Date   

Re: Tank cars and weight

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 10:34 PM 12/3/05, you wrote:
Doing a bit of digging and found info for 150 liquids.<http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_liquids.htm>; It is in metric but gives a conversion formula. It should be helpful to those of you wondering about such things as whale oil shipments.<GG>

Peter Bowers


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Re: US Army kit cars (was Texas State Railroad Collection)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gene Green


The Pentagon developed a line of five freight car kits that could be
assembled in the field by troop or indigenous labor using local
trucks, brakes and couplers cannibalized from damaged equipment.  The
five cars were flat, low-side gondola, high-side gondola, box and
tank cars.<<

This may be taking us away from the strict focus of the list but I do
wonder about the planners who came up with the idea of using
cannibalized trucks and brakes. In post war Europe and up into the
sixties only a few specialized types of freight equipment had more than
four wheels; bogies were reserved for passenger equipment and a few
wagons built for special loads - continuous brakes weren't especially
common either. I wonder where they expected to cannibalize the parts
from?

Aidrian
Who can just remember 8Fs and 9Fs on unfitted freights very carefully
creeping downhill.

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Re: PRR Decal survey for needs!

nickseman
 

and who knows when Middle Division re-enters the decal market) <<<
Sooner rather than later. We actually had some new items printed
recently but elected not to release them as I was not 100% satisfied
with the quality. Adjustments have been made and they are currently
being printed.

Our recent attention has been with our O scale X29 project which is why
the decals have been slow coming.

"PRR modelers don't know how good they have it..." <<<
What, you mean people actually model other railroads ?!?!?!

(Just kidding)

Middle Division
Nick Seman


Re: Tank cars and weight

al_brown03
 

Bromine is about 26 (twenty-six) pounds per gallon. To ship it, Dow
Chemical had some tanks of 2200-2300 gallon capacity, on 50-ton
trucks. Remembered after sending my previous message that Model
Railroader had an article on them, in the Feb '01 issue; the car
they show is of '60s vintage (looks like a dachshund puppy), but the
1/53 ORER shows four cars of similar size. The 1/43 ORER doesn't
show bromine cars, so the business apparently started after WWII.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Roger Parry <uncleroger@w...> wrote:

Diesel fuel #1 or #2, is 7.4 pounds per gallon.
On Dec 3, 2005, at 8:46 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Well, of course, it depended entirely on the commodity loaded
in the
car. Even on petroleum products, weight per gallon varied
widely,
which is why tank cars were measured and tariffs assessed on
the
basis
of gallonage, not weight. Also, tank cars certainly weren't
always
loaded to capacity, and in fact there were waybill notations
when
cars
were not fully loaded, as their contents tended to slop around
and
create problems with train handling.
For water, with a density of around that of oil, you can
calculate at about 8 pounds per gallon. But as Richard says,
liquids
shipped in tank cars varied quite widely in density, especially
after
1950, when a much wider variety of chemicals began to be so
shipped.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history



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Re: Tank cars and weight

al_brown03
 

For that matter *oil* varies in density ... but it's usually lighter
than water, hence oil slicks float. This doesn't matter for our
purposes, though, since the lading of a tank car is usually limited
by gallon capacity. 10 Kgal of *water* @ 8 lb/gal would weigh 40
tons, but as mentioned 10 Kgal of *oil* would be lighter, and a 10
Kgal oil tank car of our era usually has 50-ton trucks anyway.

Kaminski's tank car book has an extensive table of commodities
authorized for shipment. Densities of chemicals are available in a
chemistry handbook, e.g. Lange's or the CRC Handbook of Chemistry
and Physics. I'm not sure where to look up the density of something
like molasses, but there must be a standard industrial number
somewhere.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...>
wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Well, of course, it depended entirely on the commodity loaded in
the
car. Even on petroleum products, weight per gallon varied
widely,
which is why tank cars were measured and tariffs assessed on
the basis
of gallonage, not weight. Also, tank cars certainly weren't
always
loaded to capacity, and in fact there were waybill notations
when cars
were not fully loaded, as their contents tended to slop around
and
create problems with train handling.
For water, with a density of around that of oil, you can
calculate at about 8 pounds per gallon. But as Richard says,
liquids
shipped in tank cars varied quite widely in density, especially
after
1950, when a much wider variety of chemicals began to be so
shipped.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Tank cars and weight

Roger Parry <uncleroger@...>
 

Diesel fuel #1 or #2, is 7.4 pounds per gallon.

On Dec 3, 2005, at 8:46 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Well, of course, it depended entirely on the commodity loaded in the
car. Even on petroleum products, weight per gallon varied widely,
which is why tank cars were measured and tariffs assessed on the basis
of gallonage, not weight. Also, tank cars certainly weren't always
loaded to capacity, and in fact there were waybill notations when cars
were not fully loaded, as their contents tended to slop around and
create problems with train handling.
For water, with a density of around that of oil, you can
calculate at about 8 pounds per gallon. But as Richard says, liquids
shipped in tank cars varied quite widely in density, especially after
1950, when a much wider variety of chemicals began to be so shipped.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history



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Re: PRR Decal survey for needs!

Greg Martin
 

Tim writes:

"You mean out of TEN (!!!) recent Microscale full size box car sets (
87-1200 to 87-1209 ) that they actually missed a car???

PRR modelers don't know how good they have it...

Tim O."


And I can think of about 20 more we need that they could produce just to
keep the PRR guys happy, and we plan to get them all done... And they can take
all our dollars to the bank as we are even willing to do the research for them
for free.

Greg Martin


Re: Tank cars and weight

Tony Thompson
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Well, of course, it depended entirely on the commodity loaded in the
car. Even on petroleum products, weight per gallon varied widely,
which is why tank cars were measured and tariffs assessed on the basis
of gallonage, not weight. Also, tank cars certainly weren't always
loaded to capacity, and in fact there were waybill notations when cars
were not fully loaded, as their contents tended to slop around and
create problems with train handling.
For water, with a density of around that of oil, you can calculate at about 8 pounds per gallon. But as Richard says, liquids shipped in tank cars varied quite widely in density, especially after 1950, when a much wider variety of chemicals began to be so shipped.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Tank cars and weight

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 3, 2005, at 4:22 PM, PBowers wrote:

Has anyone a chart or info on conversion of tank car gallonage to tons. I
have info which refers to tank car loads in tons. These range from 22 tons
to 42 tons. Looking at the 22 ton load, I was wondering would a customer
buy less than a full car? Personally I never seen oil in less than carload
lots.
Well, of course, it depended entirely on the commodity loaded in the car. Even on petroleum products, weight per gallon varied widely, which is why tank cars were measured and tariffs assessed on the basis of gallonage, not weight. Also, tank cars certainly weren't always loaded to capacity, and in fact there were waybill notations when cars were not fully loaded, as their contents tended to slop around and create problems with train handling.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: PRR Decal survey for needs!

Tim O'Connor
 

Ben

I see no reason for personal attacks. I do help out with decals
and plenty else, and not only for my "own road" whatever that is.

P.S. I've only been interested in trains for 50 years so I don't
know what CK or PK mean. Nevertheless I feel certain that there
are perfectly accurate decals for less than 5% of prototype cars,
and I stand by my observation.

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"You mean out of TEN (!!!) recent Microscale full size box car
sets ( 87-1200 to 87-1209 ) that they actually missed a car???"

Actually, the TEN sets only cover two groups of schemes - Shadow
Keystone and the Merchandise Service schemes. They don't address the
CK schemes (Champ's stock won't last forever, and who knows when
Middle Division re-enters the decal market) nor the PK scheme (of
which the coverage in any scale is pathetic).

"PRR modelers don't know how good they have it..."

Would it make you happy if we cease all new product development work?
If you want to make decals for your own road happen, how about helping
out instead of being a smart ass?

Ben Hom


Tank cars and weight

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

Has anyone a chart or info on conversion of tank car gallonage to tons. I have info which refers to tank car loads in tons. These range from 22 tons to 42 tons. Looking at the 22 ton load, I was wondering would a customer buy less than a full car? Personally I never seen oil in less than carload lots.

Peter Bowers


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P2k SSW 50' box car

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

For those interested in doing the modifications to model this car, I've found that a mix of Badger Model flex Dark Tuscan Oxide Red with a touch of Light tuscan oxide red comes close enough to a match for my model. I don't require precision, as mine will be a well weathered model. If there is a complaint about this match, it is that the Badger colours are not quite as strong - like a drop of white was added in. But for a weathered look, that effect actually looks pretty good.

Rob Kirkham


Re: PRR Decal survey for needs!

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"You mean out of TEN (!!!) recent Microscale full size box car
sets ( 87-1200 to 87-1209 ) that they actually missed a car???"

Actually, the TEN sets only cover two groups of schemes - Shadow
Keystone and the Merchandise Service schemes. They don't address the
CK schemes (Champ's stock won't last forever, and who knows when
Middle Division re-enters the decal market) nor the PK scheme (of
which the coverage in any scale is pathetic).


"PRR modelers don't know how good they have it..."

Would it make you happy if we cease all new product development work?
If you want to make decals for your own road happen, how about helping
out instead of being a smart ass?


Ben Hom


Re: AC&F Type 7 detail (was Texas State RR Col.)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 2, 2005, at 10:02 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

The photo of Pennsylvania Oil Refining Co. #641 leads me to think AC&F type
7.
Correct.

Does anyone have a way of estimating the gallons this tank was designed to
hold? It looks like the MDC Old Timer tank would be a decent candidate,
provided its a small 6500 gallon tank.
Definitely an 8K gal. tank.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Life Like P2k 10k Insulated Tankcar Type 21

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@s...> wrote:
How many of these cars were used for casinghead isn't clear. My
understanding is that automobile gasoline produced in refineries,
rather than at the casinghead, became commercial in the 1920s. The
consistency and safety issues with natural gasoline would seem good
reasons to switch over as soon as practical.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Quoting the aforementioned book (1931):

"Some forty years ago (1891?) gasoline was a waste product without value or known use.
Great quantities of gasoline were thrown away since kerosene was the saleable refinery
product. Gasoline, given off with the lighter vapors from refining crude oil, was explosive,
dangerous, and a great annoyance to the refiners. They cursed it with vehemence and oil
men are vehement cursers. In fact, it is estimated that 45.5% of all of the profanity around
the refinery in those days had its genesis in this outlaw gasoline. It was, at the same time,
a constant source of danger from fire and explosion. It became respectable and demanded
an honest place in petroleum products only when the first automobile appeared in 1892.
By 1900 there were 8,000 registered automobiles in the United States and in that year the
refiners sold, instead of throwing away and wasting, 260 million gallons of gasoline. In the
year 1930 there were 26,500,000 automobiles registered in the United States and about
9,000,000 more in the rest of the world. The gasoline demand in the United States in
1930, for operating our own automobiles alone, was approximately 17,000,000,000
gallons."........."The art of cracking petroleums and the automobile industry have grown up
together and it is very likely that the rapid increase in the use of automobiles would have
been impossible if the oil industry had not developed the cracking processes to supply the
necessary motor fuel."

Regarding casinghead gasoline: ........."The gasoline from natural gas is called
casinghead gasoline, or natural gasoline, because it is very frequently drawn from the
casinghead of the oil well."......."This casinghead gasoline is known as a high-test gasoline
as it boils at a lower temperature than other gasolines. It is used under low temperature
conditions as encountered by airplanes in the higher air or by automobiles in cold regions.
Large quantities of casinghead gasoline are used to blend with ordinary gasoline so as to
make the mixture more volatile."........."During the year 1929 over two billion gallons of
natural gasoline were produced and shipped, entirely in insulated tank cars."

The book includes a chart showing the amount of natural gasoline produced from 1912 to
1930 - a steady rise from 10 million gallons to about 2.3 billion gallons.

I wonder how they calculated with any precision the amount of cursing related to the early
production of unwanted gasoline????? Who tabulated the records????? (-:

Pat Wider


Re: L&A Howe Truss Boxcars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 3, 2005, at 10:38 AM, cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:

FANTASTIC Pat, The photo answers all my question except what type power hand
brakes these cars were equiped with. I am assuming they were Ajax, but can
anybody else put the last piece of this puzzle in place. Thanks in advance.
Paul Lyons
Paul, I have a photo of one of these cars (with Superior doors) renumbered KCS 7668, and it had an Ajax hand brake. (None of the other photos I have show the B end.)

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Life Like P2k 10k Insulated Tankcar Type 21

Tony Thompson
 

Pat Wider wrote:
The book "GENERAL AMERICAN TANK CAR JOURNEYS, Where Industrial Liquids Come From
and Where They Go", published in 1931 by GATC, has a very informative description of
Casinghead Gasoline among other liquid products. This is a must-have book for tank car
fans. It confirms that the material was shipped in insulated tank cars.
As Scott Chatfield explained, there were good reasons that casinghead gasoline was so shipped.

A quick check of my
AC&F tank car builder's photos circa 1926-1930 disclosed insulated tank cars lettered for
Empire Gasoline Co. (Cities Service), Roxana Petroleum Corp. (Shell), Sinclair Oils, Tagolene
(Skelly Oil Co.), The Texas Co. (TEXACO), Mexican Petroleum Corp. (PAN-AM OILS), Warren
Petroleum Co., and Columbian Gasoline Corp. Other cars obviously for tar were:
Montazuma Asphalt (Pan American Petroleum Co.), Tarvia (The Barrett Co.), and ROTAR
(Dominion Tar & Chemical Co.).
How many of these cars were used for casinghead isn't clear. My understanding is that automobile gasoline produced in refineries, rather than at the casinghead, became commercial in the 1920s. The consistency and safety issues with natural gasoline would seem good reasons to switch over as soon as practical.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: AC&F Type 7 detail (was Texas State RR Col.)

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Good point Len. I was also intrigued by the odd shaped right spring in the truck. Not made of rod shaped material, or coated with something (or both?)

Rob Kirkham

Rob,

The size of the tank looks to be a 7 or 8000 gallon barrel, probably
built in the late 1920's. But more exciting to me, is the close-up of
a 50 ton Vulcan truck, with Timkin roller bearings in it!

Len Cannor


Re: Life Like P2k 10k Insulated Tankcar Type 21

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:

Andy

I just remembered that "natural gasoline" also was shipped in
insulated tank cars. I think another name for this is casinghead
gas. Sunshine produced a model of a Warren ICC 104 tank car
that was built for this service.

Tim O.
The book "GENERAL AMERICAN TANK CAR JOURNEYS, Where Industrial Liquids Come From
and Where They Go", published in 1931 by GATC, has a very informative description of
Casinghead Gasoline among other liquid products. This is a must-have book for tank car
fans. It confirms that the material was shipped in insulated tank cars. A quick check of my
AC&F tank car builder's photos circa 1926-1930 disclosed insulated tank cars lettered for
Empire Gasoline Co. (Cities Service), Roxana Petroleum Corp. (Shell), Sinclair Oils, Tagolene
(Skelly Oil Co.), The Texas Co. (TEXACO), Mexican Petroleum Corp. (PAN-AM OILS), Warren
Petroleum Co., and Columbian Gasoline Corp. Other cars obviously for tar were:
Montazuma Asphalt (Pan American Petroleum Co.), Tarvia (The Barrett Co.), and ROTAR
(Dominion Tar & Chemical Co.).

Pat Wider


Re: PRR Decal survey for needs!

Tim O'Connor
 

You mean out of TEN (!!!) recent Microscale full size box car
sets ( 87-1200 to 87-1209 ) that they actually missed a car???

PRR modelers don't know how good they have it..

Tim O.

I agree with you that the X40B decals are a need. Walthers 934-
77110 (HO) shows its age. If someone has Champ HB-155, could you
check it for X40B data? It's still available and listed as
applicable for 40, 50, and 60 ft cars, but I'd like to make sure.
http://www.minot.com/~champ/p-ho.htm#PENNSY
Ben Hom

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