Date   

Re: QUESTIONS

Bruce Smith
 

On Sun, December 21, 2008 7:38 am, joel norman wrote:
Gentleman..Merry Chirstmas and a Blessed 2009..
As a early Chirstmas gift I was given a stack of BAR Switch List(called
Conductors Tally)for most of 1961.What I found interesting and odd was
there were a good many SFRD cars.
Joel,

Why do you find this odd? Are they originating, terminating or "bridging"
loads?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

Andy Carlson
 

Ben Hom wrote:

The B&O Class M-53 was one of several prototypes allegedly tooled in
HO by a certain individual back in 2004-2006. Since then, no models
have been produced and no other status is known. This is a big
sticking point, as many injection-molded manufacturers are not
willing to risk investing in models being done by someone else,
especially if it's perceived as a "one road" or "limited appeal"
prototype.

Anyone know more about this situation?

Ben Hom

I was told about this a few years ago. seems that Jerry Porter, the former co-founder of Intermountain railway Co. and later founder of the IMWX Co. started tooling an injection molded one-piece B&O wagon top boxcar in HO. He apparently had some problems with it, and it languished for a few years, unfinished.

The project was offered for sale to a smaller manufacturer who upon inspection, laughed and called the mess a waste of material, only the mold base was deemed salvageable. I don't know the current status, perhaps it was sold for scrap? But the timeline for this goes further back than 2004-2006. Branchline was rumored to be considering a B&O round roof car.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


QUESTIONS

joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

Gentleman..Merry Chirstmas and a Blessed 2009..
As a early Chirstmas gift I was given a stack of BAR Switch List(called
Conductors Tally)for most of 1961.What I found interesting and odd was
there were a good many SFRD cars.
SFRD 18700
17851
12551
10756
Also a car with the reporting marks KPCX(loaded with TAR)anything on
this car?What Id like to know what the SFRD cars were:bunker/mech or
insulated????Since my cut off date is summer 1962(Maine)want to see if
these cars can be modeled in HO.
Hope you can help
Joel Norman--Eastern Maine Rly(aka B&ML)


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
"I agree that Sunshine or F&C's resin kits would give a superior
model. I have one of the Sunshine cars (unbuilt, of course :-D ).
But the original question concerned a plastic kit, and that's what
Cannonball's is."

Dean Payne added:
"I think the original post may have been referring to this from 2005,
which gave me hope that a plastic wagon top would be available in the
foreseeable future:
'Why want a plastic wagon top (besides the already mentioned
Cannonball kit with it's [sic] problems)? I hear the Sunshine is a
bit of a challenge to get the sides on without gaps, the Funaro &
Camerlengo kit is allegedly top-heavy due to the thick sides... It is
available in the M-15K rebuild and M53 versions, which adds some nice
variation. The thing is, they do other more obscure and less
distinctive freight cars in plastic, why not the wagon tops?'"

The B&O Class M-53 was one of several prototypes allegedly tooled in
HO by a certain individual back in 2004-2006. Since then, no models
have been produced and no other status is known. This is a big
sticking point, as many injection-molded manufacturers are not
willing to risk investing in models being done by someone else,
especially if it's perceived as a "one road" or "limited appeal"
prototype.

Anyone know more about this situation?


Ben Hom


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

Charles Hladik
 

About 10 years ago, I tried to convince Life Like to produce a "wagon top",
and was informed that they wanted cars that were bought by at least 10 roads.
I tried to impress the fact of the ubiquitous ness of this car with no luck.
Still today, one sits on the ground at a very small scrap dealer in
Danville, Virginia as a storage shed. It is a faded green with no trucks and no
way to get photos. It's behind a cyclone fence next to US 58 that has no place
to pull off and the folks at the yard are very much less than friendly.
I went with a couple of F&C kits and like them. In O scale, a few years
ago 3rd Rail (Sunset) offered these at $150.00, along with the "wagon top"
covered hopper and caboose at the same price.
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division.

In a message dated 12/21/2008 10:22:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
bakert@andrews.edu writes:






It is interesting that some modelers apparently consider the B&O M-53 wagon
top a model with limited appeal. True enough, the car was unique to the B&O,
but didn't it show up on almost every railroad in the country. We certainly
saw numerous examples on railroads around Minneapolis/O, but didn't it show up
on almost ever&O.

Yes, the car was unique to the B&O; but, like the MILW horizonatally-O;
but, like the MILW horizonatally-<WBR>ribbed cars, so

Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
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Re: New ART steel reefer

Paul Lyons
 

Thanks Ed,

Since I model December 1950, I will but a couple of the kits and use a little modelers license with the re-paint date.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] New ART steel reefer







On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:49 AM, cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:

Jerry,

When were the cars painted in the "classic scheme". I know I have
this somewhere, but I am heading out the door for the day.
Paul,
In answering your question I will do so in a more general way to help
modelers of the 1940s through the 1950s understand their options for
these ART reefers. Some of this may be a rehash of information that's
previously been discussed on the STMFC.

The original lettering scheme used by ART on their steel reefers was
applied to new and repainted cars from 1936 to early 1948, at which
time an interim scheme began use and documented on new cars built in
May and June 1948. Refer to Charlie Duckworth's article in RP CYC
Volume 2, which sheds some light on the subject.

The interim scheme was just like the original scheme except a MP
buzzsaw emblem (red and white with a blue border) was applied to the
left side of the car over the reporting marks and a small Wabash flag
was in the same position on the right side of the car. The interim
scheme was used for only about two years. Photos of repainted ART
reefers in the interim scheme are pretty scarce. Photos of the interim
scheme have been more commonly found on series 26900-27999 that were
built new in mid-1948 and originally lettered in the interim scheme.

The MPHS and Amarillo Railroad Museum is considering producing the
interim scheme, however, we are yet to locate a photo of the prototype
cars built 1939-1944 (original series 24000-24449 with the horizontal
side seams) with this scheme. If the right decals were available for
the buzzsaw and flag, the 1948-1950 interim scheme could easily be
created by using the original model and adding the decals.

Any ART reefers receiving the original scheme as late as 1947 would
have gone into the early 1950s with that scheme before being repainted
with the new post-1950 scheme. Modelers of the 1951-1952 period
(possibly even 1953, but that's starting to stretch it) could
theoretically have all three ART schemes at the same time.

The ART models now being offered wore a scheme first used circa
mid-1950 to the early 1960s. The large Wabash flag drawing was dated
April 1950, however the earliest car I've located with this scheme had
a reweigh date of March 1951. Just like PFE reefers had changes in
their painting and lettering practices, ART did the same during the mid
to late 1950s with the dropping of 1" bars over and under the reporting
marks, dropping the periods in the reporting marks, adding a trademark
symbol next to the Wabash flag, and eventually painting the sides
entirely yellow instead of keeping the black side sill and door
hardware. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Trust Plates

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

The oldest instance I can think of for use of a trust stencil is the
1920 builder's photo of the Soo Line boxcar used to illustrate Camel
No. 30 Top Supported Door hardware in the CBC during the twenties.
I've seen a few pre-1900 painted trust notices, but plates do seem to be more common in that period. Probably depended on what the trustee wanted.

David Thompson


Re: Anybody have any info about Richfield's Tank Car fleet?

Jack Burgess
 

Richfield Oil (ROX) listed 219 tank cars in the 1/43 ORER, and 210 in
1/53. Mostly ARA class III, a few II and IV. I haven't run across any
published photos, which isn't to say they don't exist somewhere. So
keep looking.
Ted Culotta has pictures of ROX 10053 and ROX 676 in his relatively new
book, Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual Volume Two. Both are GATC
design cars...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: New ART steel reefer

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:49 AM, cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:

Jerry,

When were the cars painted in the "classic scheme". I know I have
this somewhere, but I am heading out the door for the day.
Paul,
In answering your question I will do so in a more general way to help
modelers of the 1940s through the 1950s understand their options for
these ART reefers. Some of this may be a rehash of information that's
previously been discussed on the STMFC.

The original lettering scheme used by ART on their steel reefers was
applied to new and repainted cars from 1936 to early 1948, at which
time an interim scheme began use and documented on new cars built in
May and June 1948. Refer to Charlie Duckworth's article in RP CYC
Volume 2, which sheds some light on the subject.

The interim scheme was just like the original scheme except a MP
buzzsaw emblem (red and white with a blue border) was applied to the
left side of the car over the reporting marks and a small Wabash flag
was in the same position on the right side of the car. The interim
scheme was used for only about two years. Photos of repainted ART
reefers in the interim scheme are pretty scarce. Photos of the interim
scheme have been more commonly found on series 26900-27999 that were
built new in mid-1948 and originally lettered in the interim scheme.

The MPHS and Amarillo Railroad Museum is considering producing the
interim scheme, however, we are yet to locate a photo of the prototype
cars built 1939-1944 (original series 24000-24449 with the horizontal
side seams) with this scheme. If the right decals were available for
the buzzsaw and flag, the 1948-1950 interim scheme could easily be
created by using the original model and adding the decals.

Any ART reefers receiving the original scheme as late as 1947 would
have gone into the early 1950s with that scheme before being repainted
with the new post-1950 scheme. Modelers of the 1951-1952 period
(possibly even 1953, but that's starting to stretch it) could
theoretically have all three ART schemes at the same time.

The ART models now being offered wore a scheme first used circa
mid-1950 to the early 1960s. The large Wabash flag drawing was dated
April 1950, however the earliest car I've located with this scheme had
a reweigh date of March 1951. Just like PFE reefers had changes in
their painting and lettering practices, ART did the same during the mid
to late 1950s with the dropping of 1" bars over and under the reporting
marks, dropping the periods in the reporting marks, adding a trademark
symbol next to the Wabash flag, and eventually painting the sides
entirely yellow instead of keeping the black side sill and door
hardware. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Radial Roofs

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 20, 2008, at 7:43 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

....The Soo Line began using these roofs on a small
series of milk cars they constructed in 1925, and the diagram for
those cars state the roofs are "Chicago-Cleveland Outside Metal." So
far, so good. However, the Chicago-Cleveland Co. did not go out of
business before 1927, nor was it purchased by Hutchins It still has
listings in the 1931 Car Builder's Cyc., and went on to adopt the
brand name of one of their better products, Viking, to do business
under at least until WWII.









Dennis, an interesting footnote to all this is that by 1937 Chicago-
Cleveland and Hutchins had merged to form the Chicago Hutchins
Corporation, and by 1940 Chicago Hutchins had been absorbed by the
Standard Railway Equipment Co., which then became, in effect, the
only North American manufacturer of freight car roofs. Standard's ad
in the 1940 Car Builders' Cyclopedia included the Viking roof
formerly produced by Chicago-Cleveland and then by Chicago Hutchins.


Richard Hendrickson


US Army Flatcars

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

These two photos:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=Taegu+source:life&imgurl=f88b4a2fbf926358

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=Taegu+source:life&imgurl=71077f87d517556f

show US Army flatcars in Korea in 1950 or 51. I believe South Korea used Standard Gage and these cars were most likely built in the US and shipped overseas. Any idea on the heritage?

KL


Re: TMW Double Truss spring-plankless truck

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

Anyone wishing an e-mailed flyer for this truck please contact me OFF
LIST at

b.leppert@att.net

Again, OFF LIST, please. Just click on the above address and ask for
flyer.

These trucks will be available after Christmas.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:



Tahoe Model Works' Brian Leppert is announcing soon the release of
the latest in the growing line of TMW's HO freight car trucks. The 50
ton double truss self-alinging spring-plankless cast steel freight
truck. Brian will give the details with his notice.

I am offering these for sale to readers of this list. As before, I
will also offer them for $3.00/pair, less wheelsets, the #007. Part
number 207 will be the same truck with code 88 "semi-scale"
wheelsets, priced at $5.00/pair. Postage will be added.

Anyone interested in getting some of these eagerly anticipated
trucks from me is encouraged to contact me OFF LIST (Please) at
<midcentury@...>. NOTE: I am now taking payment via PayPal in
addition to personal checks. Thanks,

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Mischke wrote:
With my Cannonball wagontop kit, the two sides were not the same curvature and shape. So built as intended, it would be lopsided. All parts fitted poorly.
They sure did fit poorly, though mine wasn't lopsided. I recall vividly having that wish for an additional hand or two to hold everything during assembly, since nothing was indexed or keyed. The final result was indeed sub-par as to some details, though from the "three-foot rule" perspective it was okay. Or the Mike Brock "passing train component" rule.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

With my Cannonball wagontop kit, the two sides were not the same
curvature and shape. So built as intended, it would be lopsided. All
parts fitted poorly.

I thought about making it into a trackside shed but it lacked
sufficient accurate detail, shape, symmetry, and dignity.

The styrene used in old Cannonball kits was such that it stress
whitened with the slightest machining, such that you could not see
where to make the next stroke. This makes all the rework required an
exercise in aggravation management.

I understand their blue box series has some etched brass details, but
if any plastic parts remain, that would just be gold plating a toad.

I cannot recommend the Cannonball wagontop at all. The only
satisfaction I felt about this kit was upon reselling it.






--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "william darnaby" <WDarnaby@...> wrote:

Buyer beware with the old Cannonball kit. They are notorious for
being too
wide. Go with resin.

Bill Darnaby


Gotta agree with Brian and Jim - $29.95 for what is essentially
the old
Cannonball Car Shops/Red Ball kit is questionable, especially
when you
can spend the same amount of money for a much nicer resin kit from
Sunshine or Funaro.


Ben Hom


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Trust Plates

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Group,

I have enjoyed this discussion from the sidelines. And now I am
throwing in one comment from that position...

In the summer of 2007, while traveling in Mississippi, I came across a
steel frame of an early STMFC era car -- frame and trucks only -- and
there riveted to the center frame member was a trust plate. I am not
sure what type of freight car this frame once supported as it had been
somewhat modified -- shortened for a specific in-house industrial
usage -- and nothing remained of the original upper works.
Unfortunately, the photos that I took that day have been lost due to a
hard drive crash.

Cheers,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

I wrote:
I can provide a number of photos of SP cars which I know were
purchased in equipment trusts but which do NOT carry trust plates or
stencils, so they were not ALWAYS required by lenders.
I have received an off-list communication which observed that
sometimes trust plates were not on car sides, but (for example) on
ends
of hoppers and covered hoppers, thus not readily visible. I don't know
myself how extensive this might have been, but it could explain some
photos without car-side plates.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history



Re: Trust Plates

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Unlike locomotives, or machine tools, for that matter, railroad freight cars didn't normally have builder's numbers or VIN's, and the number stenciled on the car could be changed on a whim by the railroad (just ask the LaSalle & Bureau County ;-)
Actually some builder badges or brake badges on freight cars DO have builder numbers.

Trust plates certainly weren't infallible, but they must have given the bankers an extra measure of security that they would indeed be able to locate their collateral if the worst should come to past.
Sounds reasonable to me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Trusty if not Rusty Plates

gary laakso
 

Their are a couple of answers. The first one is a practical one, many early mortgages of railroads included all the rolling stock and locomotives. Thus, a creditor with a lien on a class of boxcars wanted the ability to argue that his liened equipment was not part of the mortgage and this was reflected in the Railroad Bankruptcy laws that carved out equipment trusts from the bankrupt properties to be reallocated between shareholders and bondholders. If i recall correctly the olde Cotton Belt mortgages contained this clause.
The second reason is that common law created an exception for a buyer at value to obtain title over a prior undisclosed owner. Thus, a creditor, lien holder, trust owner needed to display their ownership so that this exception did not apply. The lien filings at the ICC gave notice but say the boxcars re-numbered and the lien filing at the ICC not amended, the exception would apply. Railroads needed to get the trustee's permission for re-numbering in advance, a trait the Operating Department rarely cared for! Thus, a trust plate or stencil protected the trustee from any gaps in the numbering of the equipment.

gary laakso, agreeing with
Anthony Thompson again
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/20/2008 1:50:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Tony -

Why do you think that trust plates or painted statements were
required for railroad rolling stock by lenders for more than 100
years?

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

A.T. Kott wrote:
When an automobile is first sold as a new car, a CAR TITLE
(actual
official piece of paper) is issued by the state where it is
sold . . .
Nothing of this sort has EVER been available for freight cars or
other
railroad rolling stock. Ever.
So what? The trust is between the lender and the railroad.
Why
you think a state-sanctioned (or ICC sanctioned) TITLE DOCUMENT is
required escapes me. I am confident the railroad and its lender
know
VERY well what property is under the trust, and keep perfectly
adequate
track of wreck losses, etc. in terms of fulfilling the loan.
Business
loans secured with physical assets are not sanctioned with state
TITLE
DOCUMENTS, nor can I see why they should be. I think the automobile
analogy misleads you: it isn't that the state cares about
ownership,
it's that the state issues a license to the vehicle through its
owner.
I can see no parallel to a freight car.
And I still cannot see why a plate affixed to a piece of
property secures it like a TITLE DOCUMENT. Even in the 19th
century,
I'd wager that most lenders and borrowers placed more confidence in
a
paper trail than in a physical plate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Trust Plates

Dennis Storzek
 

A couple of comments on trust plates / stencils:

The oldest instance I can think of for use of a trust stencil is the
1920 builder's photo of the Soo Line boxcar used to illustrate Camel
No. 30 Top Supported Door hardware in the CBC during the twenties.
While not readable in the halftone, we determined that the legend
read, "WM. ?. READ & Co., OWNERS. Memory fails me at the moment on the
middle initial.

There is a central place to file liens to secure loans financing
commercial machinery; the Uniform Commercial Code requires states to
have a central location to search what are known simply as "UCC
filings." That not withstanding, I have seen more than a few machine
tools that have brass tags affixed, commonly known as "inventory" or
"asset" tags. The problem was, I'm sure, if the lender was trying to
repossess his collateral from a company that had gone bankrupt, in a
room filled with a hundred Bridgeports, it would be difficult to know
which one secured HIS loan. A problem not unlike what would be faced
by a lender to a railroad, where the collateral could be in any one of
the lower 48 states. Unlike locomotives, or machine tools, for that
matter, railroad freight cars didn't normally have builder's numbers
or VIN's, and the number stenciled on the car could be changed on a
whim by the railroad (just ask the LaSalle & Bureau County ;-) Trust
plates certainly weren't infallible, but they must have given the
bankers an extra measure of security that they would indeed be able to
locate their collateral if the worst should come to past.

Dennis


Re: Trust Plates

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I wrote:
I can provide a number of photos of SP cars which I know were purchased in equipment trusts but which do NOT carry trust plates or stencils, so they were not ALWAYS required by lenders.
I have received an off-list communication which observed that sometimes trust plates were not on car sides, but (for example) on ends of hoppers and covered hoppers, thus not readily visible. I don't know myself how extensive this might have been, but it could explain some photos without car-side plates.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


TMW Double Truss spring-plankless truck

Andy Carlson
 

Tahoe Model Works' Brian Leppert is announcing soon the release of the latest in the growing line of TMW's HO freight car trucks. The 50 ton double truss self-alinging spring-plankless cast steel freight truck. Brian will give the details with his notice.

I am offering these for sale to readers of this list. As before, I will also offer them for $3.00/pair, less wheelsets, the #007. Part number 207 will be the same truck with code 88 "semi-scale" wheelsets, priced at $5.00/pair. Postage will be added.

Anyone interested in getting some of these eagerly anticipated trucks from me is encouraged to contact me OFF LIST (Please) at <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>. NOTE: I am now taking payment via PayPal in addition to personal checks. Thanks,

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

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