Date   

Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Tony -

Why do you think that trust plates or painted statements were
required for railroad rolling stock by lenders for more than 100
years?

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

A.T. Kott wrote:
When an automobile is first sold as a new car, a CAR TITLE
(actual
official piece of paper) is issued by the state where it is
sold . . .
Nothing of this sort has EVER been available for freight cars or
other
railroad rolling stock. Ever.
So what? The trust is between the lender and the railroad.
Why
you think a state-sanctioned (or ICC sanctioned) TITLE DOCUMENT is
required escapes me. I am confident the railroad and its lender
know
VERY well what property is under the trust, and keep perfectly
adequate
track of wreck losses, etc. in terms of fulfilling the loan.
Business
loans secured with physical assets are not sanctioned with state
TITLE
DOCUMENTS, nor can I see why they should be. I think the automobile
analogy misleads you: it isn't that the state cares about
ownership,
it's that the state issues a license to the vehicle through its
owner.
I can see no parallel to a freight car.
And I still cannot see why a plate affixed to a piece of
property secures it like a TITLE DOCUMENT. Even in the 19th
century,
I'd wager that most lenders and borrowers placed more confidence in
a
paper trail than in a physical plate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New ART steel reefer

Paul Lyons
 

Jerry,

When were the cars painted in the "classic scheme". I know I have this somewhere, but I am heading out the door for the day.

Thanks,
Paul Lyons
Laguna NIguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: asychis@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 7:42 am
Subject: [STMFC] New ART steel reefer







Hi Guys,
The Amarillo Railroad Museum and the Missouri Pacific Historical Society
have a joint venture to offer ART steel reefers custom made by InterMountain.
As you might know, we've had the as-delivered paint scheme avaialbe for some
time and that run is almost sold out. We have just brought in the second run
which is the "classic scheme" with Wabash flag and MP buzzsaw hearlds in
addition to the ART shield. This is a limited run of 300 kits and 300 assembled
cars. The assembled cars are available in five numbers. The kits are
unnumbered but decals will be included so you can add your own numbers and reweigh
date/location. The cars represent the 32000 series with Preco fans and the
33000 series with Equipco fans. If interested, please check out our website
(_www.amarillorailmuseum.com_ (http://www.amarillorailmuseum.com/) ) for the
new cars, or our e-Bay listing for the older run in the 22000 series. If you
have any questions, please e-mail me off list at _asychis@aol.com_
(mailto:asychis@aol.com) . I have to mention that our website is in a sort of shambles
due to an inept webmaster who has seemed to have gone AWOL. We have five
numbers, not eight. The price is $18.95 for kits and $29.95 for assembled cars.
The decals for the kits have been delayed until after 1/1/09, but we'll send
them to you under separate cover at no additional cost for those buying
kits. If you want decals for the assembled cars (i.e. you want to change the
numbers on these cars), the cost for a set of decals is $2.00.

Thanks,

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=a
olcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)


B&O wagontop box

Jim King
 

Is there sufficient interest to produce a 1-pc body B&O M53 or the like in
HO resin using my CAD/SLA technology? If so, I'll give it serious thought
as I'm designing the S scale version in 2009.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


Re: B&O wagon top in O-scale available...

mforsyth127
 

Group,
 
Those that might be looking for a B&O M-53 kit in "O" scale, can acquire one from Ted Schnepf @ Rails Unlimited. Ted has been making high-quality urethane freight cars for many years, with one of his first being the Milwaukee Road rib-sided box.
 
http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Models/milwboxcars.html
 
You can see the current line up of 40' cars, including the M-53 here...
 
http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Models/40boxcars.html
 
Matt Forsyth
 
Modeling the DL&W, Erie, PRR,
NYC and LV in "O" scale.
Elmira, NY, summer, 1951




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Radial Roofs

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <briankd.usf.net@...> wrote:

Dennis and all, I remember finding these documents on radial roofs
as I was archiving NP material at the Jackson St. Roundhouse archives
and showing them to my brother. The way I read them, Mr. Robertson or
his staff, came up with the design. The rights were then sold to a
supplier, as each supplier was bought up or went out of business,
another company would acquire the patent rights to this design. I
believe one of the letters referred to this. Chronologically,
following the correspondences it all made sense. The
letters from the Twin Cities Joint Car Inspections Association are
interesting also. I have been trying to find spare time to recopy
them and post them to the group as they cover many railroads house
cars. Brian Dick


Brian,

You are correct, reading through the NP correspondence, a nice linear
picture emerges… one of the letters dated 9/23 states that the roof
will be available from the Chicago-Cleveland Co., while Mr. Robertson
states in a letter of 8/27 that the roof was now "controlled" (his
choice of words, not mine) by the Hutchins Co.

