Date   
Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Less Than Carload Shipments

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Gang;

I can only speak to correspondence I have seen on the PRR, but I think many RRs had the same general experience. PRR came on strong with dedicated LCL cars right around 1947/48/49. Several classes were built new or refurbished, with swanky new paint jobs (see attached).

The trouble was folks were moving to trucks for LCL-ish freight, it could come to a location nearby, or even at your location, and the upgrade of roads and highways was making it easier to steal traffic from the RRs. Damage claims were high.

Pair this with the closure of more and more freight stations to receive LCL, and employees that had no experience with moving cars from one location to another quickly, and you had a losing business line.

PRR kept cars in LCL P&L long after they had been re-assigned to general service. A handful soldiered on into the sixties, in truly ghastly P&L.

Auto parts were an entirely different story, but that is, as they say, a completely different story.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 10:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Less Than Carload Shipments

Regarding LCL shipments----

My then two favorite RRs in western New York were the WAG and the E-L (ERIE). The small road depended on the larger with interchange at Wellsville. The E-L ceased sometime in 1963, past our timeframe. Both roads visibly performed this service and it should not be ignored or forgotten in modeling considerations.

Regards from Grove City, Penna. Mike Schleigh

On Monday, August 5, 2019, 8:07:26 PM EDT, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:


Appreciating that there may still be some less-than-carload business on the rails, when were the railroads substantially out of the LCL business?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Metal Wheels

Schleigh Mike
 

More points on this topic----

It was mentioned earlier that the 'truing' tool for dressing up the axle pockets in the backs of side frames is useful.  And it is.  It is also vital for finishing several of the cast-brass and other metal truck kits that have been available over the years.  A sub-set of these might be considered the brass trucks on imported cars and tenders.  Some of these can be vastly improved carefully using this tool.  Further, the many axle lengths offered by ReBox have been absolutely the saving finish to these efforts.  Let us hope these various wheel sets remain available.

One other point:  Using an axle that is too short in the fixed dimension between the respective journals has the tendency to lower the car sitting above.  If replacing the functioning axle, measure it and use something equal or close.  If you choose one too long, the truck will not roll well.  Again, the ReBox choices are VERY helpful.

Regards--Mike Schleigh  Grove City, Penna.

On Monday, August 5, 2019, 9:21:52 PM EDT, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



The Kato ASF trucks David mentions take .950 Reboxx replacement axles. The trucks
roll far better with the Reboxx axles too - with a car on top of them! The Reboxx
"roll tester" tested only UNLOADED trucks. Performance can be very different under
a load. The Kato ASF trucks with factory wheel sets under load did not dazzle. The
Tahoe ASF 70-ton trucks under a load are dazzling.

Some Atlas trucks have very short axles too.

The larger Reboxx sizes were for the TENS OF MILLIONS of Athearn sideframes out there. :-)

Tim O'Connor



On 8/5/2019 6:37 PM, Tangent Scale Models via Groups.Io wrote:

Denny S. Anspach, MD wrote:

"I note that neither Tangent and Rapido (nor Intermountain for that matter) publish axle dimensions, so one has no idea -none, nada, zip- whether they are 0.990” or 1.020”, a vast difference that commonly presages vast and critical differences in expected or desired performance..."

Denny, as has been stated on this list in the past, Tangent Scale Models does indeed disclose the axle lengths for our wheels on our website and has since 2008 when we first offered our fine wheels for sale.  Click on any one of the links for the wheels here and the axle length is disclosed: https://www.tangentscalemodels.com/product-category/wheelsets/

As you will see, the Tangent 33" wheels have a 1.002" length which is a highly useful length for most normal applications beyond those found in Tangent trucks.  We appreciate the kind comments on this list in recent days about our wheelsets.  The "oddball" lengths that require Reboxx have really fallen by the wayside in recent years due to more consistent, modern CAD-based truck designs found on today's trucks.  Today's trucks generally look and operate better than the trucks that the Reboxx line was designed for, meaning you can get significant mileage from the replacement weelsets from brands like Tangent, especially with the opportunity to purchase 100-count packages.

