floor and putting it through the hole I had drilled. Then I let the wire sit in the Queen Post’s slot. Resting my small Tamiya pliers against the Post I made a slight bend. Inevitably I had to adjust this bend until the wire now rests in both Posts to achieve the exact bend. I had already measured the distance between the Posts with my Mitutoyo Digimatic Caliper and then divided this calculation by two to determine the midpoint. I used this calculation to trim the wire. Then I repeated the process for the other truss rod section.

Over the years I have accumulated a few packets of Grandt Line Brass Turnbuckles, These are very nicely detailed—albeit very small—parts. Because cyanoacrylate or CA is an effective glue in this situation, it is main reason I use brass wire with these parts. After I have made two good truss rods I trim each one just enough to create a small gap so that I can see through the turnbuckle. Once happy with each brass wire section, I filed each end to rough them up and then put them back in place resting on their respective Queen Post. Next I slipped the turnbuckle back on and make sure it is oriented so I can see through it. When I am happy, I apply a tiny drop of CA to the Queen Post/Brass Wire joints and to only one end of the turnbuckle, creating a slip joint. After these three joints have cured, I bent the wire ends locking them in the slightly oversized holes. With three glued joints and three that are not glued, this assembly can withstand a fair amount deflection without anything breaking.

My goal is to align each of the turnbuckles so that I can slip a piece of scale scrap lumber through the turnbuckles, hopefully all eight but if not four on each side. (As I was taking the photos clouds were playing with the Sun changing the light so I included extras showing the turnbuckles in different lighting.)


Bill Welch
1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end

Andy Carlson
 

Hello-

Pictured is a tooling resin 1/12 scale PC&F R-40-23 Refrigerator car Dreadnaught end. This is a classic example of an old-school method of tool making. An individual rib is carefully shaped and upon completion a 2nd generation part is mated with 5 others and skillfully joined together to make the 1st generation tooling resin reefer end.

A time intensive large scale model of the end is used as a tracing pattern for cutting a hard tool aluminum mold using a Deckel 3-D pantograph.

The pantograph allows several different scales as recipients for this large scale design. 5.33:1 reduction gives you an S scale part, and a  7.25:1 reduction yields an HO part. The parent large pattern is pictured below.

I have also included a picture of a pair of R-40-23 HO ends. The NP numbered part is from an Intermountain R-40-23 kit, and the grey resin part is a next generation part from the parent large scale pattern. The IM part is from a mold made with CNC tool cutting technology, and the resin HO part is from the old-school method.


Regards,

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA