Date   

Re: Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

The one on the left is a CN 1937 AAR box car, one of only about
18,000. The car on the right is Erie 70092, rebuilt from a single
sheathed car, likely an ex-auto car. I have it on good authority
that we'll have kits for these in resin in HO in the very near
future. The Erie sold some to West India Fruit, C&IM, AC&Y and a few
other bit players.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road
Guilford, CT 06437
(203) 453-6174
info@speedwitch.com


Re: Trust Plates

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:20 PM, proto48er wrote:

[SNIP]

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott









Not true, A. T. I have numerous examples in my photo files dating
from the 1930s through 1950s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Trust Plates

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 4:20 PM, proto48er wrote:

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.
A.T.,
Builder's photo document the use of painted trust stencils on some cars
going back to at least 1937. As an example, see M-K-T 62100 on page 49
of RP CYC Vol. 3. I haven't done an exhaustive search to find an
earlier use.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Trust Plates

Frank Greene
 

proto48er wrote:
Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars. They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on the car.

You mean the bank and RR lawyers didn't have reams of paper identifying what equipment was owned by whom? I believe the trust plates stated that the trust, or conditional agreement, or whatever legalese was filed with the ICC. That's about as central as it gets. What happens if the trust plate falls off? It's absence can't be absolute evidence of clear title. It seems more a formality than practical.

Is a trust plate relevant to anyone switching, distributing, loading or unloading a car? I don't see how, but what do I know?


In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

It seems to me that if a car were wrecked beyond repair, you'd have to have an Authorization For Expense (AFE) to scrap it, which would signal someone in accounting or the company lawyers' offices to check out ownership/lease/trust, which would cause some communication with the bank if there were a trust.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Trust Plates

gary laakso
 

The caveat is that title documents are recorded at the Interstate Commerce Commission so that any lender will have a title check run to see if there are any liens on the equipment. This usually arises in the sale of the cars by the lender or a refinancing to rebuild the cars.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: proto48er
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/19/2008 5:20:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Trust Plates


Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars.
They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling
stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to
railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real
property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate
or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed
owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on
the car.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of
the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a
local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side
of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank
retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal
plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a
wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly.
On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece
of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its
legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who
the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If
the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Trust Plates

proto48er
 

Denny -

Trust plates are to rolling stock as automobile titles are to cars.
They are evidence of the identity of lienholders for railroad rolling
stock. Incredibly, there is no central clearing house for titles to
railroad equipment (and never has been) like there is for real
property, autos and aircraft. If a freight car does not have a plate
or painted statement of lienholder identity, it is presumed
owned "free and clear" by the railroad whose reporting marks are on
the car.

In STMFC times, the lienholder was usually identified by a cast or
stamped metal plate affixed to the side or centersill of each side of
the car. (Not sure about locomotives having plates on both sides - a
local bank here affixed a single trust plate to the engineer's side
of the cab of some M-K-T 4-4-0's they financed. When paid, the bank
retrieved the trust plates from the locos!) The reason for the metal
plates was that the lienholder could (usually!) be identified after a
wreck and accounts settled for that piece of equipment.

I think that painted trust statements were only used starting in the
early 1960's - not sure, though.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly.
On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece
of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its
legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who
the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If
the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


PRR H30 Brake Wheel

Tony Higgins
 

Greetings,
I'm finishing an F&C H30 and would like to know what brake wheel was
used on the prototype. The one with the kit is cast resin and looks
kinda chunky to put on an otherwise nice looking model. The best
picture I can find shows what looks like a 5 or 6-spoke wheel with a
concentric ring between the hub and rim. It looks like a version of
Universal wheel pictured in RPCYC 10, p46. -Any PRR guys out there know
what this is?

Thanks,
Tony Higgins


Re: Trust Plates

naptownprr
 

I believe they were applied to both sides for the same reason that the reporting marks are on both sides. Normally, you only see one side of a car at a time, and, if it is in a train, it would be a pain to have to walk around the whole consist to find out who financed the car.

Jim

Quoting Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>:

Denny Anspach wrote:
Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership . . .
I don't know the answer, Denny, but if they were singly applied, it
is striking that EVERY builder and amateur photo of new cars on roads
for which I have good coverage (of course, for classes with trust
plates) shows a plate. But that could have varied from road to road, or
from trust issuer to issuer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Trust Plates

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 19, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership , but..what do I know about it?







Denny, many railroads - most of them, in fact - stenciled trust
information on their cars rather than using cast metal trust plates.
In either case, a quick scan of my photo collection confirms that the
trust statements were on both sides of the cars.

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in
routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who the
actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If the
the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then
removed, or changed.







That's correct, and in photos of older cars whose mortgage was paid
off, it's sometimes possible to see where the cast trust plates were
removed and the rivet holes filled with new rivets.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Trust Plates

Jeff Coleman
 

They were applied on both sides.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Denny Anspach wrote:
Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on
locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is
whether
these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On
intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of
equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal
ownership . . .
I don't know the answer, Denny, but if they were singly
applied, it
is striking that EVERY builder and amateur photo of new cars on roads
for which I have good coverage (of course, for classes with trust
plates) shows a plate. But that could have varied from road to road, or
from trust issuer to issuer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Trust Plates

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Denny Anspach wrote:
Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal ownership . . .
I don't know the answer, Denny, but if they were singly applied, it is striking that EVERY builder and amateur photo of new cars on roads for which I have good coverage (of course, for classes with trust plates) shows a plate. But that could have varied from road to road, or from trust issuer to issuer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Trust Plates

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Understanding the reason for the application of Trust plates on locomotives, passenger and freight cars, what I do not know is whether these plates were applied in pairs (one on each side), or singly. On intuition and reason alone, I would not understand why any piece of equipment might need more than one piece of evidence as to its legal ownership , but..what do I know about it?

To my knowledge the information on the plates was not useful in routine operations, but only to indicate in any legal dispute who the actual owner of the piece of equipment might be at the time. If the the owner (i.e. bank or lessor) changed, the plate would be then removed, or changed.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: SP DF B-50-22

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Tony: Thanks for the info. I know the car number I mentioned was the one on
the p2k car because I was surprised it was in V4. I really do not know if it
was first run or a later one. I think it was a later run since the dealer
that had it ususally sells only new run stuff. I saw it at a train show in
September, and was going to pick it up but my friend said he had one he
could sell me. Turns out he had a DD car which was totally different. I
thought the "DF" was orange since I had your book and remembered it was
supposed to be orange. However, I can not find the car on Walthers website.

A pet peeve I wish manufacturers would leave item numbers and thumbnail
views of sold out/OOP cars on their websites for those of us thrying to
track down old cars.
Brian Carlson

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:16:13 -0800, Anthony Thompson wrote

Brian, Walthers used to make that decal, but I have heard it's
no longer available. I didn't know that P2K had ever done the DF
scheme with correct orange lettering (their SP "expert" told them it
should be yellow in the first run), but if they did, that would be a
good find.


Re: SP DF B-50-22

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brian J Carlson wrote:
Does anyone make decals for the orange and black "DF" rectangle applied to the SP boxcars starting in the mid 1950's. Alternatively, Does anyone know where I can locate a p2k kit for the 50' B-50-22 81574 it was lettered in this scheme? See the bottom photo on page 271 of SP Freight Cars V 4 for a photo.
Brian, Walthers used to make that decal, but I have heard it's no longer available. I didn't know that P2K had ever done the DF scheme with correct orange lettering (their SP "expert" told them it should be yellow in the first run), but if they did, that would be a good find.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Any HO Richfield Tank Cars available?

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:46 PM, espeeac12 wrote:

Where can I find data on this fleet of tank cars?

Obviously you guys are the best pool of knowledge out there for me to
tap and point me inthe right direction.
Miles,
I will offer what limited information I have on this subject. In the
4/55 ORER (the closest I have to 1954) Richfield Oil had 208 tank cars,
all listed as ARA II, ARA III, or ARA IV. With the ARA spec, rather
than ICC classes (i.e., 103 that replaced ARA III), this indicates the
cars were built pre-1930, and from 1930 and later new tank cars were
just stenciled with the ICC classification. For about 3 years from
1927-1929 new tank cars were often stenciled with both the ARA and ICC
classifications. The ORER list of cars provides the car number ranges
for each group of cars having a specified ARA classification and gallon
capacity.