Best wishes,

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models (who recently used Reboxx wheels in KATO trucks on a personal model, which have a very different standard but which also date from the 1990s)

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Less Than Carload Shipments

Schleigh Mike
 

Regarding LCL shipments----

My then two favorite RRs in western New York were the WAG and the E-L (ERIE).  The small road depended on the larger with interchange at Wellsville.  The E-L ceased sometime in 1963, past our timeframe.  Both roads visibly performed this service and it should not be ignored or forgotten in modeling considerations.

Regards from Grove City, Penna.   Mike Schleigh

On Monday, August 5, 2019, 8:07:26 PM EDT, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Appreciating that there may still be some less-than-carload business on the rails, when were the railroads substantially out of the LCL business?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Monon

Schleigh Mike
 

Hello Group!

Not to be too detailed but I think the [27" GRAY] might be misleading.  GRAY is obvious but I believe that 27" refers to the vertical height of that gray stripe.  It is not some reference number to a particular paint.  Still helpful information.

Regards from Mike Schleigh in Summery Grove City in western Penna.

On Tuesday, August 6, 2019, 9:15:19 AM EDT, Michael Aufderheide <MononInMonon@...> wrote:


<<Here's the painting diagram for the 50' DD and says 27" GRAY
Chad Boas>>

Bingo!  Chad, you've got all the good stuff! :>)

Mike

Re: Less Than Carload Shipments

Thomas Evans
 

I did ship a box containing a heavy roundhouse light from Rock Ford, Colorado, to Rosslyn, Virginia, by LCL (ATSF & PRR) some time in the mid/late 1960's.  It took at least a month to get there, and I suspect it went all the way by truck.  There were agents at both stations, but I didn't see anything else in either freight house.

Tom

Re: Monon

 

<<Here's the painting diagram for the 50' DD and says 27" GRAY
Chad Boas>>

Bingo!  Chad, you've got all the good stuff! :>)

Mike

Re: Trouble shooting a freight car

Charles Peck
 

I would suggest removing the trucks and threading the screws back into the holes. Examine to see if the screws are in square to the bolster.  It is possible that a screw has been installed crooked.
Chuck Peck

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 5:52 AM Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Jared

Remove the trucks and sight along the under frame the make sure the mounting points are square, if they are not you may have to remove the under frame and make it true of failing that a thin shim in the truck mount/mounts just enough to square them up. 

Paul Doggett.  England 


On 6 Aug 2019, at 10:41, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:

Hi Jared and Alex,


Not to start a argument, But I think it's far more likely that the underframe isn't mounted correctly, or that there may be flash from the molding process.


I, personally have never seen an aftermarket brand of replacement trucks fail. I will admit to a limited- sized roster, (75 cars, or so) to base my assessment on. 

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On August 5, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alexander Schneider Jr <aschneiderjr@...> wrote:

Jared, I suggest you remove the trucks from the underbody and try them under another car. If it also lists the problem is the trucks. If it does not the problem is the underbody.

 

My guess is that Rapido will exchange the trucks, but may not have another car to give you.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jared Harper
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2019 9:15 PM
To: REALSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Trouble shooting a freight car

 

At the Collinsville RPM meet I "won" a Rapido NP Pre-War USRA DS box car.  It is a beautiful model except for one thing, it lists to one side.  I am not so great at troubleshooting freight car problems.  Do any of you have a suggestion as to how I should correct this list.?

 

Jared Harper

Athens, GA

 



 


 

Re: CV 41000-41499

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Dave is correct. The location is Gorham, not Gore. It's been a long time since I was there, and my memory for place names is getting fuzzy.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/6/19 1:47 AM, Dave Parker via Groups.Io wrote:

Brian:

There is  a surviving car -- 41146 -- in Gorham, NH.  If you Google it, you will likely find some photos on the WWW.  If not, I can can send you some of mine.  It does not have  a running board.  I have three photos with 1960-61 reweigh dates, and they all show wooden running boards.