It's only when one brings in information from other sources that the
picture gets murky. The Soo Line began using these roofs on a small
series of milk cars they constructed in 1925, and the diagram for
those cars state the roofs are "Chicago-Cleveland Outside Metal." So
far, so good. However, the Chicago-Cleveland Co. did not go out of
business before 1927, nor was it purchased by Hutchins… It still has
listings in the 1931 Car Builder's Cyc., and went on to adopt the
brand name of one of their better products, Viking, to do business
under at least until WWII.

In addition, the diagram sheet for the Soo Line cars built two years
after Mr. Robertson's comments regarding Hutchins controlling the roof
design still list the roofs as Chicago-Cleveland. The only possibility
would seem to be that the design was licensed to both companies
concurrently, and that Mr. Robertson was pushing the Hutchins
connection, possibly because he was displeased with
Chicago-Cleveland's lack of success in placing the roof in the market
place, but that's a far stretch based on the available information.

Either way, the correspondence is interesting, and the exchange of
letters with the Soo Line does confirm that the roofs used by the two
roads were indeed the same., but there is obviously still much more to
the story than we are seeing.

Dennis Storzek


New ART steel reefer

asychis@...
 

Hi Guys,
The Amarillo Railroad Museum and the Missouri Pacific Historical Society
have a joint venture to offer ART steel reefers custom made by InterMountain.
As you might know, we've had the as-delivered paint scheme avaialbe for some
time and that run is almost sold out. We have just brought in the second run
which is the "classic scheme" with Wabash flag and MP buzzsaw hearlds in
addition to the ART shield. This is a limited run of 300 kits and 300 assembled
cars. The assembled cars are available in five numbers. The kits are
unnumbered but decals will be included so you can add your own numbers and reweigh
date/location. The cars represent the 32000 series with Preco fans and the
33000 series with Equipco fans. If interested, please check out our website
(_www.amarillorailmuseum.com_ (http://www.amarillorailmuseum.com/) ) for the
new cars, or our e-Bay listing for the older run in the 22000 series. If you
have any questions, please e-mail me off list at _asychis@aol.com_
(mailto:asychis@aol.com) . I have to mention that our website is in a sort of shambles
due to an inept webmaster who has seemed to have gone AWOL. We have five
numbers, not eight. The price is $18.95 for kits and $29.95 for assembled cars.
The decals for the kits have been delayed until after 1/1/09, but we'll send
them to you under separate cover at no additional cost for those buying
kits. If you want decals for the assembled cars (i.e. you want to change the
numbers on these cars), the cost for a set of decals is $2.00.

Thanks,

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum

**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=a
olcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)


Radial Roofs

briankd.usf.net@...
 

Dennis and all, I remember finding these documents on radial roofs as I was archiving NP material at the Jackson St. Roundhouse archives and showing them to my brother. The way I read them, Mr. Robertson or his staff, came up with the design. The rights were then sold to a supplier, as each supplier was bought up or went out of business, another company would acquire the patent rights to this design. I believe one of the letters referred to this. Chronologically, following the correspondences it all made sense. The letters from the Twin Cities Joint Car Inspections Association are interesting also. I have been trying to find spare time to recopy them and post them to the group as they cover many railroads house cars. Brian Dick


--- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---


Re: Trust Plates

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

A.T. Kott wrote:
When an automobile is first sold as a new car, a CAR TITLE (actual official piece of paper) is issued by the state where it is sold . . . Nothing of this sort has EVER been available for freight cars or other railroad rolling stock. Ever.
So what? The trust is between the lender and the railroad. Why you think a state-sanctioned (or ICC sanctioned) TITLE DOCUMENT is required escapes me. I am confident the railroad and its lender know VERY well what property is under the trust, and keep perfectly adequate track of wreck losses, etc. in terms of fulfilling the loan. Business loans secured with physical assets are not sanctioned with state TITLE DOCUMENTS, nor can I see why they should be. I think the automobile analogy misleads you: it isn't that the state cares about ownership, it's that the state issues a license to the vehicle through its owner. I can see no parallel to a freight car.
And I still cannot see why a plate affixed to a piece of property secures it like a TITLE DOCUMENT. Even in the 19th century, I'd wager that most lenders and borrowers placed more confidence in a paper trail than in a physical plate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Radial Roofs

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

Interesting stuff, Dennis. Thanks for posting it, and to Jim Dick
for making it available. I knew that roof had been invented in the
NP mechanical department but wasn't aware that the Soo had also used
it, or that the patent had been sold to Hutchins.

Richard Hendrickson

Guy Wilber was nice enough to send me a copy of the Gilman – Robertson
patent; it is No. 1,155,563, issued Oct. 5, 1915. Those interested in
seeing it can go to the USPTO web site at:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and search on the
patent number.

When I first went through the correspondence that Jim Dick sent, I was
hoping to be able to write the definitive history of this roof design,
but the fact that two vendors are cited, and the fact that the Soo
Line diagram for cars built three years after Mr. Robertson claims
that the design is "controlled" by Hutchins still list the roofs as
Chicago-Cleveland has left somewhat of a muddle. In reality, it
supports my growing suspicion that while each of the roof suppliers
had there own designs that they advertised, each of the three also
likely made components that fit their competitors roofs, which is why
Bill Welch can find paperwork that shows the FGE cars were re-roofed
with Hutchins products, even though some of the roofs physically match
drwings of Chicago-Cleveland "Zenith" roofs, and the Soo could
continue to purchase circular roof components from Chicago-Cleveland
after Hutchins was also selling them.

In the interest of providing a complete roster of cars using the NP
style Circular roof, other than the NP itself, I offer this list:

SOO 2600 - 2609 MILK SOO AT SHOREHAM 1925
SOO 134400 – 135398(e) BOX Pullman 1926
SOO 40200 – 40598(e) BOX Pullman 1928
SOO 40600 – 40998(e) BOX Siems-Stembel Co. 1928
SOO 41000 – 41398(e) BOX Pullman 1929
SOO 41400 – 41798(e) BOX Siems-Stembel Co. 1929
SOO 135400 – 135798(e) BOX Siems-Stembel Co. 1930

The Boxcars can all be modeled with variations of Sunshine kit #78,
except the cqrs built in 1930, which had bottom supported doors that
Sunshine missed. The Soo milk cars were recently the subject of a
construction article by Dave Lieder in RMC within the last year or two.

One might wonder why both the NP and the Soo stuck with what would
appear to be an antiquated roof design after several vendors began
offering "all steel" or "solid steel" roofs that would seem to be a
better solution to the "weaving" problem. Mr. Dick sent me an equally
thick batch of correspondence concerning damage claims from millers
where warm flour had been loaded in steel roof boxcars during the
winter, and the moisture in the warm flour condensed on the inside of
the unlined roof sheets and rained back down, soiling the top of the
load. It would seem that both roads having heavy involvement with
traffic out of the Minneapolis milling district, saw value in
continuing to use roofs having wood sheathing on the exposed underside.

I'm not sure what changed to make both roads adopt the AAR design
boxcars with their unlined steel roofs in the thirties.

Dennis


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

Dean Payne
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Garth Groff wrote:
"How about http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/ . Click on 'signature series'
at left. May not be Intermountain quality, but maybe it will do for a
stand-in until something else comes along."

Gotta agree with Brian and Jim - $29.95 for what is essentially the old
Cannonball Car Shops/Red Ball kit is questionable, especially when you
can spend the same amount of money for a much nicer resin kit from
Sunshine or Funaro.


Ben Hom
I think the original post may have been referring to this from 2005,
which gave me hope that a plastic wagon top would be available in the
foreseeable future:

On Sep 21, 2005, at 10:18 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:
Let me predict that -someone- is working on a B&O Wagontop in
plastic. How could they not be? :-) The question remains, will > >
anyone ever wake up and give us the AAR alternate standard offet hopper?
Why want a plastic wagon top (besides the already mentioned Cannonball
kit with it's problems)? I hear the Sunshine is a bit of a challenge
to get the sides on without gaps, the Funaro & Camerlengo kit is
allegedly top-heavy due to the thick sides... It is available in the
M-15K rebuild and M53 versions, which adds some nice variation.
The thing is, they do other more obscure and less distinctive freight
cars in plastic, why not the wagon tops? (I know, "Why did mfgr X
chose to produce such-and-such instead of fill-in-the-blank" has been
asked many times before.)

Dean Payne


Re: Anybody have any info about Richfield's Tank Car fleet?

al_brown03
 

Richfield Oil (ROX) listed 219 tank cars in the 1/43 ORER, and 210 in
1/53. Mostly ARA class III, a few II and IV. I haven't run across any
published photos, which isn't to say they don't exist somewhere. So
keep looking.

It's been noted on this group that ORER listings of tank cars are
less than specific about points modellers are interested in: lessees,
dimensions, presence of heater coils. I messed this up a few weeks
back, by inferring someone's cars were generic 8 kgal tanks. An
eminent freight-car expert gently pointed out that the company in
question got cars from wherever they could ... so one should work
from pictures. Chastened, I've learned: until my next mistake.

I initially joined this group hoping to find out about the two tank
cars of Southern Fruit Distributors, in Orlando (SFDX): ancient ARA
Type II cars acquired at the age of about 30, between 1943 and '53.
I've never heard a word nor seen a picture, beyond what's in the 1/53
ORER (which I've just essentially quoted). Learned a whole lot
*else*, but not that. Got a few potential sources in mind I haven't
tried yet, though.

Happy hunting, Miles. Research is fun. But be warned, it rots the
brain: can cut into your modelling time. :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Tony asked
Want to tell us where you started? Have you looked at
Equipment
Registers, photos in books, Wikipedia, etc.? Or starting from
zero?
On Dec 19, 2008, at 3:56 AM, espeeac12 wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's start at Zero. I don't want you
to
make
any assumptions as to what I did and didn't research so perhaps I
can
get a fuller perspective on the topic of the Richfield Tank car
fleet.

Miles,

You might want to rephrase that <G>. It would personally annoy me
to
go look something up only to find out that you already had that
information so I'm unlikely to do anything until I know where you
are
at. It may well be that you've found nothing, but hey, tell us
where
you looked already anyway, it helps narrow the search! And if you
do
have some resources, let us know what they are!

How can I access ORER's? (Is there an online database, or would my
local library have them on hand?)
Not on-line, maybe in the library, or you can buy them on CD from
Westerield, as has been mentioned many times on this list (Al has
the
Jan 1955 ORER which is pretty close to your 1954 era). However,
it
is likely that the ORER won't help you much other than to know the
number of cars in the fleet and some general information about
capacity. Probably your best bet is to look for photos and then
identify car types from those.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___
________________________________
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__ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; |
||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: PRR H30 Brake Wheel

Bruce Smith
 

On Fri, December 19, 2008 3:09 pm, Tony Higgins wrote:
Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there know
what this is?
Tony,

I looked at the photos in TKM #8 and they have both the H30 and H30A. The
H30s appear to have two types of brake wheels, one as you describe with 5
straight spokes and an inner concentric wheel. Unfortunately, when
compared to the Universal wheel on P46 or RPCYC (M2049 wheel), that wheel
is stamped with a rim on each part while the photo shows round spokes.
The other H30 photo shows a Universal M1704 hand wheel, which has a solid
center with punchouts and 8 angled ribs. The H30A has a Champion
brakewheel.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Trust Documents

gary laakso
 

I believe they did exist since the filing system was created at the ICC and i drafted the first cut of the ICC lien documents that counsel for the lender arranged for filing and I received copies of lien searches from Southern Pacific's counsel in Washington DC. The financing documents at the ICC {now Surface Transportation Board] are indexed by railroad with equipment type and car marks and numbers. I beg to disagree with you, the ICC had recordation documents well before 1982 in its Washington DC office and likely as part of the Transportation Act of 1920.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 8:01:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Documents


Gary -

Did you ever see a TITLE document for a freight car? These did not
exist in STMFC times, and not even in 1982. Sure, there are plenty
of lengthy written agreements regarding who owns a car, with copies
kept by the lender and the owner, but no TITLE DOCUMENT. I know this
sounds like just semantics, but consider titles to real property.
The existence of a lien on real estate is determined by what is
described in the title document (aka deed) at the courthouse. In
1982, the ICC said they did not have any of the actual documents
evidencing title to freight equipment, nor were they acting as
clearinghouse for anything but equipment leases.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-
financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10
years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens
for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC
counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of
rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The
recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in
the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in
the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a
loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple
lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms
of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the
trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart
with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since
legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time.
Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was
substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any
lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.


----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least
in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone).
There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school
in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never
had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a
mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it
may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate
such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run
to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the
cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@





Re: PRR H30 Brake Wheel

pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Tony--I have a photo showing H30 254252 and 254351 both with
Universal brake wheels, Kadee p/n 2023 or 2033 (eight curved spokes,
nearly solid center).

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Higgins" <earthman92853@...> wrote:

Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there
know
what this is?

Thanks,
Tony Higgins


Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-19-
08/Wheeling.jpg
-----------------------------
In any case, the photo should be used for an ad--

"Hurry Hurry Hurry to your local hobby dealer to see our latest
_________"

Scott Pitzer


Re: Trust Documents

proto48er
 

Gary -

Did you ever see a TITLE document for a freight car? These did not
exist in STMFC times, and not even in 1982. Sure, there are plenty
of lengthy written agreements regarding who owns a car, with copies
kept by the lender and the owner, but no TITLE DOCUMENT. I know this
sounds like just semantics, but consider titles to real property.
The existence of a lien on real estate is determined by what is
described in the title document (aka deed) at the courthouse. In
1982, the ICC said they did not have any of the actual documents
evidencing title to freight equipment, nor were they acting as
clearinghouse for anything but equipment leases.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-
financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10
years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens
for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC
counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of
rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The
recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in
the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in
the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a
loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple
lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms
of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the
trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart
with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since
legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time.
Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was
substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any
lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.


----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least
in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone).
There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school
in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never
had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a
mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it
may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate
such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run
to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the
cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Tony -

I guess I am not making myself clear on this matter.

When an automobile is first sold as a new car, a CAR TITLE (actual
official piece of paper) is issued by the state where it is sold.
The car title is FILED OF RECORD with the state's motor vehicle
registration agency. When you buy a car and make a note, the lien in
favor of the lienholder is RECORDED on the CAR TITLE and filed of
record at your state's motor vehicle registration agency. The
presence of a lien on the title makes the lender secure that he will
be repaid before the car is sold. When you sell the car, you need to
produce the TITLE or a certified duplicate thereof, to have the TITLE
transferred (by the state) to the new owner. The title will indicate
whether there is a lien on the car, and is NOTICE to any prospective
purchaser that the title is not CLEAR until the lien is released by
the holder. A similar system of title is required for aircraft and
boats.

Nothing of this sort has EVER been available for freight cars or
other railroad rolling stock. Ever. Never has a freight car builder
created "title documents" for railroad equipment. Never have
equipment titles been recorded in a central location - because titles
do not exist for freight cars.

The "trust plates" and painted statements on the car serve as the
notice to purchasers that the collateral (freight car) is encumbered
by a lien in favor of whomever. Sure the individual railroads have
mortgage agreements and paperwork out the kazoo, but there is no
central location to determine whether there is a lien on a freight
car. You have to realize that this system originated in a different
time (before phones, computers, etc.), when it was difficult to
determine where to check on the existence of a lien on, say, a car
owned by a private company. The placing of plates on the actual
collateral evolved for this type of collateral. Banks felt secure
enough for 100+ years to lend money based on this type of notice to
the world that their collateral (the freight car) had a lien on it.

This may all seem like semantics, but, in reality, it is a very
different method of securitization of collateral from what we are
used to here in the U.S.A.

Thanks for pointing out that painted trust statements were used as
far back as the 1930's. I guess that the lender felt secure enough
not to require a metal plate!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

A.T. Kott wrote:
Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to
cars.

Let's see, my auto title is a piece of paper which is not
bolted
to my car. I strongly suspect there was plenty of paper backing up
the
equipment trusts too. Therefore, I would suggest (tongue planted
firmly, etc.) a rephrase: trust plates are to rolling stock as
paint is
to automobiles.

If a freight car does not have a plate or painted statement of
lienholder identity, it is presumed owned "free and clear" by the
railroad whose reporting marks are on the car.
I strenuously doubt this is true. Documentation was
extensive at
the railroad and I feel certain at least equally extensive at the
lienholder.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast
or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each
side of
the car . . . When paid, the bank retrieved the trust
plates . . . the
reason for the metal plates was that the lienholder could
(usually!)
be identified after a wreck and accounts settled for that piece
of
equipment.
Several SP documents of which I have copies clearly state
that
trust plates are bank requirements, and that when the trust is
eventually fulfilled, plates are to be removed and scrapped. There
is
no indication of returning plates to the lienholder. This of course
possibly specific to SP, but certainly constitutes at least one
exception.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in
the
early 1960's - not sure, though.
A few SP classes built in 1937-1940 had stenciled trust
legends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Trust Documents

gary laakso
 

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10 years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time. Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone). There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone). There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ted Culotta wrote:

The car on the right is Erie 70092, rebuilt from a single
sheathed car, likely an ex-auto car. I have it on good authority
that we'll have kits for these in resin in HO in the very near
future. The Erie sold some to West India Fruit, C&IM, AC&Y and a few
other bit players.

Hmm. I'll have to take a look. Might want to get one, maybe.

;^)

SGL

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