Date   

Re: incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Dennis Williams
 

AGREED!!!!! 
Dennis Williams
Munhall, Pa.

--- On Fri, 10/2/09, gn3397 <heninger@medicine.nodak.edu> wrote:


From: gn3397 <heninger@medicine.nodak.edu>
Subject: [STMFC] incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 3:11 PM


 





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, "Brian Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

Tim and others how often did this happen? I have 3-4 dozen sunshine kits
many older, and I don't usually look at them until I start to build. I'm
wondering if I should investigate them all

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
Brian,
I have had three incorrectly packaged kits by Sunshine, out of 100+ purchased. I can't believe you have the restraint to not open the kits until you are going to build them, I open every kit as soon as I receive them and enjoy that new resin smell!

Sincerely,
Bob Heninger
Iowa City, IA



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Dennis Williams
 

I have built over 200 Sunshine, F&C, Westerfield and RYM. Very, very few had problems.  One problem that I had was Westerfield "black" kits.  I talked to Al about these kits and understand the problem( very fragile).  Years ago he replaced to defective kits and the shops still sold them. He said that he can no longer replace them. Can't blame him after 20+ years. 
  All you can do is to either build them with slight mods., or see if the company will replace them.  Either way, enjoy them!!  Remember that the kits are slowly fading away to the R-T-R "things".
  Denny Williams
  Munhall, Pa.  
 
.

--- On Fri, 10/2/09, Brian Carlson <brian@bluemoon.net> wrote:


From: Brian Carlson <brian@bluemoon.net>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 2:53 PM


 



Tim and others how often did this happen? I have 3-4 dozen sunshine kits
many older, and I don't usually look at them until I start to build. I'm
wondering if I should investigate them all

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 1:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

Tim and others how often did this happen? I have 3-4 dozen sunshine kits
many older, and I don't usually look at them until I start to build. I'm
wondering if I should investigate them all

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
Brian,
I have had three incorrectly packaged kits by Sunshine, out of 100+ purchased. I can't believe you have the restraint to not open the kits until you are going to build them, I open every kit as soon as I receive them and enjoy that new resin smell!

Sincerely,
Bob Heninger
Iowa City, IA


Re: incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Paul Lyons
 

Brian,



It is a real oddity for a kit to be off as much as the?one that started the tread. Spend your time building one of them, rather than going through them measuring floors and sdes!



Have a Good Weekend!



Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Carlson <brian@bluemoon.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 2:53 pm
Subject: RE: [STMFC] incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1







Tim and others how often did this happen? I have 3-4 dozen sunshine kits
many older, and I don't usually look at them until I start to build. I'm
wondering if I should investigate them all

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 1:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim


Re: incorrectly packed Sunshine kits was Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Brian Carlson <brian@...>
 

Tim and others how often did this happen? I have 3-4 dozen sunshine kits
many older, and I don't usually look at them until I start to build. I'm
wondering if I should investigate them all

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 1:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1


Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim


Ed Hawkins please contact me

Jim King
 

Ed .. please email me off list. Got a question for you.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

<http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Tim O'Connor
 

Or put another way, that's less than 1% shrinkage, which is pretty
much within the normal parameters of Martin's castings.

I just checked and I do have that kit and my floor is about .040" short, and I will just shim the ends when I assemble it.
Charlie Slater


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Slater wrote:
I just checked and I do have that kit and my floor is about .040" short, and I will just shim the ends when I assemble it.
This is more like four scale INCHES, not two feet as in the previous case reported.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

charles slater
 

I just checked and I do have that kit and my floor is about .040" short, and I will just shim the ends when I assemble it.

Charlie Slater

To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
From: atsfcondr42@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:47:12 -0700
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1


Ill fitting parts is usually not Martin's falt, many times it can be traced back to the pattern maker not engineerg it correctly or taking a short cut by using a part from another kit and modifing it to fit the new car instead of just making a new part.

I have done this myself using floors and roofs from other similar cars to keep from making new ones, and sometimes we have no information on exactly what a floor for a certain car actually looks like.

But if the floor is two feet short there is a real problem, it sounds like the car had the wrong floor put into the kit. On the cars I do for Martin, all the parts are cast at the same time in the same rubber mold so if there is any shrinkage all the parts still fit.

Martin has in the past put togather a kit by taking ends, floor, roof and sides all from other kits and creating a new car, and not always testing the fit or even building a finished model from the parts.
At any rate Martin will fix the problem just call him and he will take care of it.

Charlie Slater

Pattern Maker


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: fleeta@verizon.net
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:57:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1





----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.
----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally
incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL

(*) I have made enough models - plastic, resin, and hybrid - to have a
realistic understanding of what "buildable" means, so please save yourself
the effort writing about how resin kits aren't Athearn blue boxes, etc.,
etc.









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

charles slater
 

Ill fitting parts is usually not Martin's falt, many times it can be traced back to the pattern maker not engineerg it correctly or taking a short cut by using a part from another kit and modifing it to fit the new car instead of just making a new part.

I have done this myself using floors and roofs from other similar cars to keep from making new ones, and sometimes we have no information on exactly what a floor for a certain car actually looks like.

But if the floor is two feet short there is a real problem, it sounds like the car had the wrong floor put into the kit. On the cars I do for Martin, all the parts are cast at the same time in the same rubber mold so if there is any shrinkage all the parts still fit.

Martin has in the past put togather a kit by taking ends, floor, roof and sides all from other kits and creating a new car, and not always testing the fit or even building a finished model from the parts.
At any rate Martin will fix the problem just call him and he will take care of it.

Charlie Slater

Pattern Maker


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: fleeta@verizon.net
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:57:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.
----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally
incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL

(*) I have made enough models - plastic, resin, and hybrid - to have a
realistic understanding of what "buildable" means, so please save yourself
the effort writing about how resin kits aren't Athearn blue boxes, etc.,
etc.









_________________________________________________________________
Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Paul Lyons
 

Tim,



Agreed! Thus my point, just send it back to Martin and he will make it right.



Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 10:05 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1








Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim

HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Tim O'Connor
 

Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim

HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Paul Lyons
 

Bob Chapman said


Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.





HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.



Paul Lyons

Laguna Niguel, CA?

-----Original Message-----
From: chapbob@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:58 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1






After reading the ongoing passionate discussion about Sunshine L&N boxcar
kit #85.1, I checked my model which I built a while back. Yes, the floor
was a bit undersized, and I had to add a few styrene strip shims to bring it
to the size of the carbody. This added step took me all of one or two
minutes to complete. Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

For me, I'm delighted and amazed that Sunshine chose to produce a model of
this car; the result beats anything I could have scratchbuilt.

Bob Chapman



In a message dated 9/26/2009 11:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Gary
Laasko writes:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of
the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much
more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot
long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene
to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a
floor so small before!


Re: Star Brand Paints

Lee Thwaits <leethwaits@...>
 

Tim,
You may be correct about high humidity. I live in the Puget sound area and it was raining the night I did the painting. Although I have never had a problem with humidity when spraying Scalecoat or acrylics I have not used Star Brand paints under these weather conditions before.

This paint had to thinned about 80% (20 parts paint 80 parts thinner). I contacted PBL and was told that the employee thinning the paint for bottles probably didn't thin it enough.
Lee


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

Finally, rather than cut the floor apart or scratch build a replacement, why not simply return the defective part with a description of the issue and I'm sure that Martin would address the problem fairly quickly.
Pierre Oliver
Indeed. I purchased a CMO USRA rebuild and received the wrong sides with my model. I sent just the sides back to Martin with a note, expecting replacements within the expected 6-9 month timeframe. Instead, within a couple of weeks I received essentially an entirely new kit within the mail (new sides, roof, underframe and ends) with a note stating that he couldn't replace just the sides as different parts poured at different times wouldn't match.

I would send the underframe back to Martin, and I believe he will make it right. Just my experience as a satisfied customer of Sunshine.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, Iowa


Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

gary laakso
 

As noted in my first note, i had not had a floor smaller then the body in my many years of building resin kits, so the L&N floor was a surprise. I found my ancient stock of plastic channels and cut 2 L shaped pieces and glued one to each side and dropped the floor on them. After making sure it was centered, glued the floord on the channels and its as good as it gets now. Dennis Williams was kind enough to suggest the approach and my extra part pile had the pieces. Its a neat looking car and i found the shade of boxcar red in Vol 3 of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia.
Today is the dreaded day of drilling stiles for my Great Northern Sunshine kits # 77.3 (30000 series DS box) and 77.1(31000 series Single sheathed box). I will try to guide the drill by using a pin to locate the hole. Wandering drills so disrupt the process! Mike, can i put the drills in the jail if they wander away?

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: pierreoliver2003
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 10/2/2009 10:02:10 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1


I can't get over the feeling that Kurt does not fully understand the resin casting process and the vagaries that can arise from time to time with that medium.
The problem described with the floor can and does happen quite a bit with resin. Granted rarely to the extent indicated, but it does happen.
I also believe that a certain amount of accomodation has to be made for the reality of a small family business that has grown bigger than ever expected. I know how hard and long the Lofton's and the Westerfield's have to work to get their products out the door and I always wonder how much better the "complainers" could really do.
Finally, rather than cut the floor apart or scratch build a replacement, why not simply return the defective part with a description of the issue and I'm sure that Martin would address the problem fairly quickly.
Pierre Oliver
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Whatever your definition of "buildable", poorly engineered and ill-fitting
kits do not get better simply because there is a wide variety of them.
Regardless of the appeal of the subject, needing to scratchbuild a new floor
and underframe to replace the item you paid to acquire reduces the overall
quality of the kit significantly. This is an area that demands our
scrutiny, not our apologies.

KL


----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

I can't get over the feeling that Kurt does not fully understand the resin casting process and the vagaries that can arise from time to time with that medium.
The problem described with the floor can and does happen quite a bit with resin. Granted rarely to the extent indicated, but it does happen.
I also believe that a certain amount of accomodation has to be made for the reality of a small family business that has grown bigger than ever expected. I know how hard and long the Lofton's and the Westerfield's have to work to get their products out the door and I always wonder how much better the "complainers" could really do.
Finally, rather than cut the floor apart or scratch build a replacement, why not simply return the defective part with a description of the issue and I'm sure that Martin would address the problem fairly quickly.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Whatever your definition of "buildable", poorly engineered and ill-fitting
kits do not get better simply because there is a wide variety of them.
Regardless of the appeal of the subject, needing to scratchbuild a new floor
and underframe to replace the item you paid to acquire reduces the overall
quality of the kit significantly. This is an area that demands our
scrutiny, not our apologies.

KL


----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

chapbob@...
 

After reading the ongoing passionate discussion about Sunshine L&N boxcar
kit #85.1, I checked my model which I built a while back. Yes, the floor
was a bit undersized, and I had to add a few styrene strip shims to bring it
to the size of the carbody. This added step took me all of one or two
minutes to complete. Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

For me, I'm delighted and amazed that Sunshine chose to produce a model of
this car; the result beats anything I could have scratchbuilt.

Bob Chapman

In a message dated 9/26/2009 11:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Gary
Laasko writes:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of
the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much
more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot
long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene
to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a
floor so small before!


Re: Safeway Foods reefers

Mr Charles burns
 

Hey Micheal
 I recall seeing one come through San Luis Obispo CA in the 70's.  I had an Athearn 50' HO version at the time, and the prototype car was remarkably similar.
 I had heard that Irv Athearn would take pictures of cars in Taylor yard in Los Angeles for reference.
Charlie Burns
N Scale Coastline '64

--- On Sun, 9/20/09, goldrod_1 <goldrod_1@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: goldrod_1 <goldrod_1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Safeway Foods reefers
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 4:35 PM


 



Did Safeway Foods have a fleet of leased reefers? I have seen many cars on the market at different times over the years, but I do not remember ever seeing a real one before. Thanks for any help.

Michael Bishop




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Whatever your definition of "buildable", poorly engineered and ill-fitting kits do not get better simply because there is a wide variety of them. Regardless of the appeal of the subject, needing to scratchbuild a new floor and underframe to replace the item you paid to acquire reduces the overall quality of the kit significantly. This is an area that demands our scrutiny, not our apologies.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.

99961 - 99980 of 185041