AFAIK, all 500 cars were built with the end doors, as there is nothing to contradict this in the ORERs.

The CSF trucks have three visible springs (probably a 6-spring package), but the cars were only rated at 85,000 lbs, so they were nominally 50-ton trucks.  I have never seen one with any type of replacement truck, and I am not aware of an exact match for the originals in HO

As an aside, the Pressed Steel builder's photo for this series shows a lever-style handbrake, although the later pictures all show Ajax.  I'm afraid I have no idea as to when they were refitted, but Marty McGuirk might.

Last, I cannot reexamine my F&C kit until tomorrow evening, but my notes on it suggest that the Hutchins roof may not be 100% accurate.  The Sylvan (now Yarmouth) Hutchins roof might offer a fix if you feel like doing some bashing.  I have not yet undertaken my copy of the kit, so am not sure exactly what would be involved.

Hope this helps, but feel free to contact me off-list at spottab at yahoo dot com if you would like some better photos than what came with your kit.

Best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: CV 41000-41499

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Brian,

Do these two photos help? Both are cars on display at Gore, New Hampshire. Ignore the skylights.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/19 11:35 PM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote:
I need some help from the CV experts. I picked up the F&C CV 1 1/2 Door autocar with end doors, (their name) kit 6651. I believe this was originally the steam shack kit produced for them by F&C. The instructions are what I would call early F&C so they are pretty useless with respect to prototype data. There is not one photo in the instructions.

I know very little about the CV. What I do know is the 41000-41499 series still consisted of 471 in July 1957. This was 59.8% of their fleet at the time. Did all 500 cars have end doors? What trucks should be used and were the wood running board retained through the life of the cars? 

Brian Carlson 

WP Dispatch Service [was Less Than Carload Shipments]

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

So called "merchandise service" was a rear-guard solution to dwindling LCL revenues used by some railroads. What this meant on each railroad probably differed, but on the Western Pacific and subsidy Sacramento Northern this term applied specifically to expedited shipments from manufacturers or wholesale houses in San Francisco and Oakland to retail merchants in Sacramento and smaller near-by cities, Woodland, Yuba City/Marysville, Chico and Oroville. This traffic was already being eroded by truckers using newly-paved state highways by the mid-1930s (and some of the cut-rate truckers were unregulated pirates). Thus the WP's green "Merchandise Dispatch" boxcars.

These were just 15 cars which went into service in 1941. They were drawn from the road's newest boxcars, the 9' 6" IH steel series 20001-20200. The 15 cars were chosen at random, re-equipped for passenger service, painted green with yellow lettering and a jazzy stripe, and renumbered 220001-220200.

The service operated five days a week, with four cars being spotted for evening loading at the San Francisco freight house. They were given priority on the next available tug/barge to Oakland where they were topped off (some of this freight came probably from a large Montgomery-Wards distribution warehouse in Oakland). The cars were added to Train 12, the Feather River Express for a noon departure. The first car was dropped in Sacramento and switched across town to the SN's freight house, with a company truck ready there to serve Woodland. The second and third cars were dropped at Marysville, and one was moved to the SN
's Marysville freight house for local unloading, with the other forwarded to Chico on the SN's night freight. The fourth car was dropped at Oroville, and moved again by the SN to their downtown freight house. All cars were unloaded the next day with goods either ready for pick-up or forwarded by truck to outlying merchants. Thus all the freight could be in the hands of retail merchants within 48 hours of their orders being placed (excepting weekends and holidays). Not bad for that era. The empty cars were sent back to Oakland WP via freight train 53 for inspection and return to San Francisco by barge to start the cycle over. It took just 12 cars being loaded or in motion on any day to fill the service, with three spares to cover repairs or the inevitable Christmas rush.

