Date   

Re: New file uploaded to STMFC

ljack70117@...
 

Why do you consider this an unexpected use of a reefer? They did it all the time in winter to keep the beer from freezing. Or in this case in July to keep it from over heating.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Feb 24, 2007, at 9:22 PM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Jmstwn Conti Schlitz.jpg
Uploaded by : angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
Description : Unexpected use of a reefer?

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Jmstwn%20Conti%20Schlitz.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>






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Re: Car travel - example

ljack70117@...
 

Gentleman. Car rules and where cars went are two Horses of different colors. On the RRs I worked for the yard clerk on duty and the engine forman on duty set the car use rules. We cared nothing about what some one put on paper. The XXX flour mill told the agent They want 10 cars for loading by 7 AM tomorrow. The agent sends a memo to the yard office saying XXX wants 10 cars by 7 AM. The day clerks do not care about the message. Leave it for the night man. The night man comes on at 11 PM. The first thing he does is read all messages on the "spike" and he makes notes. The night engine forman is also coming on duty and is also reading the same notes. The clerk checks The yard list for MTYs and sees a string of 15 cars in south one. He points this out to the forman and says give XXX ten of those. By 7 AM the switch crew has pulled 10 MTY Box cars out of south one and set them at the XXX mill.
Please note so far nothing has been said about who owns the cars. Nobody cares. The first time the car numbers come into play is when XXX mill make a bills of lading and sends them to the RR billing office which in a small yard or towns is the agent. They make way bills and send them to the Yard office with a note that says to pull these loads and give the mill 10 more cars. The cars are put in to the train and AWAY they go.
So a B&O car got loaded to Canada. Made money did it not. Who cared what the rules were.
I would bet no body knew where this car was going until it was loaded and the bill of lading was given to the billing office. Yes the B&O car should have gone back to the B&O. But it did not so are we going to file charges against the clerk and others and sentence them to 6 months in jail. Keep the shippers happy.
Please answer a question for me. When you guys get in to the records what are you looking for? Why does it bother you that a B&O car went to Canada and not back to the B&O? Rules were made to be broken. Keep the the RR moving.
This is not intended to put anyone down. But I just do not see any reason to worry about what they did 40/50 years ago. Could we say it was because they wanted to? Just maybe it was the only MTY box car they had in the yard.
Was that an N&W hopper I saw going over Sherman Hill? Big grin 8>)
O yes One more thing. In a yards like Salina Ks the XXX mill would have called the yard office for the cars and the Chief Clerk would have made the note about the cars.
Bed Time.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Feb 24, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

OK, now I realize that one example "don't mean nuttin' " in the grand scheme of things, but this
list might find this "memorandum" interesting, as it illustrates that cars are, indeed, loaded to go
diametrically away from their home road, most likely for the convenience of the local agent.

I've discussed this "memorandum" with Malcolm Laughlin, and we agree that this is probably a sheet
in a multiple-sheet form. Most likely, this is the same typing that created the waybill, and maybe
a few other forms. As Malcolm commented, "Typists in those days had strong fingers." This
particular sheet was sent to Tom Conti Inc, evidently a beverage distributor in Jamestown NY. But
it shows that the nearly 16 tons of empty bottles (in cartons) to be returned to Montreal were
loaded into B&O 265135, routed via Black Rock on the ERIE to interchange to the CN, who's to deliver
the car. Now, according to the rules, shouldn't this car have been routed back to the B&O? Or is
this one made more complex by the rules involved with Canadian cars?

The charges aren't noted, but there's some handwritten notes saying:
648 @.75
738 @ .50

Now 1386 is the sum of those two quantities, and that's the number of the first line . . .but why
are they at two different rates? And what about the other two lines of 20 and 22 pounds?

And what brewer was at 990 Notre Dame Street W, Montreal 3, Canada?

The image I'm showing you is in the STMFC Files section, entitled "Jmstwn Conti to Montreal.jpg" I
forgot to check off "Send a notice to the list."

SGL



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Re: Car travel - Unexpected use of a URTX reefer

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
What I thought interesting about this one is that the car used, URTX 60013, of which I can't find an on-line photo, is likely a meat reefer . . .
In any event, if that IS a meat reefer, isn't it a bit odd that The Beer That Made Milwaukee Famous
was shipped in a MEAT reefer, which I was under the impression were unsuitable for shipping anything other than meat?
The 1950 ORER which I have lists URTX 60005-60044 as RSM (meat) but warns of "exceptions," which I cannot find listed. But this did not UNFIT such a car for other use (it could have been a bit smaller in inside length due to ice bunker size, but not this series). But one could well question why Union did not simply use one of their RS cars--unless this is the old dodge of concealing the nature of the cargo, as was done with DSDX cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Car travel - Unexpected use of a URTX reefer

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I've uploaded another image to the STMFC files of ERIE paperwork, this time a freight bill to the
beverage distributor in Jamestown, Tom Conti Inc. This one shows a shipment of full bottles and
cans from Schlitz , from CHEST[nut] ST STA, MILW WIS. To Tom Conti Inc in Jamestown NY. Over 27
tons of beer.

What I thought interesting about this one is that the car used, URTX 60013, of which I can't find an
on-line photo, is likely a meat reefer, based on the photo of URTX 60421 that I did find, on RR
Picture Archives.net. See
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=11568
Now, I don't know if that car is a) really similar to what 60013 was like, or b) if 60421 was even
built by 1949. 60013 could be a completely different car. That image above is from 1967, well
after sundown for this list.

In any event, if that IS a meat reefer, isn't it a bit odd that The Beer That Made Milwaukee Famous
was shipped in a MEAT reefer, which I was under the impression were unsuitable for shipping anything
other than meat? This IS after the advent of boxed beef, but still . . .

Note that the beer is shipped NOT UNDER ICE DO NOT ICE KEEP VENTS CLOSED so it's really being used
as a insulated box car. But what does PTNS 2212 514 mean?

SGL


Re: Mainline Modeler back issue sale

James Eckman
 

Bound printed matter will work and over $5 is cheaper, watch out for the undeliverable clause though!
The final word on all matters postal.
http://www.usps.com/

Jim Eckman


Unexpected use of a reefer?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Description : Unexpected use of a reefer?
Nope. In this situation the car was being used as an insulated box car, in the days before purpose-built box cars like that existed. This was a common use of reefers in fact.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Jmstwn Conti Schlitz.jpg
Uploaded by : angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
Description : Unexpected use of a reefer?

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Jmstwn%20Conti%20Schlitz.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

angus502001 <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>


Car travel - example

Schuyler Larrabee
 

OK, now I realize that one example "don't mean nuttin' " in the grand scheme of things, but this
list might find this "memorandum" interesting, as it illustrates that cars are, indeed, loaded to go
diametrically away from their home road, most likely for the convenience of the local agent.

I've discussed this "memorandum" with Malcolm Laughlin, and we agree that this is probably a sheet
in a multiple-sheet form. Most likely, this is the same typing that created the waybill, and maybe
a few other forms. As Malcolm commented, "Typists in those days had strong fingers." This
particular sheet was sent to Tom Conti Inc, evidently a beverage distributor in Jamestown NY. But
it shows that the nearly 16 tons of empty bottles (in cartons) to be returned to Montreal were
loaded into B&O 265135, routed via Black Rock on the ERIE to interchange to the CN, who's to deliver
the car. Now, according to the rules, shouldn't this car have been routed back to the B&O? Or is
this one made more complex by the rules involved with Canadian cars?

The charges aren't noted, but there's some handwritten notes saying:
648 @.75
738 @ .50

Now 1386 is the sum of those two quantities, and that's the number of the first line . . .but why
are they at two different rates? And what about the other two lines of 20 and 22 pounds?

And what brewer was at 990 Notre Dame Street W, Montreal 3, Canada?

The image I'm showing you is in the STMFC Files section, entitled "Jmstwn Conti to Montreal.jpg" I
forgot to check off "Send a notice to the list."

SGL


Re: Car travel of hoppers including "strays"

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Tony,

Yes, that makes sense to me. One thing I found amusing when I first
hired out was the mimeographed "Nite Orders" for the four CB&Q yards
from Congress Park East. They were usually all on one page. There
was a large modern Freight House at Cicero they called "House Nine"
I think the only tenant was "TFCA" as in "Terminal Freight Cooperative
Association". They handled, (and were probably owned by), all Sears
Roebuck's forwarder traffic. What was amusing was the normal instruction
each day would be: "XX 40ft commons to House Nine" Then it would be:
"XX 40ft clean outs to Wedron" Wedron meant Wedron Silica and they loaded
bulk or bagged sand. They were the ones that got the cars that had been
cleaned. TFCA got anything and everything.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 24 February, 2007 17:42
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car travel of hoppers including "strays"



This reminds me of the time Larry Kline, C.J. Riley and I were
hiking along the WM in West Virginia and found a discarded switch list.
It directed that for a particular mine, "five red hoppers."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bad order cars...?

Martin Rosenfeld
 

With all the discussion lately about handling of foreign revenue cars, I was wondering about how foreign bad order cars were handled. Did the road on which they went bad fix them? Did the fixer charge the owner? How were rates set for repairs? Etc., etc?

Martin Rosenfeld


Re: Car Travel

al_brown03
 

And rules or no, cars got to surprising places. In Ferrell's "Slow
Trains Down South", vol 1, p 31, there's a picture of Algoma Central
40' SS boxcar 3180 -- on the Middle Fork Railroad in West Virginia,
behind a Heisler locomotive.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Car travel of hoppers including "strays"

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
It would be extremely rare to find an L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey. To get to NJ, they would have to be loaded on their home road for a destination in some place like Ohio. After being unloaded in Ohio, they were put on an empty track with a lot of other hoppers. The
yard crews are directed to send empties to a mine in western PA. Instead of separating the cars by ownership, the yard crews send the whole string including the L&M and Interstate hoppers to western PA.
This reminds me of the time Larry Kline, C.J. Riley and I were hiking along the WM in West Virginia and found a discarded switch list. It directed that for a particular mine, "five red hoppers."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Car travel of hoppers including "strays"

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

sc279373 wrote:

What I have been trying to find out and Ted's book has provided photo
evidence is how far east did western road box cars go.
I'm aware that you would'nt have a whole raft of say,CGW cars,in Enola
Yard,but the odd one or two maybe.
I used to model CGW and M&STL,now I model CNJ,but I did'nt want to get
rid of the models I have nor re-paint them.
Now bearing in mind,all thats been said so far regarding hoppers...
would you find a L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey.
Yes I have models of both,but could you put them in,say ,a raft of PRR
or CNJ hoppers?








It would be extremely rare to find an L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey. To get to NJ, they would have to be loaded on their home road for a destination in some place like Ohio. After being unloaded in Ohio, they were put on an empty track with a lot of other hoppers. The yard crews are directed to send empties to a mine in western PA. Instead of separating the cars by ownership, the yard crews send the whole string including the L&M and Interstate hoppers to western PA. There the hoppers were loaded with the Interstate and L&M hoppers among other hoppers loaded with coal for New Jersey. Thus, "stray" hoppers such as L&M and Interstate were created - "stray" meaning outside their normal operating range.

A hopper's operating range can be defined as the customers served by the mines in an area served by a "home road." If the coal was special and in demand such as the coal mined on the N&W, then the operating range of an N&W hopper could be large including going over UP's Sherman Hill in Wyoming. For common coal with no special characteristics, the normal operating range of a hopper could be quite limited.

Tim Gilbert



Dennis Blake

Richard Hendrickson
 

Dennis Blake, please contact me off-list.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Car Travel

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Russ Strodtz wrote:
Same response for both questions. In the era prior to computers access to ORER's at the local level was very limited. They were expensive and many locations considered themselves to be lucky to even have a four or five year old copy. Most smaller Agencies would not even be on a distribution list for used ones.
I understand, and others have said the same. But your previous statement implied there might BE no rule. I merely pointed out that there was indeed a rule (whether or not it was observed).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Car travel

Barry Roth
 

This is close to what I was going to say. Except for the fortunate legacy of actual photos we have, all questions of this kind boil down to likelihoods. We can talk about the general principles of car handling (without 100 % agreement, I note). But those only provide a context -- not even what a statistician would call a probability. So, except when there's a good argument that something is implausible, the answer is, do what makes you comfortable.

Barry Roth

ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:
Go ahead and use them. Unless someone can find a photo of them NOT
being that far east they can not prove there were NOT there. Big grin.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Feb 24, 2007, at 4:37 PM, sc279373 wrote:

What I have been trying to find out and Ted's book has provided photo
evidence is how far east did western road box cars go.
I'm aware that you would'nt have a whole raft of say,CGW cars,in Enola
Yard,but the odd one or two maybe.
I used to model CGW and M&STL,now I model CNJ,but I did'nt want to get
rid of the models I have nor re-paint them.
Now bearing in mind,all thats been said so far regarding hoppers...
would you find a L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey.
Yes I have models of both,but could you put them in,say ,a raft of PRR
or CNJ hoppers?
Thanks for all previous info.
Steve


.





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with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.


Re: Car travel

ljack70117@...
 

Go ahead and use them. Unless someone can find a photo of them NOT being that far east they can not prove there were NOT there. Big grin.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Feb 24, 2007, at 4:37 PM, sc279373 wrote:

What I have been trying to find out and Ted's book has provided photo
evidence is how far east did western road box cars go.
I'm aware that you would'nt have a whole raft of say,CGW cars,in Enola
Yard,but the odd one or two maybe.
I used to model CGW and M&STL,now I model CNJ,but I did'nt want to get
rid of the models I have nor re-paint them.
Now bearing in mind,all thats been said so far regarding hoppers...
would you find a L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey.
Yes I have models of both,but could you put them in,say ,a raft of PRR
or CNJ hoppers?
Thanks for all previous info.
Steve



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Car travel

sc279373 <sccooper@...>
 

What I have been trying to find out and Ted's book has provided photo
evidence is how far east did western road box cars go.
I'm aware that you would'nt have a whole raft of say,CGW cars,in Enola
Yard,but the odd one or two maybe.
I used to model CGW and M&STL,now I model CNJ,but I did'nt want to get
rid of the models I have nor re-paint them.
Now bearing in mind,all thats been said so far regarding hoppers...
would you find a L&M or Interstate hopper in New Jersey.
Yes I have models of both,but could you put them in,say ,a raft of PRR
or CNJ hoppers?
Thanks for all previous info.
Steve


Re: Speedwitch & Sunshine

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Eric,

I did say Timonium didn't I. He did not sign up to go. He was still trying to cleanup past business from the October Timonium, Naperville and the West Springfield shows.

He had a lot of back-ordered kits and decals due to the materials not arriving prior to the shows. I just received the decals for several kits that I bought at Naperville. Ted sent me a set of new product sheets for equipment never before issued before, some of which will be available at the March RPM meet in Greensburg, Pa. and others that will be available sometime in the Spring this year.

With all that he has going on, including email problems, I am not surprised that he has not gotten back to some of those who have tried to reach him. He is working his way through the list and am sure that you will hear from him soon. Still, he is more accessible than Martin Lofton is at Sunshine. Martin is still backlogged, even more so, since the round of ice storms several weeks ago which left his shop without electrical power for eleven days. He no longer works out of the house, but out of a facility in an industrial park on the other side of Springfield, MO. I just received my June and July orders this past week with more to come.

All for now!

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479

Eric Hansmann wrote:

--- Tom Olsen wrote:
>
> I spoke to Ted this past week (the 15th) on the telephone in regard
to some decals owed from the meet at Naperville. He said that he has
been buried with Speedwitch work and, of course, the really inclement
weather here.
>
> He was catching up the orders from the back to back train shows at
West Springfield and Timonium and was going to mail out my stuff over
the weekend.
>
==============================
I did not see Speedwitch at the February 3rd Timonium show. Where was
the booth located?
Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Car Travel

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Frank/Tony,

Same response for both questions. In the era prior to computers
access to ORER's at the local level was very limited. They were
expensive and many locations considered themselves to be lucky
to even have a four or five year old copy. Most smaller Agencies
would not even be on a distribution list for used ones.

As to what was in the back beyond the private car listing all I
can say is that it made for interesting reading. The CB&Q was a
very frugal Railroad and had very few levels of authority. The
very top of the Transportation Department had the job title of
"General Superintendent of Transportation". Everything that had
anything to do with Transportation came out of his office over
his name or signature. When I started working for the Railroad
that position was filled by E.R. Craven. I do not know how long
he had been in that position. I can research it using old
timetables but would not be surprised if it had been 15 or 20
years.

As a naive 19 year old I once called him and asked him about the
rule back there about the required junction point for the return
of private cars. He gave me a curt and simple answer, "We do not
concern ourselves with which junction the NYC uses to return
private cars. Wherever they choose to give us the cars we will
get them to where we want them". While he did not say it there
was another implied but very obvious next sentence, "Just follow
the instructions from this office." Later I managed to get a job
interview with this man. He was the only person in that entire
department that did job interviews. During that interview he made
it quite explicit that he made all the decisions on every issue
in his department. I did not get the job and shortly afterwards
I got drafted. When I got out of the Army it was back to a new
Railroad. Mr. Menk was now in charge of the whole thing and while
I never spoke to him the general impression was that he was even
more dogmatic, the only difference being that he was in charge of
all departments, not just Transportation.

That is the best way I can describe how it really worked.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 24 February, 2007 13:14
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Car Travel


Russ Strodtz wrote:
> While I know that I may get dissenting opinions on this issue I do
> not know of any "rule" or policy that would require any road to move
> empty common boxes to their home roads.

How about AAR Car Service Rule 3? It says "foreign empty cars
SHALL BE . . . delivered empty to home road." (my emphasis) There are
further details in the Rule, including the notation that cars covered
by SCO 90 should be handled as provided therein.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Not sure how this fits, or how much this was an actual policy, but in the
back of my '53 ORER reprint there's this list of order of preference for
loading cars... won't reproduce it here, but basically it says to load
foreign cars to go as close to home as possible, so if you're ACL and have
a PGE car and a WP car and an ACL car available, and you've got a cargo
for Idaho, then you load the PGE car, because this will get it closer to
its home road...

Regards, Frank

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