I checked cars built new by AC&F from 7/25 and later. There were no new
tank cars with ROX reporting marks built by AC&F from 7/25 through the
mid-1950s. If Richfield had any AC&F Type 27 cars they got them second
hand.

In my personal photo collection I have a photo of ROX 102, a
10,000-gallon insulated car taken in Los Angeles on 2/4/57 available
from Bob's Photo. The last reweigh stencil is 2-49. I cannot read the
build date with any degree of certainty (possibly 1926) but can read
that the car was from GATC. It had heater pipes and was used for
asphalt. The car is much like the insulated 10K tank cars offered by
Life-Like except on a General American underframe. Bob's Photo also has
ROX 660, built 11-24. I don't have this photo but know of its
existence.

I am willing to scan the list from the 4/55 ORER. Contact me off-list
at hawk0621@sbcglobal.net if you are interested.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: N&W 90/100-ton Gondola Class GK and GS FC Diag Shts

jfbrewer@...
 

Al,

Check out the archives materials of the NWHS here:

http://nwhs.org/archivesdb/rollingstock.php?RRSelect=N%26W+Rwy&CatSelect=Freight&TypeSelect=Gondola

Scroll down to whatever class you want to view to see what is available. Hope this helps.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "al.kresse" <water.kresse@comcast.net>
Folks,

I'm looking for the post-USRA original, as-built N&W Freight CAr
Diagram sheets for the N&W's 90-ton GKs and 100-ton GS 6-wheel gondola
cars . . . . again, prefer as built, or even take as modified.

Thanks for any leads, or access to these diag shts,

Al Kresse
Romeo, MIchigan
getting snow


Re: Anybody have any info about Richfield's Tank Car fleet?

Bruce Smith
 

Tony asked
Want to tell us where you started? Have you looked at Equipment
Registers, photos in books, Wikipedia, etc.? Or starting from zero?
On Dec 19, 2008, at 3:56 AM, espeeac12 wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's start at Zero. I don't want you to make
any assumptions as to what I did and didn't research so perhaps I can
get a fuller perspective on the topic of the Richfield Tank car fleet.
Miles,

You might want to rephrase that <G>. It would personally annoy me to go look something up only to find out that you already had that information so I'm unlikely to do anything until I know where you are at. It may well be that you've found nothing, but hey, tell us where you looked already anyway, it helps narrow the search! And if you do have some resources, let us know what they are!

How can I access ORER's? (Is there an online database, or would my
local library have them on hand?)
Not on-line, maybe in the library, or you can buy them on CD from Westerield, as has been mentioned many times on this list (Al has the Jan 1955 ORER which is pretty close to your 1954 era). However, it is likely that the ORER won't help you much other than to know the number of cars in the fleet and some general information about capacity. Probably your best bet is to look for photos and then identify car types from those.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Steam Freight Cars and a bike.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-19-08/Wheeling.jpg

Just wondered what comments I might get on the cars in the background.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!


N&W 90/100-ton Gondola Class GK and GS FC Diag Shts

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Folks,

I'm looking for the post-USRA original, as-built N&W Freight CAr
Diagram sheets for the N&W's 90-ton GKs and 100-ton GS 6-wheel gondola
cars . . . . again, prefer as built, or even take as modified.

Thanks for any leads, or access to these diag shts,

Al Kresse
Romeo, MIchigan
getting snow


Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic model in our future?

Larry Kline
 

The O scale B&O M-53 Wagon Top is available from Rails Unlimited
http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Models/40boxcars.html

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Morrill" <badlands@...> wrote:

John,
Is the B&O boxcar available now? I do not find any mention of it
on the SCMW web pages.
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mateyko" <rattler21@...>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 2:28 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: B&O M-53 Wagon Top - any hope of a plastic
model in ourfuture?

St. Charles Model Works has one in O scale.

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