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Re: GM&O and A&WP colors
Steve SANDIFER
Oddball also had Farmall decals. I put them on my tractors and painted the silver on wheels and exhaust.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:36 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GM&O and A&WP colors
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Re: Photo: Milwaukee Road Silk Train
Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
Don Valentine inquires whether or not HO brass importer Beaver Creek produced a silk car. Yes, they produced a very nice model of a quite distinct and handsome SP car, a boxed one of which resides on my off-stage “For Sale” shelf as we speak. The California State Railroad museum has the body of one (the only?) stored at the SRR historic site in Jamestown, CA (it played a completely unheralded part and a turning point in the successful across-the-table negotiations with the SP that underpinned the founding of the CSRM- a story for another time). If my memory is correct, these cars were also used for high value tea shipments.
The Milwaukee photo -I believe- is probably another of several Milwaukee silk trains recorded on photographs by Asahel Curtis, a Seattle photographer who was often engaged by the Milwaukee at the time. The photo currently depicted looks to me like it has been altered for effect, showing an endless length of identical baggage cars longer than what other Bipolar-led silk train photos show might be more likely. Other of Curtis’s photos show that the more common Milwaukee silk cars (added to the baggage cars were drawn from two series of low slung wood ice express reefers from the Milwaukee Shops in 1912 (and 13?), specifically built and so lettered for “Fish Service” These very possibly were among the very first true “express reefers” , and they constituted and remained the Milwaukee’s only express reefers -aside from a few rib sided one-offs in later years- until their final demise as milk cars post WWII. I do not believe that they ever went off line, and they were rarely photographed. Al Kalmbach loved these cars, Walthers made decals, and elevation plans were published in the earliest of MRs (1934?), and then subsequently in serial volumes of the MR Cyclopedia. They never made it to a kit, or to brass (in the pipeline at Shoreham Shops when they closed down). It would be a matter of semantics to argue one way or another whether silk trains were freight or passenger. The cars used were built and designed to be used in passenger-like service, and the trains operated on passenger train schedules. Of course, the lading was…freight! Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Re: Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer?
charles slater
Bob I think the Rr-56 would be the best one. There were more of them and 1955 would catch more modelers, and they lasted as box cars in the Bx-202 class until the 1980's.
Charlie Slater
Sent from Outlook
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 11:29 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer? Anyone Want A First Generation SFRD Mechanical Reefer? I am good friends with a person working for a major model manufacturer. His area of expertise is product development. For years he and I have been discussing the possibility of bringing to market an accurate HO scale first generation SFRD mechanical refrigerator car. The cut-off year would be 1960. The car would be produced in styrene and probably only in R-T-R form. From our discussions this project almost came to fruition a few years ago but stalled due to competition from other projects. Times have changed and now this has become a real possibility. There are "foobie" cars offered by Athearn and Walthers, but I share a belief with others that there is a market for a more accurate car. First, I want to hear from you which first generation mechanical reefer is of most interest to you and specifically why you are interested in a particular car. Your choices are the following SFRD classes: Rr-31 (5 cars - 1955) Rr-54 (30 cars - 1953 Rr-56 (150 cars -1955) Rr-60 (25 Cars - 1958 Rr-61 (25 Cars - 1958) Rr-65 (100 cars - 1960) Rr-66 (100 cars - 1960) I'm fairly certain there are builder's drawings of all these classes but that will need to be verified. Factors influencing the manufacturer's decision will be how many paint/repaint schemes are possible (including MOW), and cost of modifying the tooling to produce insulated boxcar versions and cars representing other railroads. Once the manufacturer selects one of these choices I will ask you to submit your photos, especially those with dates, so the manufacturer can evaluate paint schemes and modifications to the as-built prototype. If there is enough good prototype information available there is a real probability a specific car will be produced. Thank you. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Speaking of decals
Thanks for the heads up Gary, good to know Fenton
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 1:51 PM Gary Bechdol <garyeb1947@...> wrote:
--
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Re: Striker Castings
Brian Stokes
The Southern document does look very much like what is in the 1919 CBC drawing but in much better and more legible detail.
Sounds like it really depends on the builder and road - and unfortunately, I haven't found any info on who built the El Paso & Southwestern gons yet. This gives me a good place to start though, between the drawing and the opposite side detail photos that David linked to. Bob, I'd love to get some of those drawings so I can detail the doors once they are available. Thanks all! -- Brian Stokes https://northpoint48.blogspot.com/
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Re: Speaking of decals
Gary Bechdol
Fenton: I ordered several sets of ACL steam locomotive decals from K4. I had twp locomotive professionally painted, but when the painter applied the white decals, the printing was so thin that the decal did not show up on the black locomotives. Even doubling up the decals did not help. Maybe I had an early set, but before you try decaling a car, do a test first on a piece of scrap using the paint color you are applying to the car. Gary Bechdol Stone Mountain, GA
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:30 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
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Re: Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory
Andy Cich
Ted Culotta’s Prototype Railroad Modeling – Volume Four has an extensive article on kitbashing the R-40-14. http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/prototype-railroad-modeling-volume-four/
The kitbash basically consists of Intermountain parts and modified Details West ends. Stan’s kit probably had castings of the modified ends. Anyway, the article is probably useful for building Stan’s kit as well as doing the kitbash.
Andy Cich
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:53 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory
PFE R40-14. Which is basically an R40-10 with "W" corner posts/rounf corners, right? I have an HO kit for one from Stan Rydarowwicz that I pulley's doff the shelf to look at just last week!
Regards, Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
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Re: Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray can
One good thing from this discussion, I will be exploring Spruebrothers as another option for tools and paints.
Modeling SP Early 1950's in the Walnut Creak...
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Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo
Even the scrap is interesting. Truck side frames and a
pile of Bettendorf center sills!
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of spsalso via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:11 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo Thanks for doing a test-run on my process. Of course, the result would imply that the adjacent truck on the hopper would also have a 6' - 6" wheelbase, since you demonstrated that they match. While the journals, wheel faces, and car sides aren't in the same plane, they're pretty close in this picture. I'm guessing the car is at least 500' from the photographer. The difference in distance from the car side to the wheel face is 2 1/2 feet. So the "correction factor" would be .005. And the car angle isn't so far off that the proportions of the dimensions of interest would not still be linear. I think. As the "length" of the car side shrinks with rotation, so does the "length" of the wheelbase. Proportionally. My continued re-examination of this photo has revealed to me a steam locomotive cab, in the foreground, that appears to be used for a warm-weather break room (no heat, covered windows). And judging by the remaining snow, warm weather is still in the future. A wonderful photograph. Ed Edward Sutorik
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Re: Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray can
Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
HI Ben,
Thanks for informing me, I will have a look
Claus Schlund
From: Benjamin
Hom
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 1:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray
can Claus Schlund wrote:
"To which I say – thank goodness this is no longer possible! I often use isopropyl alcohol when applying weathering watercolor paints, and the isopropyl alcohol used to react with Dullcote and yield a chalky colored finish, even when I allowed time for a long-term curing of the Dullcote for weeks. This is typically what I did NOT want for most freight cars. While I agree it can be an asset in some specialized cases, it was typically a problem for me." You do realize this process is controllable, right? Mike Rose wrote several articles and filmed how-to videos on how to use this effect on more recent rolling stock, showing how to both apply and reverse the effect. Ben Hom
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Re: Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray can
Benjamin Hom
Claus Schlund wrote: "To which I say – thank goodness this is no longer possible! I often use isopropyl alcohol when applying weathering watercolor paints, and the isopropyl alcohol used to react with Dullcote and yield a chalky colored finish, even when I allowed time for a long-term curing of the Dullcote for weeks. This is typically what I did NOT want for most freight cars. While I agree it can be an asset in some specialized cases, it was typically a problem for me." You do realize this process is controllable, right? Mike Rose wrote several articles and filmed how-to videos on how to use this effect on more recent rolling stock, showing how to both apply and reverse the effect. Ben Hom
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Re: Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray can
Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Hi Bob and List Members,
Bob wrote: “One trick I used to be able to do with Dullcote was to spray
gray cement hoppers with it and then spray 70 percent isopropyl alcohol on the
hopper a few minutes later. When dry this produced a nice chalky base from which
to do further weathering. This no longer is possible.”
To which I say – thank goodness this is no longer possible! I often use
isopropyl alcohol when applying weathering watercolor paints, and the isopropyl
alcohol used to react with Dullcote and yield a chalky colored finish, even when
I allowed time for a long-term curing of the Dullcote for weeks. This is
typically what I did NOT want for most freight cars. While I agree it can be an
asset in some specialized cases, it was typically a problem for me.
Claus Schlund
From: Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:25 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tamiya Flat Clear TS-80 spray
can As
far as rattle cans go, I'm with Nelson on this: Tamiya and sometimes Krylon.
Tamiya gives a finer spray compared to Dullcote and Model Masters. The formula for Dullcote apparently was altered a few years ago and the current formula just doesn't seem to produce the same quality finish or as much "tooth" for weathering. One trick I used to be able to do with Dullcote was to spray gray cement hoppers with it and then spray 70 percent isopropyl alcohol on the hopper a few minutes later. When dry this produced a nice chalky base from which to do further weathering. This no longer is possible. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory
PFE R40-14. Which is basically an R40-10 with "W" corner posts/rounf corners, right? I have an HO kit for one from Stan Rydarowwicz that I pulley's doff the shelf to look at just last week!
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 10:38 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory A 1941 photo from the University of Washington Digital Archives: https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/imlsmohai/id/5747/rec/6 Description: "Pacific Car and Foundry (later called PACCAR) originally made its name building railroad cars for the logging industry. Between 1920 and 1939, the firm's sales of railroad cars dropped from 88% of its business to only 4%. This changed in 1941 when the Pacific Fruit Express Company ordered 1,000 refrigerated freight cars from Pacific Car. In August 1941, the mile-long assembly line turned out a finished car every 40 minutes. In this August 1941 photo, taken at the Pacific Car and Foundry railroad car plant, workmen paint the refrigerated cars ordered by Pacific Fruit Express." Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: GM&O and A&WP colors
Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
You can add B&M, NH and Rutland to your list of black gons for our era, Bill Cordially, Don Valentine
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Atlas 50' Postwar AAR Box Cars
Ed Hawkins
STMFC Members, Recent discussion on the STMFC has included postwar AAR 50’ box cars having a straight side sill reinforcement extending end to end for connecting the bolsters, crossbearers, and crossties. An original Branchline Trains model that was appropriate for NYC having the side sill reinforcement extending from bolster to bolster was also used incorrectly for box car models of the following railroads having 8’ door openings, diagonal panel roof, riveted sides with 16 side sheets (8 on each side of the door), and Improved Dreadnaught ends of two variants built in 1950-1954 or 1955 & later. Erie 63000-63199, 200 cars, built Erie-Dunmore ca. 3-54 (various series re# 1954-1956) GAEX 100000-112009, 339 cars built GATC late 1950, leased to various railroads NP 31000-31499, 500 cars built NP-Brainerd ca. 9-50 NP 1100-1295, former 31000-31499 196 re# cars ca. 1954-1957, DF, painted green T&P 71800-71859, 60 cars built T&P-Marshall 4-56, plus 31 additional cars 74134-74172 (not inclusive) Other similar cars came having a straight side sill reinforcement came with Z-U diagonal panel roofs. C&S 900-924, 25 cars built CB&Q-Havelock in 8-58 CB&Q 23000-23099, 100 cars built CB&Q-Havelock ca. 9-55 Models offered to date can be modified by filling in 4 notches (2 per side), however, that requires matching paint on painted models. Several years ago Atlas was contacted with a proposal for tooling a pair of truly straight end-to-end side sill reinforcement inserts that would be correct for the above cars (i.e., without any notches). At the time Atlas contacted their Chinese supplier as to the cost of the tooling & indicated the cost would be minimal. However, to date, the tooling has not been produced. It’s apparent that Atlas might need some additional encouragement from STMFC modelers. In addition to the above-mentioned as-built cars, there would also be a number of repaints to include some beyond the scope of the STMFC. Modelers interested in supporting Atlas to produce RTR models having the full-length side sill reinforcement should contact Atlas by completing a request at https://shop.atlasrr.com/contactus.aspx Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Re: Speaking of decals
By the way has anyone used the K4 decals out of Dayton OH. I stumbled across them on eBay and ordered about 10 different sets. They have some nice C&NJ, ACL( a surprising variety of ACL) and others including some interesting private tank cars that I needed for future projects. I haven't use them yet but they are pretty crisply printed and look good on paper. I'll et you know when I do the ACL or C&NJ cars coming up in my build shop. If anyone has used them let me know what you think Fenton
On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 12:21 PM Richard Brennan <rbrennan@...> wrote: At 08:05 AM 4/15/2020, Tim O'Connor wrote: --
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Re: Speaking of decals
At 08:05 AM 4/15/2020, Tim O'Connor wrote:
All decals should be compared to good photos! Even a lazy vendor sometimes gets them rightTim has captured the issue: - You can make a decal set that is exactly correct for ONE car... - You can make a set that is relatively correct for a number of cars... - You can put together a herald and some letters/numbers and call it a decal ...and if you really want to find the 'howlers'; Get out your magnifying glass and read the re-weigh data and other fine print (if it exists) on your pad-printed RTR cars!!! Richard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Brennan - TT-west ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Unusual trucks on gon in American Smelting photo
spsalso
Dennis,
Thanks for doing a test-run on my process. Of course, the result would imply that the adjacent truck on the hopper would also have a 6' - 6" wheelbase, since you demonstrated that they match. While the journals, wheel faces, and car sides aren't in the same plane, they're pretty close in this picture. I'm guessing the car is at least 500' from the photographer. The difference in distance from the car side to the wheel face is 2 1/2 feet. So the "correction factor" would be .005. And the car angle isn't so far off that the proportions of the dimensions of interest would not still be linear. I think. As the "length" of the car side shrinks with rotation, so does the "length" of the wheelbase. Proportionally. My continued re-examination of this photo has revealed to me a steam locomotive cab, in the foreground, that appears to be used for a warm-weather break room (no heat, covered windows). And judging by the remaining snow, warm weather is still in the future. A wonderful photograph. Ed Edward Sutorik
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Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory
Photo: Painting New Refrigerator Cars At PACCAR Factory A 1941 photo from the University of Washington Digital Archives: https://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/digital/collection/imlsmohai/id/5747/rec/6 Description: "Pacific Car and Foundry (later called PACCAR) originally made its name building railroad cars for the logging industry. Between 1920 and 1939, the firm's sales of railroad cars dropped from 88% of its business to only 4%. This changed in 1941 when the Pacific Fruit Express Company ordered 1,000 refrigerated freight cars from Pacific Car. In August 1941, the mile-long assembly line turned out a finished car every 40 minutes. In this August 1941 photo, taken at the Pacific Car and Foundry railroad car plant, workmen paint the refrigerated cars ordered by Pacific Fruit Express." Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Speaking of decals
Bob Webber
More importantly, they should include context.
If they do a decal "as built", that should be stated. Far too many photos have NO context. No idea of date, location, etc. which makes lettering more of a crap shoot. Is that a photo of a one off car? A car repaired after collision? A car modified for a specific service? a car modified for a specific event? There are many issues with taking any information from a photo - without context, you simply don't know. It is good for that car on that date. Even multiple photos of multiple cars in a series. The information is simply good for that or those cars. Extrapolating that if it's good for 2, it must be good for 10 is not any more correct than thinking if you see 1 photo, it's good for all cars. Even builders' photos & drawings have to be within context. Drawings typically show exceptions or differences in specific lettering. Some lettering on cars were added after delivery. This is one of the more entertaining issues with model paint discussions. More cars had specific instructions that indicated 5-10 paint specifications than didn't. That is to say, the instructions specifically state 5 - 10 different paint manufacturers to be used for specific ranges or quantities of cars. The actual "color" specified was often different, though they would often state the manuf. number, they would often simply state "freight car" color. Sometimes, they'd provide a drift card or other sample. But...anyone thinking paint is paint and color is color hasn't tried to match colors across manuf. lines. I hear enough about the differences between Scalecoat, Floquil, Tamiya, etc. - scale that up and the differences can be just as absolute. Lettering is often the same. On passenger equipment, there was a LOT of hand painting, even with stencils and such. Those little black outlines were painted by hand. Decals can't match it exactly. The best you can do is state context and origin of information. But...consider - if they didn't take it from a photo, where did they get it? Drawing? - likely correct - for as built or modified. Diagram - so many diagrams are so wrong that this is a crap shoot. Other decals - propagating mistakes is very possible. Existing models? Ditto. Most already DO look at photos, but too many extrapolate. FAR too many photographers take photos of unique instances. Why take that, it's normal, and standard? That has changed a lot in the past few years, but it is something to consider when stating "compare to photos". At 10:05 AM 4/15/2020, Tim O'Connor wrote: All decals should be compared to good photos! Bob Webber
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