Apparently this service was not very profitable, but the WP was soon locked in by WWII. Fuel restrictions on truck competition might have helped the bottom line a bit, but during the war years there were a lot fewer consumer goods available to ship. Merchandise Dispatch service ended in 1948, with the cars de-passengerized, repainted back to FCR, and the extra "2" dropped from their numbers. Apparently it took a while to gather up all the cars and get them shopped, as at least one car is known to have been seen off WP rails in green paint and might have been the lone car still listed in the July 1949 ORER.

The green boxcars have been offered in model form by a number of manufacturers or repainters, and apparently snapped up by modelers. I was given one of the IMWX examples, but stripped it since it didn't fit my era. None of the model cars were correct, since nobody has ever offered a correct model of the 9' 6" cars (the series was a one-off), unless Sunshine did them. The joke on modelers is that these cars were in restricted service and not allowed for general loading or off-line service, save for a brief window circa 1949 when Dispatch service ended.

I have original typescript duplicates of much of the correspondence regarding this service spanning several years given to me by the late Jeff Moreau. I planned to write a story for the WPHS HEADLIGHT, but the project never materialized due to a lack of photos (i have just one original photo of a Dispatch car on the SN in my collection). This is a story that has never been recorded in any of the WP books. It has occurred to me that this material needs to go to the WPHS before I die and these papers are lost.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 8/5/19 10:37 PM, James SANDIFER wrote:

Santa Fe entered the trucking business in the late 30s which greatly reduced shipping time. Most (not all) LCL on the Howard Branch was by truck by WWII. 

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:19 PM, Jared Harper
I do not have my Kalmbach book on LCL and express but does it give any info. as to when LCL was discontinued.?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Re: Trouble shooting a freight car

Paul Doggett
 

Jared

Remove the trucks and sight along the under frame the make sure the mounting points are square, if they are not you may have to remove the under frame and make it true of failing that a thin shim in the truck mount/mounts just enough to square them up. 

Paul Doggett.  England 


On 6 Aug 2019, at 10:41, Scott H. Haycock <shhaycock@...> wrote:

Hi Jared and Alex,


Not to start a argument, But I think it's far more likely that the underframe isn't mounted correctly, or that there may be flash from the molding process.


I, personally have never seen an aftermarket brand of replacement trucks fail. I will admit to a limited- sized roster, (75 cars, or so) to base my assessment on. 

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On August 5, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alexander Schneider Jr <aschneiderjr@...> wrote:

Jared, I suggest you remove the trucks from the underbody and try them under another car. If it also lists the problem is the trucks. If it does not the problem is the underbody.

 

My guess is that Rapido will exchange the trucks, but may not have another car to give you.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jared Harper
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2019 9:15 PM
To: REALSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Trouble shooting a freight car

 

At the Collinsville RPM meet I "won" a Rapido NP Pre-War USRA DS box car.  It is a beautiful model except for one thing, it lists to one side.  I am not so great at troubleshooting freight car problems.  Do any of you have a suggestion as to how I should correct this list.?

 

Jared Harper

Athens, GA

 



 


 

Re: Trouble shooting a freight car

Scott H. Haycock
 

Hi Jared and Alex,


Not to start a argument, But I think it's far more likely that the underframe isn't mounted correctly, or that there may be flash from the molding process.


I, personally have never seen an aftermarket brand of replacement trucks fail. I will admit to a limited- sized roster, (75 cars, or so) to base my assessment on. 

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On August 5, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alexander Schneider Jr <aschneiderjr@...> wrote:

Jared, I suggest you remove the trucks from the underbody and try them under another car. If it also lists the problem is the trucks. If it does not the problem is the underbody.

 

My guess is that Rapido will exchange the trucks, but may not have another car to give you.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jared Harper
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2019 9:15 PM
To: REALSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Trouble shooting a freight car

 

At the Collinsville RPM meet I "won" a Rapido NP Pre-War USRA DS box car.  It is a beautiful model except for one thing, it lists to one side.  I am not so great at troubleshooting freight car problems.  Do any of you have a suggestion as to how I should correct this list.?

