Date   

Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

spsalso
 

Don,

I'm curious.  What's an Athearn FOBX #4156?  Maybe some kind of link, or something?

I see your 1938 ORER preceeds mine--good to know.

They don't show in my July 1945, although there ARE other interesting critters.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Ed

Edward Sutorik


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 06:30 PM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:
    Out of curiosity alone I looked for these cars in my July 1947 ORER and, like you,  found them gone by that time. 
So I looked at the WFE and BREX rosters to see if they had anything similar, which they didn't. I had also look over 
my Athearn FOBX #4156 which is listed but has nowhere near the height of your two odd balls. With no similar cars
listed for the related companies I went back and looked at the January 1938 ORER and found both listed there and 
just as you described them. Sorry I can't offer any ore on these tow strange cars.
 
    Speaking of the Athearn FOBX #4156 does anyone know where Fruit Growers Express used these cars and who
they served? Fruit Growers was a large operator in New England, especially on the New Haven, so I bought it some
time ago to add variety to a reefer block.
 
Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

Tim O'Connor
 


Were they anything like the W&R models?

https://brasstrains.sirv.com/products/079574/0795740102.jpg


On 4/6/2020 9:30 PM, Donald B. Valentine via groups.io wrote:
    Out of curiosity alone I looked for these cars in my July 1947 ORER and, like you,  found them gone by that time. 
So I looked at the WFE and BREX rosters to see if they had anything similar, which they didn't. I had also look over 
my Athearn FOBX #4156 which is listed but has nowhere near the height of your two odd balls. With no similar cars
listed for the related companies I went back and looked at the January 1938 ORER and found both listed there and 
just as you described them. Sorry I can't offer any ore on these tow strange cars.

    Speaking of the Athearn FOBX #4156 does anyone know where Fruit Growers Express used these cars and who
they served? Fruit Growers was a large operator in New England, especially on the New Haven, so I bought it some
time ago to add variety to a reefer block.

Cordially, Don Valentine


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Dennis: Thank you for that very succinct explanation.  I believe it supports if not outright proves that what I said was not nonsense. 

Ed:  There is a vast difference between theoretical principles and real-world applications.  I think I was being fair in objecting to Tony's manner of writing, which was unnecessarily harsh, especially in light of what Dennis has said.  What about your tone indeed!  There are nicer ways of saying that you think someone is wrong, and 'tis easier to remove one's foot from one's mouth when it has not already been shoved all the way in ;-).

Moderator:  Don't bother excommunicating me from this group; I am already leaving voluntarily as I don't need the unpleasantness of being attacked like this.  When I read something that I think is wrong, I first ask, "Excuse me but I thought it was actually ____.  How have you arrived at your facts?"  To get a whole lot of "You're wrong!  That's nonsense!" fresh out of the blocks is not the behaviour of gentlemen.

Regards
Paul


Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

    Out of curiosity alone I looked for these cars in my July 1947 ORER and, like you,  found them gone by that time. 
So I looked at the WFE and BREX rosters to see if they had anything similar, which they didn't. I had also look over 
my Athearn FOBX #4156 which is listed but has nowhere near the height of your two odd balls. With no similar cars
listed for the related companies I went back and looked at the January 1938 ORER and found both listed there and 
just as you described them. Sorry I can't offer any ore on these tow strange cars.

    Speaking of the Athearn FOBX #4156 does anyone know where Fruit Growers Express used these cars and who
they served? Fruit Growers was a large operator in New England, especially on the New Haven, so I bought it some
time ago to add variety to a reefer block.

Cordially, Don Valentine


CORRECTED COPY Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W BL and BLa boxcars

David
 

A check of the July 1935 ORER turns up the car series N&W 67000-67999, 791 cars, 40 ft 6 in IL, 9 ft 1 in IH, 10 ft door opening.  This series in the January 1940 ORER is occupied by 31 ft IL, 11 ft height of top chord above rail twin hoppers as the Class BL boxcars were rebuilt to Class SK stock cars in the mid-1930s.
500 of the class BL were rebuilt to class SK stock cars. The other 500 were renumbered to 42000-42790 (some numbers were not used).

David Thompson


Steam Locomotive Expertise

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Steam locomotives pull steam era freight cars.  (Get that out of the way, first.)
 
I am looking for someone to discuss power reverse gear.  Around 1940, the Rock Island equipped a bunch of older locomotives with power reverse gear.  In the series that currently interests me, they used several brands of equipment.  I have photos and would like to have an off group discussion with someone who could help ID's the various types.
 
Please contact me off list at shile (at) mindspring (dot) com if you can help, or know someone who can.
 
Thanks so much,
Steve Hile


Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

spsalso
 

Bill,

That was my first thought, but the cars are several feet taller, and have 10'-6" (I corrected my earlier statement that the doors were 10' tall) tall doors.  Ain't no express reefers like that.  These were very tall cars.  They exceeded current Plate F heights.

It's almost like they had some very tall (and somewhat narrow) things to load that needed refrigeration.  And a likely limited routing.


Ed

Edward Sutorik



On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 03:15 PM, Bill Welch wrote:
Most likely two of their Express Reefers in freight service for whatever reason at the time.

Bill Welch


CORRECTED COPY Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Scott Chatfield asked:
"A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?"

A search of the online Virginia Tech Norfolk Southern Collection turned up two Class BL boxcar images:

A check of the July 1935 ORER turns up the car series N&W 67000-67999, 791 cars, 40 ft 6 in IL, 9 ft 1 in IH, 10 ft door opening.  This series in the January 1940 ORER is occupied by 31 ft IL, 11 ft height of top chord above rail twin hoppers as the Class BL boxcars were rebuilt to Class SK stock cars in the mid-1930s.

The first photo, N&W 67332 is of the cars as built; the second photo, N&W 67910, is of the cars with a new steel-sheathed roof.  A search of the N&W Historical Society online archive turned up a general arrangement drawing of Class SK, which shows a radial roof and 7/8 Murphy ends.  My educated guess is that it's the same radial roof used for the Class BK USRA SS boxcars (N&W 120000-120799) as modeled by Westerfield kit 3365.

As far as I know, no kits have been offered.  The quick and dirty approach would be to used the Tichy model with their #3058 7/8 end and the NERS/SSCo. auxiliary door conversion parts as a starting point for the cars as built as the car height is the same.  The cars with the upgraded steel radial roofs would be more challenging; you would either have to scratchbuild a roof for the Tichy model or use Westerfield 3365 as a starting point (which would give you the roof) and replace the ends (a bit more challenging with this kit as it features a one-piece body).

However, the fly in the ointment is the spacing of the truss members.  Note that the "panel" to the left of the door opening is slightly narrower, and the one to the right of the door opening is slightly wider.  This is not as easily corrected; my recommendation is to use a Westerfield 7201 CP USRA "clone" flat kit as a starting point (as it also gives you the 7/8 Murphy ends), cut out the two "panels" in question and splice in new scratchbuilt "panels", and scratchbuild the radial roof if you're doing a later car.


Ben Hom


Re: WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

Bill Welch
 

Most likely two of their Express Reefers in freight service for whatever reason at the time.

Bill Welch


Re: N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Scott Chatfield asked:
"A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?"

A search of the online Virginia Tech Norfolk Southern Collection turned up two Class BL boxcar images:

A check of the July 1935 ORER turns up the car series N&W 67000-67999, 791 cars, 40 ft 6 in IL, 9 ft 1 in IH, 10 ft door opening.  This series in the January 1940 ORER is occupied by 31 ft IL, 11 ft height of top chord above rail twin hoppers as the Class BL boxcars were rebuilt to Class SK stock cars in the mid-1930s.

The first photo, N&W 67332 is of the cars as built; the second photo, N&W 67910, is of the cars with a new steel-sheathed roof.  A search of the N&W Historical Society online archive turned up a general arrangement drawing of Class SK, which shows a radial roof and 7/8 Murphy ends.  My educated guess is that it's the same radial roof used for the Class BK USRA SS boxcars as modeled by Westerfield kit 3365.

As far as I know, no kits have been offered.  The quick and dirty approach would be to used the Tichy model with their #3058 7/8 end and the NERS/SSCo. auxiliary door conversion parts as a starting point for the cars as built as the car height is the same.  The cars with the upgraded steel radial roofs would be more challenging; you would either have to scratchbuild a roof for the Tichy model or use Westerfield 3365 as a starting point (which would give you the roof) and replace the ends (a bit more challenging with this kit as it features a one-piece body).

However, the fly in the ointment is the spacing of the truss members.  Note that the "panel" to the left of the door opening is slightly narrower, and the one to the right of the door opening is slightly wider.  This is not as easily corrected; my recommendation is to use a Westerfield 7201 CP USRA "clone" flat kit as a starting point (as it also gives you the 7/8 Murphy ends), cut out the two "panels" in question and splice in new "scratchbuilt" panels, and scratchbuild the radial roof if you're doing a later car.


Ben Hom


Re: N&W BL and BLa boxcars

Brent Greer
 


I've been intending to do such a conversion myself one of these days.  My original plan was to use the westerfield N&W class BK kit as a starting point and add a half door kit from New England Rail Services.  Need to fabricate a door stop for the left side and the additional door track and hardware for that side as well, but should be a pretty straightforward conversion.

Thanks,
Brent



Dr. J. Brent Greer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 5:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] N&W BL and BLa boxcars
 
A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?


Scott Chatfield


N&W BL and BLa boxcars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

A friend of mine who is very much a modern day modeler wants to try his hand at kitbashing an N&W class BL or BLa boxcar (Ralston 1923).  Has a kit for these ever been done?  I have no photos of these cars.  Ideas?


Scott Chatfield


WFEX 1201-1202 freight reefers

spsalso
 
Edited

I was just poking around in early WFEX history, in the ORER's.

In both my January 1939 and my April 1941, I found these two cars, listed as freight reefers, not express.  They are interesting, I think.

OL                    50'-8"
IL                      44'

EXH                 17'-3 5/16"  

Door width      4'
Door height     10'-6"

Cu Ft               3848

Capy                80,000



I did a quick search on this list and on the GN one, and found nothing.

The cars do not appear in my July 1945 ORER, though there ARE other interesting nominal 50 footers.

Any thoughts on these giants?



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tony Thompson
 

I wrote:
  Richard Hendrickson did the same to get some durable bracket-mount grabs. I still have a couple dozen of his parts, very nice brass. Don't know what reject rate occurred.
Dennis Storzek replied: 
Those may well be my parts, I intended to sell part of the run to recoup some of my cost, but when Richard heard about it, he bought all I wanted to sell.

          Likely true. He described the process by which they were made, but didn't ever say, that I recall, that HE had gotten it done.
          The parts are lovely. I am slowly using them.

Tony Thompson




Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tony Thompson
 

Paul Woods wrote:

I am greatly insulted by your tone and it appears that you have not put any thought into your comment.  Seriously? 

       Yes, I was blunt. Not any thought? How's your tone yourself?

You are trying to tell us that ALL the metal in a casting cools to freezing point at exactly the same moment?  

      No, I didn't, nor does it matter.

the metal might eventually shrink equally, but not all at the same time because cooling happens from the outside in, and this can be used to our advantage. 

      Ah, you do know that it shrinks equally. This discussion began with the question of how much lost-wax patterns are made oversize to account for this shrinkage. It most certainly IS the entire shrinkage that is relevant to this topic.

....as a metallurgist you should be aware of the high density of metals such as steel and brass, and thus the pressure that will be exerted that can keep pushing semi-molten metal down towards the bottom of a mould when it is cooled slowly enough

     Mold filling is NOT the issue: important, of course, but not the issue here. So on this point, what you say is entirely true, but irrelevant.

Tony Thompson




Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Missing Car? AC&F 10K high-walkway tank car.


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:50 AM Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:
Missing car  ?  A Magor 70 ton side dump car. Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:05 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Not to mention the UNION TANK CAR UTLX X-1 tank cars!! AAARGH!

:-D


On 4/5/2020 2:31 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
> All-
> Why do an interchange freight car prototype that had a hundred or less examples?
> Have we completely run out of missed cars with broader multi road application?
> I don’t think we have many production single sheathed door and a half box cars and many of them had very long service lives and numbered in the thousands on many lines...and went all over.
> Charlie Vlk
>
> Don’t be fooled by the Lionel  F3 syndrome-  while a great railroad with attractive equipment, nothing else sells like it without Warbonnet paint....ATSF freight units sell about the same as high middle other roads.  Even a ATSF layout might not “need” a scarce car that was quickly obsoleted.


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*




Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?

Armand Premo
 

Missing car  ?  A Magor 70 ton side dump car. Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:05 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Not to mention the UNION TANK CAR UTLX X-1 tank cars!! AAARGH!

:-D


On 4/5/2020 2:31 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
> All-
> Why do an interchange freight car prototype that had a hundred or less examples?
> Have we completely run out of missed cars with broader multi road application?
> I don’t think we have many production single sheathed door and a half box cars and many of them had very long service lives and numbered in the thousands on many lines...and went all over.
> Charlie Vlk
>
> Don’t be fooled by the Lionel  F3 syndrome-  while a great railroad with attractive equipment, nothing else sells like it without Warbonnet paint....ATSF freight units sell about the same as high middle other roads.  Even a ATSF layout might not “need” a scarce car that was quickly obsoleted.


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*




Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tim O'Connor
 

Please take this dispute off line.

Thank you.

On 4/6/2020 11:43 AM, spsalso via groups.io wrote:
Paul,

And what did you think of MY tone?
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

spsalso
 

Paul,

And what did you think of MY tone?

Are you saying metal, in its solid form, does not shrink if it is cooled from 900 C down to 25 C?  And would that shrinking, if it does indeed happen, not be in line with what we call the "coefficient of thermal expansion"?

Brass solidifies at around 920 C.  So when the part gets to (around) 920 C, it will become a solid.  IF there is a huge liquid reservoir STILL pressing down on the part, it will indeed compress the part.  Unfortunately for your argument, the amount of compression is literally microscopic--as in, close to immeasurable.  And please note that, when the part is no longer being compressed, it will spring back to its former size.  Also, please note that all this springing back and forth STILL occurs at high temperature--the part has a long way to go to cool down to room temperature, and the shrinkage described in the previous paragraph will STILL happen.

Put more directly, I am saying you are wrong.  Again.  And I look forward to your attempt at disproving the concept of coefficient of thermal expansion.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 04:22 AM, Paul Woods wrote:
Tony

I am greatly insulted by your tone and it appears that you have not put any thought into your comment.  Seriously?  You are trying to tell us that ALL the metal in a casting cools to freezing point at exactly the same moment?  You might know a lot about metallurgy but I know a bit about building things from metal.  I hadn't bothered mentioning that the brass caster's tale matched my own experience gained building steel ships because it didn't seem important, but fine: the metal might eventually shrink equally, but not all at the same time because cooling happens from the outside in, and this can be used to our advantage.  I have dealt with plenty of  castings, such as A-frames for supporting ships' propeller shafts, with significant variations in section size.  The orientation of the casting as it is poured is quite important, with the thicker part intentionally placed above the thinner part so that it acts as a reservoir keeping the thin section filled as it cools....as a metallurgist you should be aware of the high density of metals such as steel and brass, and thus the pressure that will be exerted that can keep pushing semi-molten metal down towards the bottom of a mould when it is cooled slowly enough - that is the key, achieving a slow enough rate of cooling.  You can't tell me it doesn't work because I've already done it; yeah sure, the metal shrinks but if it's done right it is possible to control WHERE the shrinkage occurs.  The column that lost-wax brass parts are stuck to when they are cast serves as one heck of a big reservoir of molten metal as the 'branches' are freezing so I don't have any reason to doubt what the caster said.

Paul Woods
retired mechanical engineer


Re: CORRECTION: SSP Door Document

Tim O'Connor
 


Thank you Steve for the documents with photos. But I still think you should have
added your name to the document as editor and collaborator. :-P

Stay safe, friends

Tim O'



On 4/6/2020 11:03 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Mea culpa.  Bill Welch points out that I had an incorrect model photo for door number 622 the "upside down" door.
 
My apologies.  Please discard yesterday's and keep today's.
 
Thanks.
 
Steve Hile
 
I find that I cannot push these into the Files section on the Groups site.  I am not sure why.  Is that closed?

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

9861 - 9880 of 181094