Date   

Re: PRR H30 Brake Wheel

Bruce Smith
 

On Fri, December 19, 2008 3:09 pm, Tony Higgins wrote:
Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there know
what this is?
Tony,

I looked at the photos in TKM #8 and they have both the H30 and H30A. The
H30s appear to have two types of brake wheels, one as you describe with 5
straight spokes and an inner concentric wheel. Unfortunately, when
compared to the Universal wheel on P46 or RPCYC (M2049 wheel), that wheel
is stamped with a rim on each part while the photo shows round spokes.
The other H30 photo shows a Universal M1704 hand wheel, which has a solid
center with punchouts and 8 angled ribs. The H30A has a Champion
brakewheel.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Trust Documents

gary laakso
 

I believe they did exist since the filing system was created at the ICC and i drafted the first cut of the ICC lien documents that counsel for the lender arranged for filing and I received copies of lien searches from Southern Pacific's counsel in Washington DC. The financing documents at the ICC {now Surface Transportation Board] are indexed by railroad with equipment type and car marks and numbers. I beg to disagree with you, the ICC had recordation documents well before 1982 in its Washington DC office and likely as part of the Transportation Act of 1920.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 8:01:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Documents


Gary -

Did you ever see a TITLE document for a freight car? These did not
exist in STMFC times, and not even in 1982. Sure, there are plenty
of lengthy written agreements regarding who owns a car, with copies
kept by the lender and the owner, but no TITLE DOCUMENT. I know this
sounds like just semantics, but consider titles to real property.
The existence of a lien on real estate is determined by what is
described in the title document (aka deed) at the courthouse. In
1982, the ICC said they did not have any of the actual documents
evidencing title to freight equipment, nor were they acting as
clearinghouse for anything but equipment leases.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-
financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10
years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens
for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC
counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of
rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The
recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in
the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in
the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a
loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple
lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms
of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the
trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart
with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since
legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time.
Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was
substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any
lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.


----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least
in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone).
There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school
in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never
had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a
mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it
may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate
such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run
to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the
cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@





Re: PRR H30 Brake Wheel

pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Tony--I have a photo showing H30 254252 and 254351 both with
Universal brake wheels, Kadee p/n 2023 or 2033 (eight curved spokes,
nearly solid center).

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Higgins" <earthman92853@...> wrote:

Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there
know
what this is?

Thanks,
Tony Higgins


Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-19-
08/Wheeling.jpg
-----------------------------
In any case, the photo should be used for an ad--

"Hurry Hurry Hurry to your local hobby dealer to see our latest
_________"

Scott Pitzer


Re: Trust Documents

proto48er
 

Gary -

Did you ever see a TITLE document for a freight car? These did not
exist in STMFC times, and not even in 1982. Sure, there are plenty
of lengthy written agreements regarding who owns a car, with copies
kept by the lender and the owner, but no TITLE DOCUMENT. I know this
sounds like just semantics, but consider titles to real property.
The existence of a lien on real estate is determined by what is
described in the title document (aka deed) at the courthouse. In
1982, the ICC said they did not have any of the actual documents
evidencing title to freight equipment, nor were they acting as
clearinghouse for anything but equipment leases.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-
financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10
years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens
for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC
counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of
rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The
recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in
the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in
the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a
loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple
lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms
of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the
trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart
with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since
legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time.
Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was
substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any
lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.


----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least
in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone).
There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school
in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never
had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a
mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it
may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate
such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run
to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the
cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Tony -

I guess I am not making myself clear on this matter.

When an automobile is first sold as a new car, a CAR TITLE (actual
official piece of paper) is issued by the state where it is sold.
The car title is FILED OF RECORD with the state's motor vehicle
registration agency. When you buy a car and make a note, the lien in
favor of the lienholder is RECORDED on the CAR TITLE and filed of
record at your state's motor vehicle registration agency. The
presence of a lien on the title makes the lender secure that he will
be repaid before the car is sold. When you sell the car, you need to
produce the TITLE or a certified duplicate thereof, to have the TITLE
transferred (by the state) to the new owner. The title will indicate
whether there is a lien on the car, and is NOTICE to any prospective
purchaser that the title is not CLEAR until the lien is released by
the holder. A similar system of title is required for aircraft and
boats.

Nothing of this sort has EVER been available for freight cars or
other railroad rolling stock. Ever. Never has a freight car builder
created "title documents" for railroad equipment. Never have
equipment titles been recorded in a central location - because titles
do not exist for freight cars.

The "trust plates" and painted statements on the car serve as the
notice to purchasers that the collateral (freight car) is encumbered
by a lien in favor of whomever. Sure the individual railroads have
mortgage agreements and paperwork out the kazoo, but there is no
central location to determine whether there is a lien on a freight
car. You have to realize that this system originated in a different
time (before phones, computers, etc.), when it was difficult to
determine where to check on the existence of a lien on, say, a car
owned by a private company. The placing of plates on the actual
collateral evolved for this type of collateral. Banks felt secure
enough for 100+ years to lend money based on this type of notice to
the world that their collateral (the freight car) had a lien on it.

This may all seem like semantics, but, in reality, it is a very
different method of securitization of collateral from what we are
used to here in the U.S.A.

Thanks for pointing out that painted trust statements were used as
far back as the 1930's. I guess that the lender felt secure enough
not to require a metal plate!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

A.T. Kott wrote:
Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to
cars.

Let's see, my auto title is a piece of paper which is not
bolted
to my car. I strongly suspect there was plenty of paper backing up
the
equipment trusts too. Therefore, I would suggest (tongue planted
firmly, etc.) a rephrase: trust plates are to rolling stock as
paint is
to automobiles.

If a freight car does not have a plate or painted statement of
lienholder identity, it is presumed owned "free and clear" by the
railroad whose reporting marks are on the car.
I strenuously doubt this is true. Documentation was
extensive at
the railroad and I feel certain at least equally extensive at the
lienholder.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast
or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each
side of
the car . . . When paid, the bank retrieved the trust
plates . . . the
reason for the metal plates was that the lienholder could
(usually!)
be identified after a wreck and accounts settled for that piece
of
equipment.
Several SP documents of which I have copies clearly state
that
trust plates are bank requirements, and that when the trust is
eventually fulfilled, plates are to be removed and scrapped. There
is
no indication of returning plates to the lienholder. This of course
possibly specific to SP, but certainly constitutes at least one
exception.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in
the
early 1960's - not sure, though.
A few SP classes built in 1937-1940 had stenciled trust
legends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Trust Documents

gary laakso
 

Well, my experience handling equipment leases, sales and re-financings in the Southern Pacific Law Department for 20 years and 10 years for RailAmerica was that the ICC had files on title and liens for locomotives and rolling stock and that I had to have our ICC counsel search title for all equipment that was sold as part of rebuilding projects for both locomotives and rolling stock. The recordation system was designed to preserve the rights of lenders in the equipment in all the too frequent railroad bankruptcies, esp in the 1930s and later and avoid any lender paying for equipment under a loan or lease with another lender.
I worked on Trust Agreements and in those documents, the multiple lenders agreed upon a bank as the "trustee" to administer the terms of the financing for the equipment. SP, of course, paid all of the trustee's fees!
If a unit was destroyed, the financing agreement contained a chart with the valuations and they always started at 104% or more since legal and tax costs were included that were amortized over time. Most of the time , it was much easier for all concerned if a unit was substituted for the destroyed unit that was free and clear of any lien.
My experience certainly was different then what you describe.

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 7:12:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone). There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Gary -

There were NO title documents for railroad rolling stock (at least in
STMFC times - not sure about today, now that the ICC is gone). There
was NO recording of title documents of this type at the ICC when it
still was in existence. I did a paper on this subject in law school in
1982 - ICC had no title documents then, and said that they never had
done that, as far as anyone at the agency remembered.

The "trust" was not actually a trust document, but rather a mortgage
between lender and purchaser with the collateral secured by the
equipment, as evidenced by the trust plate. In earlier times, it may
have actually been a trust agreement - they were unable to locate such
an agreement at the ICC in 1982.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate
Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to
see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in
the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ted Culotta wrote:

The car on the right is Erie 70092, rebuilt from a single
sheathed car, likely an ex-auto car. I have it on good authority
that we'll have kits for these in resin in HO in the very near
future. The Erie sold some to West India Fruit, C&IM, AC&Y and a few
other bit players.

Hmm. I'll have to take a look. Might want to get one, maybe.

;^)

SGL


Re: Trust Plates

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

A.T. Kott wrote:
Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars.
Let's see, my auto title is a piece of paper which is not bolted to my car. I strongly suspect there was plenty of paper backing up the equipment trusts too. Therefore, I would suggest (tongue planted firmly, etc.) a rephrase: trust plates are to rolling stock as paint is to automobiles.

If a freight car does not have a plate or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on the car.
I strenuously doubt this is true. Documentation was extensive at the railroad and I feel certain at least equally extensive at the lienholder.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of the car . . . When paid, the bank retrieved the trust plates . . . the reason for the metal plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.
Several SP documents of which I have copies clearly state that trust plates are bank requirements, and that when the trust is eventually fulfilled, plates are to be removed and scrapped. There is no indication of returning plates to the lienholder. This of course possibly specific to SP, but certainly constitutes at least one exception.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the early 1960's - not sure, though.
A few SP classes built in 1937-1940 had stenciled trust legends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

The one on the left is a CN 1937 AAR box car, one of only about
18,000. The car on the right is Erie 70092, rebuilt from a single
sheathed car, likely an ex-auto car. I have it on good authority
that we'll have kits for these in resin in HO in the very near
future. The Erie sold some to West India Fruit, C&IM, AC&Y and a few
other bit players.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@speedwitch.com


Re: Trust Plates

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:20 PM, proto48er wrote:

[SNIP]

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott









Not true, A. T. I have numerous examples in my photo files dating
from the 1930s through 1950s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Trust Plates

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 4:20 PM, proto48er wrote:

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.
A.T.,
Builder's photo document the use of painted trust stencils on some cars
going back to at least 1937. As an example, see M-K-T 62100 on page 49
of RP CYC Vol. 3. I haven't done an exhaustive search to find an
earlier use.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Trust Plates

Frank Greene
 

proto48er wrote:
Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars. They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on the car.

You mean the bank and RR lawyers didn't have reams of paper identifying what equipment was owned by whom? I believe the trust plates stated that the trust, or conditional agreement, or whatever legalese was filed with the ICC. That's about as central as it gets. What happens if the trust plate falls off? It's absence can't be absolute evidence of clear title. It seems more a formality than practical.

Is a trust plate relevant to anyone switching, distributing, loading or unloading a car? I don't see how, but what do I know?


In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

It seems to me that if a car were wrecked beyond repair, you'd have to have an Authorization For Expense (AFE) to scrap it, which would signal someone in accounting or the company lawyers' offices to check out ownership/lease/trust, which would cause some communication with the bank if there were a trust.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Trust Plates

gary laakso
 

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 5:20:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars.
They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling
stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to
railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real
property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate
or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed
owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on
the car.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of
the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a
local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side
of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank
retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal
plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a
wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly.
On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece
of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its
legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who
the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If
the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars.
They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling
stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to
railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real
property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate
or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed
owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on
the car.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of
the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a
local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side
of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank
retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal
plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a
wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly.
On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece
of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its
legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who
the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If
the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


PRR H30 Brake Wheel

Tony Higgins
 

Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there know
what this is?

Thanks,
Tony Higgins


Re: Trust Plates

naptownprr
 

I believe they were applied to both sides for the same reason that the reporting marks are on both sides. Normally, you only see one side of a car at a time, and, if it is in a train, it would be a pain to have to walk around the whole consist to find out who financed the car.

Jim

Quoting Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>:

Denny Anspach wrote:
Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership . . .
I don't know the answer, Denny, but if they were singly applied, it
is striking that EVERY builder and amateur photo of new cars on roads
for which I have good coverage (of course, for classes with trust
plates) shows a plate. But that could have varied from road to road, or
from trust issuer to issuer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Trust Plates

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?







Denny, many railroads - most of them, in fact - stenciled trust
information on their cars rather than using cast metal trust plates.
In either case, a quick scan of my photo collection confirms that the
trust statements were on both sides of the cars.

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.







That's correct, and in photos of older cars whose mortgage was paid
off, it's sometimes possible to see where the cast trust plates were
removed and the rivet holes filled with new rivets.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Trust Plates

Jeff Coleman
 

They were applied on both sides.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Denny Anspach wrote:
Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership . . .
I don't know the answer, Denny, but if they were singly
applied, it
is striking that EVERY builder and amateur photo of new cars on roads
for which I have good coverage (of course, for classes with trust
plates) shows a plate. But that could have varied from road to road, or
from trust issuer to issuer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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