 

Jared Harper

Athens, GA

 



 


 

Re: CV 41000-41499

Dave Parker
 

Brian:

There is  a surviving car -- 41146 -- in Gorham, NH.  If you Google it, you will likely find some photos on the WWW.  If not, I can can send you some of mine.  It does not have  a running board.  I have three photos with 1960-61 reweigh dates, and they all show wooden running boards.

AFAIK, all 500 cars were built with the end doors, as there is nothing to contradict this in the ORERs.

The CSF trucks have three visible springs (probably a 6-spring package), but the cars were only rated at 85,000 lbs, so they were nominally 50-ton trucks.  I have never seen one with any type of replacement truck, and I am not aware of an exact match for the originals in HO

As an aside, the Pressed Steel builder's photo for this series shows a lever-style handbrake, although the later pictures all show Ajax.  I'm afraid I have no idea as to when they were refitted, but Marty McGuirk might.

Last, I cannot reexamine my F&C kit until tomorrow evening, but my notes on it suggest that the Hutchins roof may not be 100% accurate.  The Sylvan (now Yarmouth) Hutchins roof might offer a fix if you feel like doing some bashing.  I have not yet undertaken my copy of the kit, so am not sure exactly what would be involved.

Hope this helps, but feel free to contact me off-list at spottab at yahoo dot com if you would like some better photos than what came with your kit.

Best regards,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

Room sharer wanted for Chicago RPM in October

Andy Carlson
 

Ever on the cheap, I am looking for someone to share a Lyle Chicago RPM meet event hotel room for three nights. I am a non-smoker and will not be selling items from the room. WED night through SAT morning.
Thanks!
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

CV 41000-41499

Brian Carlson
 

I need some help from the CV experts. I picked up the F&C CV 1 1/2 Door autocar with end doors, (their name) kit 6651. I believe this was originally the steam shack kit produced for them by F&C. The instructions are what I would call early F&C so they are pretty useless with respect to prototype data. There is not one photo in the instructions.

I know very little about the CV. What I do know is the 41000-41499 series still consisted of 471 in July 1957. This was 59.8% of their fleet at the time. Did all 500 cars have end doors? What trucks should be used and were the wood running board retained through the life of the cars? 

Brian Carlson 

Re: Trouble shooting a freight car

Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Jared, I suggest you remove the trucks from the underbody and try them under another car. If it also lists the problem is the trucks. If it does not the problem is the underbody.

 

My guess is that Rapido will exchange the trucks, but may not have another car to give you.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jared Harper
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2019 9:15 PM
To: REALSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Trouble shooting a freight car

 

At the Collinsville RPM meet I "won" a Rapido NP Pre-War USRA DS box car.  It is a beautiful model except for one thing, it lists to one side.  I am not so great at troubleshooting freight car problems.  Do any of you have a suggestion as to how I should correct this list.?

 

Jared Harper

Athens, GA

Re: Less Than Carload Shipments

James SANDIFER
 


Santa Fe entered the trucking business in the late 30s which greatly reduced shipping time. Most (not all) LCL on the Howard Branch was by truck by WWII. 

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:19 PM, Jared Harper
<harperandbrown@...> wrote:
I do not have my Kalmbach book on LCL and express but does it give any info. as to when LCL was discontinued.?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Re: Metal Wheels

leakinmywaders
 

To tie up a loose end per the earlier mention of Tahoe Model Works trucks, according to their maker they were tooled for and as a rule have been supplied with InterMountain Ry wheel sets. 

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT 

Re: Less Than Carload Shipments

Jared Harper
 

I do not have my Kalmbach book on LCL and express but does it give any info. as to when LCL was discontinued.?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Trouble shooting a freight car

Jared Harper
 

At the Collinsville RPM meet I "won" a Rapido NP Pre-War USRA DS box car.  It is a beautiful model except for one thing, it lists to one side.  I am not so great at troubleshooting freight car problems.  Do any of you have a suggestion as to how I should correct this list.?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA