Date   

Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Even if the body was right, the RC model's underframe isn't right for the WP/PFE cars. Most, if not all (there is some doubt about this, see Tony's book), used the later R-30-13 underframe. IIRC, this was called a 30-ton "built-up" underframe. You can use Tichy's 40-ton underframe parts to come close.

I used my original short-body kits to build four of the R-40-6 egg cars on R-30-11/12 underfames, as supplied by RC. Their body dimensions are very close to the R-40-6 diagrams. Some details may be compromises, but given the paucity of information about these cars and a complete lack of photos, I am satisfied.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I'm pretty sure if you check this kit, it has the original carbody
and is neither an R-30-12 nor an R-30-9. Moreover, it is simply not
correct for the WP cars.

Tim O'Connor


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Did RC change product numbers with the new kits? If so does anyone know what
they might be. I have 6 R-30-9's and a few of Terry Wegman's conversition
kits (from Andy Carlson) so I would like to make sure the cars are correct.
I'm fairly confident the Terry Wegman kits are OK since they are only a few
years old.

Brian Carlson


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Tim O'Connor
 

Let me just add: Sunshine's R-30-9 and other wood bodied
PFE reefer kits are significantly better detailed than the
Red Caboose plastic kits. So much detail is missing from
the plastic cars that I almost regard them as "stand in"
models.

And of course, the Red Caboose cars only come with the single
I-beam Bettendorf 30 ton underframe. Sunshine offers you three
different underframes.

Tim O'Connor

The subsequent corrected RC releases of the R-30-12 and R-30-9
(R-30-12-9) are excellent kits. Both kits can be improved by shaving
off the brake levers and adding free-standing ones. In addition, the
R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) is good fodder for other cars such as the
R-30-12-16 (R-30-16)and R-30-12-18 (R-30-18) conversions and for
those feeling more adventurous, the R-30-13 and R-30-13-16 with the
use of the Tichy underframe (note that the R-30-13-18 is available as
a plastic kit already).

Regards, From the Sunnybrook Rest Home ;^)
Bruce


Re: Minnesota Mining & Mfg. boxcar

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hi Tony,

There's a photo of a 3M car online at atsfrr,net, the Santa Fe society site. Look under "company store" in the Jack Whitmeyer photo collection, "miscellaneous rolling stock." It's identified by its reporting marks, MINX.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Armand Premo
 

WOW ! Thank you Tim. .Anyone need some nearly new second hand reefers? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9






Armand, Red Caboose 4100, 4101-x, 4200, and 4201-x are all
incorrect PERIOD -- they are not correct for any version of
a PFE reefer. The worst error is the doors. If were just a
question of height, you could use this body to build the
R-30-12.

Tim O'Connor

>> Gentlemen, RC 4101-1 and 4101-2 are identical. Stated IH
>> is 7' 3" Actual measurement is 8' 3" car






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Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Bruce Smith
 

On May 14, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Armand Premo wrote:

Mike et al ,Admittedly I am over my head wandering around in the dark.Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers.Quess I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with my guard up.Armand Premo
Never ever trust either RC or IM with respect to paint and lettering ;^) While I agree with Tim's assessment for Sunshine, with these companies, it isn't "Trust but Verify" but "Verify before you buy"!

The subsequent corrected RC releases of the R-30-12 and R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) are excellent kits. Both kits can be improved by shaving off the brake levers and adding free-standing ones. In addition, the R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) is good fodder for other cars such as the R-30-12-16 (R-30-16)and R-30-12-18 (R-30-18) conversions and for those feeling more adventurous, the R-30-13 and R-30-13-16 with the use of the Tichy underframe (note that the R-30-13-18 is available as a plastic kit already).

Regards, From the Sunnybrook Rest Home ;^)
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
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| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Lehigh Gas tank cars - Norwich Connecticut

Marty McGuirk
 

Garth,

I've checked the Sanborns and although they show the footprint of the various buildings they don't tell me what they looked like.

I checked with the Norwich Historical Society - nothing much on Lehigh Gas, although they had some info on the Standard Oil dealer next door. Most Connecticut small town historical societies I've dealt with over the years seem to think the town's history stopped in 1820!

There's been an Arcadia book published on Norwich that may be useful, but it's out of print at Arcadia. The folks at the Historical Society didn't know about the book, which struck me as rather odd.

Thanks for the tips!

Marty

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

Marty,

Have you checked the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps? They should include
detailed ground plans of this facility. Your public library can probably
get what you need on microfilm. Also try the Norwich historical society
or the nearest university library. Some libraries can access the maps
online (where I work we have only Virginia).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

cvsne wrote:
As luck would have it one of the towns on my Central Vermont layout is Norwich, Connecticut - known for many things but among Steam Era freight car fans and modelers it's most likely best known as the location of a Lehigh Gas facility - see

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/tank/acf/lgx500main.html

While I'm interested modeling the cars I'm also trying to track down some information on the facility itself, and I'm curious if any portion of the facility in Norwich shows up in the background (or anywhere) in pictures of the tank cars themselves.

Oh, and I welcome any suggestions on the best way to model these particular cars.

Thanks,

Marty


Re: Lehigh Gas tank cars - Norwich Connecticut

Marty McGuirk
 

Garth,

I've checked the Sanborns and although they show the footprint of the various buildings they don't tell me what they looked like.

I checked with the Norwich Historical Society - nothing much on Lehigh Gas, although they had some info on the Standard Oil dealer next door. Most Connecticut small town historical societies I've dealt with over the years seem to think the town's history stopped in 1820!

There's been an Arcadia book published on Norwich that may be useful, but it's out of print at Arcadia. The folks at the Historical Society didn't know about the book, which struck me as rather odd.

Thanks for the tips!

Marty

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

Marty,

Have you checked the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps? They should include
detailed ground plans of this facility. Your public library can probably
get what you need on microfilm. Also try the Norwich historical society
or the nearest university library. Some libraries can access the maps
online (where I work we have only Virginia).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

cvsne wrote:
As luck would have it one of the towns on my Central Vermont layout is Norwich, Connecticut - known for many things but among Steam Era freight car fans and modelers it's most likely best known as the location of a Lehigh Gas facility - see

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/tank/acf/lgx500main.html

While I'm interested modeling the cars I'm also trying to track down some information on the facility itself, and I'm curious if any portion of the facility in Norwich shows up in the background (or anywhere) in pictures of the tank cars themselves.

Oh, and I welcome any suggestions on the best way to model these particular cars.

Thanks,

Marty


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

Red Caboose kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without
"System". So, I would think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion
could be found in 1950.
Probably, yes.

WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and bolt heads and the
paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.
I'm pretty sure if you check this kit, it has the original carbody
and is neither an R-30-12 nor an R-30-9. Moreover, it is simply not
correct for the WP cars.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Lehigh Gas tank cars - Norwich Connecticut

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Marty,

Have you checked the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps? They should include detailed ground plans of this facility. Your public library can probably get what you need on microfilm. Also try the Norwich historical society or the nearest university library. Some libraries can access the maps online (where I work we have only Virginia).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

cvsne wrote:

As luck would have it one of the towns on my Central Vermont layout is Norwich, Connecticut - known for many things but among Steam Era freight car fans and modelers it's most likely best known as the location of a Lehigh Gas facility - see
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/tank/acf/lgx500main.html

While I'm interested modeling the cars I'm also trying to track down some information on the facility itself, and I'm curious if any portion of the facility in Norwich shows up in the background (or anywhere) in pictures of the tank cars themselves.
Oh, and I welcome any suggestions on the best way to model these particular cars.
Thanks,
Marty


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Tim O'Connor
 

Armand wrote

Mike et al, Admittedly I am over my head wandering around
in the dark. Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.
Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers. Guess
I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with
my guard up. Armand Premo
Armand

You certainly must be on guard at all times. Sunshine has done
models with incorrect underframes, incorrect doors, incorrect
decals, and even incorrect PFE carbody width (the R-50-5 model).
Not to mention packing errors -- I have received kits with parts
missing, or packed with the wrong parts!

Trust, but verify! :-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Tim O'Connor
 

Armand, Red Caboose 4100, 4101-x, 4200, and 4201-x are all
incorrect PERIOD -- they are not correct for any version of
a PFE reefer. The worst error is the doors. If were just a
question of height, you could use this body to build the
R-30-12.

Tim O'Connor

Gentlemen, RC 4101-1 and 4101-2 are identical. Stated IH
is 7' 3" Actual measurement is 8' 3" car


Lehigh Gas tank cars - Norwich Connecticut

Marty McGuirk
 

As luck would have it one of the towns on my Central Vermont layout is Norwich, Connecticut - known for many things but among Steam Era freight car fans and modelers it's most likely best known as the location of a Lehigh Gas facility - see

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/tank/acf/lgx500main.html

While I'm interested modeling the cars I'm also trying to track down some information on the facility itself, and I'm curious if any portion of the facility in Norwich shows up in the background (or anywhere) in pictures of the tank cars themselves.

Oh, and I welcome any suggestions on the best way to model these particular cars.

Thanks,

Marty


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Armand Premo
 

Mike et al ,Admittedly I am over my head wandering around in the dark.Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers.Quess I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with my guard up.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9





First, Armand...Welcome to the world of PFE. Before you become too involved
be aware that I know of at least two modelers who, attempting to learn the
PFE reefer car mods, their numbering changes, their paint schemes along with
when they existed, are now in places like Sunnybrook Rest Home. One of them
has to be kept in a separate guarded facility because he tried to bite an
attendant when the attendant asked him if he had ever seen the Pacific
Ocean.

Bruce Smith says about the Red Caboose R-30-12 and R-30-12-9:

> Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and
> I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be
> the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height
> actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka
> R-30-9).

I think that is correct.

"As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with
ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme."

I'm not sure why the R-30-12 would be wrongly painted. While the R-30-13's
were apparently renumbered prior to scrapping [ PFE book, pg 100 ], there is
no such statement with regard to the 12's. PFE book, pg 98 indicates 284 12
and 13's made it to 1950 under their original numbers. There is no telling
what paint scheme these survived with...although one might assume few would
be in the Overland scheme but I wouldn't want to bet my Key Big Boys on
that. In fact, the Big Boy Collection video...which contains the infamous
train of 36 SP box cars...also has a train with a wood PFE reefer with the
single UP medallion in 1953. Is it the Overland? I'll check. The PFE book,
pg 387 shows an Overland medallion in 1948. Now, that's only 6 yrs after the
Overland [ without "System" ] was removed from the medallion. Red Caboose
kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without "System". So, I would
think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion could be found in 1950.

"As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find
any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one
is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies..."

Hmmm. More study may be needed. Now, I notice that R-30-12 kit # 4001-2 has
holes and bolt heads for individual grabs but does not include the grabs,
having ladders instead. It would be easy to build the 12 with individual
grabs...or ladders. OTOH, WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and
bolt heads and the paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.

> Armand - are the bodies the same height?

I'm betting the R-30-12-9 has a side 8 ft high as does the 12. The R-30-9
has an 8.5 ft height.

Mike Brock






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Re: Minnesota Mining & Mfg. boxcar

cinderandeight@...
 

I don't know if I'm at liberty to say who will make it, but I understand
that there will be a resin kit of the 3M cars in the future. I've supplied
a number of photos for it.
Rich Burg
**************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after
instant savings!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819460%3B36680227%3Bi)


Re: Soo Line "Sawtooth" SS Box Car...

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 13, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

I've getting started on a Speedwitch kit for the Soo Line
"Sawtooth" SS box
car. Ted provides an AB brake set but, since these cars were built
in 1923,
it would seem logical that they were originally built with KC
brakes. I'm
modeling one of these cars circa 1939...would they still have KC
brakes (if
my assumption is correct) or would they have been converted to AB
brakes by
then?







I've searched for conclusive photographic evidence, but no luck.
You're right that they were delivered with KC brakes, as several
builder's photos show, but I can't find any in-service photos dating
from earlier than the early 1950s, by which time they all appear to
have been converted to AB brakes. Dennis Storzek may have some more
conclusive information, but the best I can say is that, like most
other RRs., the Soo wasn't eager to spend money during the depression
applying AB brakes to older cars, so you're probably safe in assuming
that the car you're modeling would still have had KC brakes in 1939.


Richard Hendrickson


Re: Minnesota Mining & Mfg. boxcar

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 13, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
I have several and will send a couple of scans off-list.
Are these cars anything like the Train Miniature DS box cars?





Uh, well, they were 40' wood sheathed box cars, but that's about as
far as the resemblance goes. The TM models had the wrong roof, wrong
underframe, wrong doors, and those wide side sills, to say nothing of
their generally ugly and oversize details. I'm not saying you
couldn't rework one into a fairly accurate replica, but IMHO it would
be way more work than it's worth, and straight out of the box the TM
car isn't a remotely acceptable stand-in.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Intermountain bulkhead flat cars

leakinmywaders
 

Hey Jim, can you share which B&O number series these bulkhead flats were? Thnx,

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:



Intermountain was working from provided B&O drawings and photographs. I met with their toolmaker twice in person to iron out details. So I have some confidence they will be accurate for B&O.


Jim Mischke
B&OHS Model Committee


Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

First, Armand...Welcome to the world of PFE. Before you become too involved be aware that I know of at least two modelers who, attempting to learn the PFE reefer car mods, their numbering changes, their paint schemes along with when they existed, are now in places like Sunnybrook Rest Home. One of them has to be kept in a separate guarded facility because he tried to bite an attendant when the attendant asked him if he had ever seen the Pacific Ocean.


Bruce Smith says about the Red Caboose R-30-12 and R-30-12-9:

Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka R-30-9).
I think that is correct.

"As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme."

I'm not sure why the R-30-12 would be wrongly painted. While the R-30-13's were apparently renumbered prior to scrapping [ PFE book, pg 100 ], there is no such statement with regard to the 12's. PFE book, pg 98 indicates 284 12 and 13's made it to 1950 under their original numbers. There is no telling what paint scheme these survived with...although one might assume few would be in the Overland scheme but I wouldn't want to bet my Key Big Boys on that. In fact, the Big Boy Collection video...which contains the infamous train of 36 SP box cars...also has a train with a wood PFE reefer with the single UP medallion in 1953. Is it the Overland? I'll check. The PFE book, pg 387 shows an Overland medallion in 1948. Now, that's only 6 yrs after the Overland [ without "System" ] was removed from the medallion. Red Caboose kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without "System". So, I would think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion could be found in 1950.

"As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies..."

Hmmm. More study may be needed. Now, I notice that R-30-12 kit # 4001-2 has holes and bolt heads for individual grabs but does not include the grabs, having ladders instead. It would be easy to build the 12 with individual grabs...or ladders. OTOH, WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and bolt heads and the paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.

Armand - are the bodies the same height?
I'm betting the R-30-12-9 has a side 8 ft high as does the 12. The R-30-9 has an 8.5 ft height.

Mike Brock


Re: Soo Line "Sawtooth" SS Box Car...

Paul Lyons
 

Jack,

If Richard Hendrickson were at your door with the Prototype Police, I suspect you?would be?better?off with?a K brake on your 1939 Soo boxcar.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Burgess <jack@yosemitevalleyrr.com>
To: Steam Era Freight Cars <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 13 May 2009 7:02 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Soo Line "Sawtooth" SS Box Car...








I've getting started on a Speedwitch kit for the Soo Line "Sawtooth" SS box
car. Ted provides an AB brake set but, since these cars were built in 1923,
it would seem logical that they were originally built with KC brakes. I'm
modeling one of these cars circa 1939...would they still have KC brakes (if
my assumption is correct) or would they have been converted to AB brakes by
then?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

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