Mark,
 
         You can always visit here in Vermont; we measure snoww in feet. That's why I call this my building season. Only 28 resin kits to go on the bench!
 
Fred Freitas
Benninton, VT

On Dec 7, 2008, at 6:56 AM, Allen Cain wrote:

In addition to the Series 19700-19799, what were the other car
numbers in
the series which included the 300 B-9 car built in 1945 which had
black car
cement applied to the roofs?

Allen,
The answer to your question, as well as the original question about
doors on SAL 19797, is found in the STMFC web site roster of 1937 AAR
box cars. In the interest of promoting more accurate scale models, I
will elaborate since the data is available from the Pullman-Standard
bills of materials, a collection of which I obtained in 2002 when the
Bessemer plant (then owned by Trinity Industries) was in process of
closing. These included cars built from 1929 to mid-1947 and mostly
built at the Bessemer plant.

The entire B-9 series included SAL 19700-19999. They were built as two
separate orders of 250 and 50, respectively, with some variations
between the orders.

Lot 5804, 19700-19949, built 9-45. Superior doors 19700-19799,
Youngstown Steel Doors 19800-19949. Running boards/brake steps: Apex
19700-19749, U.S. Gypsum 19750-19849, Blaw-Knox 19850-19949. Ajax hand
brakes. AAR spring plank trucks with chilled wheels.

Lot 5806, 19950-19999, built 10-45. Superior doors, Ajax hand brakes,
U.S.G. R/B & B/S, same trucks as above except one-wear steel wheels.

The B-9 cars were identical to earlier B-8 cars, SAL 19500-19699, built
9-44. These 200 cars had YSD, Ajax hand brakes, Apex R/B & B/S, and AAR
spring plank trucks with one-wear steel wheels. Pullman-Standard
denoted this order (lot 5768) as "Victory Box" as it meant the builder
was permitted to construct the order as all-steel box cars rather than
having to continue building to the emergency design.

Paint specs for B-8 and B-9 cars when built:
DuPont SAL Std. Color #374-822 Frt. Car Paint - Sides, Ends, U/F, Trucks
Black (Car Cement) - Roof
White (Snolite) - Stencils
Fire Plug Red - Monogram Background
Builder's photos for B-8 and B-9 cars (all three available from
Smithsonian Institution) had "The Route of Courteous Service" slogans.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

I'm reviewing my WWII era freight car fleet analysis, and find that
there is a significant gap in 50 foot steel box cars in HO for that
period.

The '43 ORER shows around 31,000 steel 50 footers, and around 20,000
wood 50 footers.

For steel cars, it seems like the only non-resin cars available in HO
are the PRR cars from Bowser.

Am I missing something? Is this because not many 50 footers to that
point were of a common design, hence few models? Is it because
immediate post war 50 footers quickly became the dominant fleet, which
is why everyone is making post-war 50 footers?

And not being very resin literate, any resin recommendations for a
WWII 50 foot steel box fleet (probably need just a few - recognizing
they were only 3.5% of the national boxcar fleet?)

Thanks,
Dave Evans

Steve...

As a point of clarification, the proper title of the book you reference is
Cyclopedia, not Encyclopedia. Perhaps other nit pickers on this list can provide
a better definition, but it is my understanding that an encyclopedia attempts
to cover everything, whereas a cyclopedia focuses on one general subject --
in this case that one subject would be railroad equipment.

Richard Bale


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Thanks for both of your very helpful responses Doug, and to
Richard and Dennis as well. Looks like I have another book to
purchase....after still another bookcase is purchased! While not
surprised that early reefers were tried with only four hinges per
door, it has always surprised me that someone would have reverted to
that practice AFTER 1900, by which time the obvious problems with
only four should have been well documented. Both the NYC and Rutland
(due to NYC control at the time) utilized MDT constructed reefers
that went the opposite way. These cars used EIGHT hinges per door
and, like the four hinge variety, are quite distictive because of it.
I don't have to have a Cudahy car but am interested in having a four
hinge car for the variety and simply wished to have it "right". Some
reworking is not beyond possibility to do so. I was not, however,
even aware that this item had been retooled to utilize working doors.
While I've always been a proponent of operable doors on HO scale box
cars we will have to see how they work out on a reefer. Again,
however, does anyone know of an accurate source of decals (or dry
transfers) for such a car in the post WW II period? They do not have
to be for Cudahy, just a four hinge door car that can be made from
the Atlas model.

I would certainly agree that Atlas could have picked a more common
meat reefer to model and also wish they had. While there are several
of Marty Lofton's "meat fleet" and the Red Caboose Mather cars on
hand there is still the issue of limtied time and trying to model the
whole railroad. Aw well, if I live to 110.......

Thanks again, Don Valentine



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote,
in part:

Four hinges were not as odd as we think, they were found on many

reefers, esp in early years. Manufactures moved to the six hinge

design because it added security that a door would remain in place

if a hinge broke or failed, ie screws pulled out of rotted

wood, enroute.

SNIP

The Atlas model appears to be correct, for one prototype.

Unfortunately they choose a car apparently used by only one company,

than decided it needed operating doors and ice hatches like it's

larger O scale brethren. This lead to oversized hinges. I laid in

a stock of Grandt Line reefer hinges and intend to modify part of

my Atlas reefer fleet by gluing the doors shut and adding new

hinges, 3 per side. Atlas offered the car in a variety of paint

schemes, the schemes appear to be accurate, but none to my

knowledge were used on the Cudahy car, which is why I bought a

bunch of undecs. We all would have been better served if Atlas had

chosen the General American car or another builder who supplied

cars to many meat packer car fleets.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Ed,



In addition to the Series 19700-19799, what were the other car numbers in
the series which included the 300 B-9 car built in 1945 which had black car
cement applied to the roofs?



Thanks, Allen Cain

OOPS I meant 2" of the white stuff.
Mark

Thank You very much Mr. Hawkins.

I had 5 kits to build and this one stumped me as no pictures could be found on the internet.
The list had the SAL, an Erie 40 PS Inter., Erie 50' fur. LL, MP 40' RC and B&O M-26 RC.

With 2' of snow (Bellville, OH)and more on the way its time to put some of these together.

Sincerely, Mark Morgan

On Dec 6, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

Ok, what I think I know based on the posts. Cudahy Reefers with CRLX
reporting marks were owned by the Cudahy Packing company of East
Chicago (In
1957). The Sunshine kit 24.17 is for these cars.
Also, this means the intro paragraph on page 27 of Gene Green's
"Refrigerator Car Color Guide" from Morning Sun is incorrect since he
attributes the CRLX reporting marks to Patrick Cudahy of Wisconsin.

Patrick Cudahy reefers were leased from NRC. I didn't see the photo
in the
NRC section that Dennis mentioned but maybe he was talking about the
Billboard Reefer book, which I do not own.

Do I have this correct?

Yes.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

Patrick Cudahy reefers were leased from NRC. I didn't see the photo

in the

NRC section that Dennis mentioned but maybe he was talking about the
Billboard Reefer book, which I do not own.

Do I have this correct?

Correct, although photos of the NRC cars with the Patrick Cudahy
banner herald have been published elsewhere. Note that this was used
before the company name was officially changed from Cudahy Brothers
Co. to Patrick Cudahy Co.; Patrick Cudahy was one of their brand names.

Dennis

On Dec 6, 2008, at 10:30 PM, Mark Morgan wrote:

I have a IMWX boxcar 40' SAL kit. Car number 19797 class B-9.

What door would this car and did they had black roof?

Thanks

Mark,
Series 19700-19799 had Superior doors. All 300 B-9 cars when built in
1945 had black car cement applied to the roofs. This per
Pullman-Standard bill of materials data.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

I'm reposting this until a new thread title so if anyone wants to ask more
questions we all know which company the discussion is supposed to be about.

Dave Nelson
===============
Ok, so we have the history of Patrick Cudahy, now the other company --
Cudhay Packing of Omaha -- which has this history.

The Irish-born Cudahy brothers started working in the Milwaukee meat
business in the early 1860s; there they met Philip Armour, whom they
followed to Chicago during the 1870s. In the years that followed, the
Cudahys operated small packing plants in Chicago. In 1887, with Armour's
backing, Michael Cudahy and his brothers started an Armour-Cudahy packing
plant in Omaha, Nebraska. The Cudahy Packing Co. was created in 1890, when
Michael bought Armour's interest. Over the next 30 years, the company added
branches across the country, including a cleaning products plant at East
Chicago, Indiana, built in 1909. In 1911, the company's headquarters were
transferred from Omaha to Chicago. By the mid-1920s, Cudahy was one of the
nation's leading food companies, with over $200 million in annual sales and
13,000 employees around the country. Although it was hard hit by the Great
Depression, the company still employed about 1,000 Chicago-area residents
during the mid-1930s. Following World War II, the company moved its
headquarters first to Omaha and, in 1965, to Phoenix, where it took the name
Cudahy Co. During the 1970s, after it was purchased by General Host, Cudahy
was dismantled.
=====================

Now according to my copy of Moody's Industrial's, 1947 edition, the
Armour-Cudahy Packing Company purchased the Jersey City packing plants of
the Nagle Packing Co in 1919, opened large plants in St Paul MN in 1925, San
Diego in 1930, Denver in 1933, Albany GA in 1936. The also owned and
operated the Barry Machinery Co of Chicago, Dow Cheese (WI), Bissel Leather
(MA), The American Salt Company, location unk., and finally it lists the Old
Dutch Cleanser facilities in England and Australia.

Brand names of Puritan, Rex, Gold Coin, Sunlight, and Old Ducth Cleanser.

65 branch houses across the US and overseas.

More details: Slaughter Houses in South Side Omaha, Kansas City, Souix City,
Wichita, North Salt Lake, St Paul, San Diego, Denver, Albany GA.

Other important plants include East Chicao IN -- soap, cleanser, wool
pullery AND reefer construction and repair shops. Leewood TN, refine
vegetable oils; Toronto ON, cleanser; Lyons KS, salt mine. Produce
collection points at Washington Court House, OH, Victoria TX, Fairmount ND,
Neosho MO, New Ulm MN, Alma NE, Fond du Lac WI.

As of the August 1945, the company owns 975 reefers, has 150 more on order,
and 45 tankcars.
==============

So taking all that into consideration, IMO it's reasonable to assume one
might see cars owned by this company moving in and out of major urban
locations anywhere in the US.

There are some discreptencies with what Doug Harding posted. Nothing
significant... Just some variation, perhaps due to the dates of the sources.

Also, Moody's does not list the Patrick Cudahy Company... But that is
probably on account the that company had not sold bonds into the securities
markets.

Further, the 1940 ORER clearly connects the CRLX and COTX car marks with the
Cudahy Packing Company and cites East Chicago IN as the place to send repair
and destroyed notices, with GATX on record as handling interchange and
milage reports.

I think that should clear up a few questions.

Dave Nelson

I have a IMWX boxcar 40' SAL kit. Car number 19797 class B-9.

What door would this car and did they had black roof?

Thanks

Mark

Ok, what I think I know based on the posts. Cudahy Reefers with CRLX
reporting marks were owned by the Cudahy Packing company of East Chicago (In
1957). The Sunshine kit 24.17 is for these cars.
Also, this means the intro paragraph on page 27 of Gene Green's
"Refrigerator Car Color Guide" from Morning Sun is incorrect since he
attributes the CRLX reporting marks to Patrick Cudahy of Wisconsin.

Patrick Cudahy reefers were leased from NRC. I didn't see the photo in the
NRC section that Dennis mentioned but maybe he was talking about the
Billboard Reefer book, which I do not own.

Do I have this correct?

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Richard Hendrickson notes:

"The day when every piece of information known to man can be
googled may be coming, but it ain't here yet."

Maybe not but it probably won't be too long before it is. The problem is, of course, it probably won't be any more correct than those bogus renditions that Atlas has apparently produced. About all it takes to be "a expert" on the internet is to buy a computer.

BTW, just in case anyone is curious, discussions about computers...unless directly associated with a frt car...are out of scope. My point is that, even on the STMFC, anyone can act like "a expert" but the real ones have lengthy credits in places other than the internet...places where their information has been scrutinized by others for validation.

Mike Brock

On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:

Cudahy was also represented in the Boston area at least up
through WW II AFAIK. With that in mind I've had interest in the Atlas
36 ft. meat reefer. It is my understanding, and I'm looking for
correction on this, that the Atlas car was modeled after a Cudahy
prototype, particularly with the odd use of only four hinges for the
two halves of each door. Is this or is it not correct? Also, are
photos available for such cars in other than the "billboard" paint
offered by Atlas and, if so, are decals available. If what I'm
questioning is correct it is a shame that Atlas has offered that
model painted for just about every packing company that ever existed
but, apparently, few that any of us can use and be prototypically
correct as it is also my understanding that Cudahy was about the only
packer that used these oddball prototyes. I'd just like to have a
couple in a later Cudahy paint that is prototyically correct....

I'm always surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't be, by now) when a
lot of speculation and mis-information is posted on a subject which
is well documented. The responses to Don's query are a notable
example. 36" meat reefers with four hinges on each door were not at
all exclusive to Cudahy; large numbers of them were built in the
1920s (as well as 40' cars with the same door hinge arrangement) by
the Pressed Steel Car Co.'s Hegewich, IL plant. North American
Despatch owned many such cars and applied a variety of billboard P/L
schemes to them, and smaller numbers were owned by other leasing
companies (e.g., MDT). There are many photos of these cars in the
Billboard Refrigerator Car book by myself and Ed Kaminski that was
recently published by Signature Press. For the Cudahy cars, see pp.
39-40 and 180; for the NADX cars, see pp. 50-59. Other examples are
scattered elsewhere in the book. That's not to say that some of the
Atlas models aren't bogus - a bunch of them are - but some are
correct (except for the model's unfortunate shortcomings) and the
book shows many other examples that Atlas hasn't yet produced, but
could. This is yet another instance where what you want to know may
not be on the internet but is readily available elsewhere. The book
has been widely advertised and reviewed, and if you don't want to buy
it, then any library should be able to get a copy via interlibrary
loan. The day when every piece of information known to man can be
googled may be coming, but it ain't here yet.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Jim---

Best suggestion that I have is to use it for a car body shed on the
ground. True Line Trains (Life-Like Canada's successor) has advertised
a re-make of this car, and the photos in their ad show it to be a very
nice model.

Good idea, but I model Maine two footers and this is supposed to help
me represent a standard gauge train in Farmington where there wasn't
such a shed. I knew about the plans for True Line to redo this car
and still hope it happens. However, the owner announced here a couple
of weeks ago that the project is on hold indefinitely due to errors in
the tooling and expenses mounting up. So I bought this on a whim,
not knowing that it didn't come with a frame. Live and learn. -Jim

They were definitely two separate companies although genetically
connected back in the nineteenth century. When I did my pitch on NRC
last year, my opening slide
was called "Cudahy Confusion" to explain this before anyone raised
their hand

Roger Hinman

Some years ago I purchased some pretty fine etched metal Pennsy detail parts (Keystone, locomotive, trust plates, etc.) from a supplier that I believe was Schuykill Division. Does anyone know whether they are still in business, or more importantly, are their fine parts still available?

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento