Date   

Re: Useful photo

Tim O'Connor
 

Anybody care to speculate on the milk car colors? I wasn't aware that they used outlined
lettering.
Walt Lankenau
Yes I think that is the red scheme with white outlined letters.
I've never seen a good photo of that scheme until this one.


Re: New file uploaded to STMFC - Bill Darnaby's NKP Movement Data from Swift's Frankfort IN Bean Plant

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

An EXCEL spreadsheet of Bill Darnaby's NKP Movements has been uploaded into the Group's Files. This spreadsheet should be downloaded , and re-sorted to determine whatever is desired. Right now, the sort is ordered Car Type, Region of Ownership, Destination & Consignee, but I am sure that those who want to model their favorite RR's equipment would want to re-sort the "Mark" (short for reporting mark) column.

Bill Darnaby provided data for 298 cars: - 80 of them Tanks, and 218 of them Boxcars.

The owners of the tanks cars are 53 GATX (includes SWTX); 2 Interstate Tank Car Co.; 8 NATX (including AESX); 12 SHPX and 5 UTLX. Who owned the car depended largely on who the consignee was.

Of the 282 Boxcars, 90 of them were owned by the Home Road (NKP and W&LE or 0.5 in the spreadsheet). The high number of home road boxcars employed was due to the easy supply of empties after cars had been shopped in Frankfort IN.

Five were Canadian Owned (0.8 in the Spreadsheet). That leaves 123 US-Owned Foreign Boxcars listed. The Table below breaks down the ownership of these 123 boxcars into the ICC Regions. The first numeric column reflects the total boxcars owned by RR's in the specified ICC Region reported in the spreadsheet. The second numeric column reflects how many boxcars would have been reported if there was a proportional distribution of the 123 boxcars using the percentage of boxcars each region owned of the National Boxcar Fleet on 12/31/1949.

Region As Reported Proportion of
in Spreadsheet 1949 Roster Variance
1.0) New England 4 3 1 2.0) Great Lakes 15 21 (6)
3.0) Central East 16 21 (5)
4.0) Pocahontas 6 5 1
5.0) Southern 20 19 1
6.0) Northwest 18 21 (3)
7.0) Central West 30 23 7
8.0) Southwest 14 11 3
Total 123 124 (1)

The minus 1 variance is due to rounding. The Great Lakes Region's total was reduced by the 11,255 Boxcars owned by the NKP.

While not perfect, this data does not refute my contention that the US-Owned Foreign Boxcars on any line were roughly in the same proportion as the percentage of the national boxcar fleet a railroad owned. This would be a start if such data as Bill Darnaby compiled was not available.

Tim Gilbert


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /1949nkpmovements.xls
Uploaded by : timgilbert17851 <tgilbert@...>
Description : Excel Spreadsheet of Swift's Frankfort IN Shipments - Bill Darnaby's Data

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/1949nkpmovements.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

timgilbert17851 <tgilbert@...>


Re: Black car Cement

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Pat Wider wrote:
Note that "red" car cement was also applied to some freight cars during the period of
interest. All of this is apparent in the AC&F freight car bills of materials.
This is what PFE used on reefer roofs and ends: red car cement.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Useful photo

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Tim,

I think that the small lettering over the journal boxes is the
numbering of the journals. In this case... R3 and R4.

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Oct 22, 2005, at 9:53 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


>One of those wreck photos that let you see some interesting stuff
can be seen here:
>http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-10-20-05
>SGL


Great photo Schuyler! Any idea of the date of the milk train wreck?
I've been searching for a long time for a good in service photo of
one of the Borden's cars... Lots of tiny lettering on the trucks:
I can make out A.A.R. but what is beneath it? I can see 2 letters
or digits over the left journal box, but can't make them out.

Tim O'Connor


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Black car Cement

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

And in some cases, black paint was applied over the black car cement where the end
lettering was to be applied. Aluminum pigment paint was then applied over the black paint
that was on top of the black car cement - apparently in an effort to avoid any bleed-
through of the car cement from affecting the legibility of the end lettering, which would
otherwise have been white stencil paste or paint.

Note that "red" car cement was also applied to some freight cars during the period of
interest. All of this is apparent in the AC&F freight car bills of materials.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Galvanized steel running boards
were often applied after the car cement coating and were not painted,
though of course they got a coating of car cement if the car was
repainted later.
This is certainly true. But some railroads, such as SP, carefully
painted the steel running board with body color after applying car
cement, and in some cases we know about, painted body color over the
car cement on roofs and ends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@s...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Useful photo

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:

Great photo Schuyler! Any idea of the date of the milk train wreck?
The caption accompanying the locomotive photo says 1941, at Millburn, NJ.

Anybody care to speculate on the milk car colors? I wasn't aware that they used outlined
lettering.

Walt Lankenau


Re: Accumate Proto:HO couplers

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., "David Ball" <davidball@x> wrote:
>
> Has it been determined the practical minimum radius the PROTO:HO couple can
> be used for effective operation? I'm thinking literally how tight can the
> radius be before it may cause problems for the coupler,
> David Ball

The
design criteria for the PROTO:HO was simply to put a scale size coupler
head on a shank that would fit within the confines of a steam era center
sill, and then make it compatible with the other magnetic couplers
currently in use. How well it would work on train set radius was a
secondary consideration, although the original layout drawings indicate
that equal sized cars equipped with the PROTO:HO couplers should be able to
negotiate a 15" radius curve.
Dennis Storzek
On the Claremont & Concord in New Hampshire, a former electric railway, due to tight
curvature a 50-foot boxcar could not be placed in the Coy Paper Co. spur unless the
knuckles were removed from the car and the locomotive (a 44-tonner). A steel drawbar
was then used to connect the two, held in place by the knuckle pins. I don't remember how
long the drawbar was (maybe 12-18 inches), but using it gave enough clearance for the
engine and car to negotitate the curve into the mill. Anybody care to try THAT in HO Scale?

Walt Lankenau


Re: Useful photo

Tim O'Connor
 

One of those wreck photos that let you see some interesting stuff can be seen here:
http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-10-20-05
SGL

Great photo Schuyler! Any idea of the date of the milk train wreck?
I've been searching for a long time for a good in service photo of
one of the Borden's cars... Lots of tiny lettering on the trucks:
I can make out A.A.R. but what is beneath it? I can see 2 letters
or digits over the left journal box, but can't make them out.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Weathering, etc.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 22, 2005, at 4:40 AM, Armand Premo wrote:

Could this have resulted from wartime neglect more than
anything?.Playing catch-up was a long drawn out process.A "War weary" fleet
was slowly being repaired or replaced.
Wartime neglect was certainly a factor, but not "more than anything." Prewar color photos (and there are some, though not many) show that cars in the North American freight car fleet got dirty very rapidly, and that most cars were a lot more grimy than was true after diesel locos replaced steam.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: new Sunshines kits and F&C promises

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

Here is a list of things F&C will be issuing in the next few months,
based on my conversations.

L&N and NYC 36 foot boxcars
SAL B5
NC&StL gondolas
CofG ventilated boxcar
reissue of Wabash SS autocars w/improvements

All of these are due immanently.

These conversations go back 4-5 years

Bill Welch


--- In STMFC@..., "Miller, Andrew S." <asmiller@m...>
wrote:

Just to add to the drool, last year, at Springfield, when I talk
with
Steve Funero, he claimed to be working on a PRR X29b for release
this
year.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of
Gatwood, Elden
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:51 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] new Sunshines kits?

Hi all;

Does anyone know any details on the following new Sunshine
offerings,
as
listed in the 12th Naperville summary:



Bethlehem 52' gon?



NKP 48' gon?



GTW WE gon?



Milw 50' boxcars?



"Eastern" 10' IH 7' door boxcars?



"Distressed" 40' gon?



PRR X29B and X26C box cars?



Are they 1-piece bodies? What variants? Anything at all?



Needless to say, I am very interested in all of these, but I would
like
to drool a little.



Thanks!



Elden Gatwood




















Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Digest Number 2741

Earl Myers <emyers5@...>
 

Ed;
The ABB switcher does not have the typical bellpaire firebox, almost the trademark of the Pennsy. It is an rarly style tho and coulda been turn of the century stuff before the renumbering/reclassing started.
Earl

----- Original Message -----
From: <STMFC@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 4:01 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Digest Number 2741



There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
2. RE: Re: Paint removal
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...>
3. Re: Black car Cement
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:57:19 -0400
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
Subject: Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Richard Hendrickson writes:

To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet
fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh
paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty
the lettering is scarcely visible.
I second that motion. I WILL say that Richard...I believe...is targeting
1947 as the end of his time period. Is that right? It WAS a VERY good yr, of
course. The Yankees won the Series, after all. But, I do 1953/4...another
VERY good time...Yankees won in '53 anyhow. But by '53/'54 the RRs were
losing older cars rapidly and newer, cleaner ones were coming on line.
Still, photos of the time clearly show a rainbow effect with regard to PFE
trains. Every imaginable rendition of Daylight Orange shows up in reefer
trains of the time even though the original paint was the same [ within
limits of course ]. From dirty, hardly readable lettering to bright and
shiny. The same applies to box cars. Some of even the same type are both
clean and dirty. A look at the trains in the video Big Boy Collection and
Hooters Over The Blue Ridge shows these variations. Such movie sources as
these should not be overlooked. The one constant that does show up is that
Pennsy cars...other than very new ones...seem to be dirtier than others.
Sorry...it's just the way it was. <g>.

Mike Brock




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:59:20 -0400
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Subject: RE: Re: Paint removal

You can sand it off, if it's not to obstructed by ribs'n'rivets, with 600 or greater grit wet'n'dry
sandpaper. I have done this with lettering, and also have fixed paint muck-ups on cars I've been
painting the same way. Removed 87x oversize fingerprints, no trouble.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Manfred Lorenz
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:21 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Paint removal

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Weiss" <wrw13@y...> wrote:

Manfred,

I have tried alcohol (denatured and 70% iso) and Polyscale paint
remover, neither of which worked. The PS did a good job of removing
the
paint, but the lettering is as good as new!

Bill
Bill,

That's too bad. IIRC some folks say 90% iso is the only way to go.
But I have no experience with this.

The late Hosam (http://www.hosam.com) has a website where he
had collected posts from other lists like the RPM. Here is
the page about paintstrippers. Might help to avoid at least
the paint coming off:
http://www.hosam.com/paint/stripc.html

I think the lettering is printed anyway. So a tool like the
MicroMark scraper (abrasive again) might help to get it off.
It is essentially a chisel that has triangular profile if
looked at from the side. A good tool to remove unwanted cast
on details and helps to avoid gouging. Perhaps worth a try.
You put the flat, ground off area on the surface and work it
like a plane.

http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?
MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82709

Manfred






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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:42:23 -0700
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Subject: Re: Black car Cement

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Galvanized steel running boards
were often applied after the car cement coating and were not painted,
though of course they got a coating of car cement if the car was
repainted later.
This is certainly true. But some railroads, such as SP, carefully
painted the steel running board with body color after applying car
cement, and in some cases we know about, painted body color over the
car cement on roofs and ends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------




Re: LV hoppers in 1945

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.
=================================================
How does this one fit for description #7?
<http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm>http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm

I know it's not a prototype photo, but it's readily available.
LV did have several batches of channel-side hoppers from SSC and PSC, but those were gone after the early 1930s. The car in question is a conventional 7-rib hopper with wood siding and six Howe-truss diagonal braces. This should not be confused with LV's War Emergency design, which was a 5-rib car with four Pratt-truss diagonal braces (this one shows up in a Bethlehem ad in the 1943 CBC).

David Thompson


Re: LV hoppers in 1945

Eric Hansmann <ehansmann@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:

I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.

=================================================


How does this one fit for description #7?
http://www.westerfield.biz/7408.htm

I know it's not a prototype photo, but it's readily available.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and otherinteresting stuff

armprem
 

Could this have resulted from wartime neglect more than
anything?.Playing catch-up was a long drawn out process.A "War weary" fleet
was slowly being repaired or replaced.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering, the effects of location, and
otherinteresting stuff


Richard Hendrickson writes:

To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet
fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh
paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty
the lettering is scarcely visible.
I second that motion. I WILL say that Richard...I believe...is targeting
1947 as the end of his time period. Is that right? It WAS a VERY good yr,
of
course. The Yankees won the Series, after all. But, I do 1953/4...another
VERY good time...Yankees won in '53 anyhow. But by '53/'54 the RRs were
losing older cars rapidly and newer, cleaner ones were coming on line.
Still, photos of the time clearly show a rainbow effect with regard to PFE
trains. Every imaginable rendition of Daylight Orange shows up in reefer
trains of the time even though the original paint was the same [ within
limits of course ]. From dirty, hardly readable lettering to bright and
shiny. The same applies to box cars. Some of even the same type are both
clean and dirty. A look at the trains in the video Big Boy Collection and
Hooters Over The Blue Ridge shows these variations. Such movie sources as
these should not be overlooked. The one constant that does show up is that
Pennsy cars...other than very new ones...seem to be dirtier than others.
Sorry...it's just the way it was. <g>.

Mike Brock






Yahoo! Groups Links








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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/05


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Philip Lord <plord@...>
 

I am modeling branch line LVRR mixed trains of the 1944-45 years. In terms of weathering, were many newly painted cars being added to the fleet at the end of the war years ior would I be seeing mostly well-run-in cars from the early years?

Phil Lord
Averill Park NY

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff


Richard Hendrickson writes:

To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet
> fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh
> paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty
> the lettering is scarcely visible.

I second that motion. I WILL say that Richard...I believe...is targeting
1947 as the end of his time period. Is that right? It WAS a VERY good yr, of
course. The Yankees won the Series, after all. But, I do 1953/4...another
VERY good time...Yankees won in '53 anyhow. But by '53/'54 the RRs were
losing older cars rapidly and newer, cleaner ones were coming on line.
Still, photos of the time clearly show a rainbow effect with regard to PFE
trains. Every imaginable rendition of Daylight Orange shows up in reefer
trains of the time even though the original paint was the same [ within
limits of course ]. From dirty, hardly readable lettering to bright and
shiny. The same applies to box cars. Some of even the same type are both
clean and dirty. A look at the trains in the video Big Boy Collection and
Hooters Over The Blue Ridge shows these variations. Such movie sources as
these should not be overlooked. The one constant that does show up is that
Pennsy cars...other than very new ones...seem to be dirtier than others.
Sorry...it's just the way it was. <g>.

Mike Brock




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Re: Black car Cement

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Galvanized steel running boards
were often applied after the car cement coating and were not painted,
though of course they got a coating of car cement if the car was
repainted later.
This is certainly true. But some railroads, such as SP, carefully painted the steel running board with body color after applying car cement, and in some cases we know about, painted body color over the car cement on roofs and ends.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Paint removal

Schuyler Larrabee
 

You can sand it off, if it's not to obstructed by ribs'n'rivets, with 600 or greater grit wet'n'dry
sandpaper. I have done this with lettering, and also have fixed paint muck-ups on cars I've been
painting the same way. Removed 87x oversize fingerprints, no trouble.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Manfred Lorenz
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:21 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Paint removal

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Weiss" <wrw13@y...> wrote:

Manfred,

I have tried alcohol (denatured and 70% iso) and Polyscale paint
remover, neither of which worked. The PS did a good job of removing
the
paint, but the lettering is as good as new!

Bill
Bill,

That's too bad. IIRC some folks say 90% iso is the only way to go.
But I have no experience with this.

The late Hosam (http://www.hosam.com) has a website where he
had collected posts from other lists like the RPM. Here is
the page about paintstrippers. Might help to avoid at least
the paint coming off:
http://www.hosam.com/paint/stripc.html

I think the lettering is printed anyway. So a tool like the
MicroMark scraper (abrasive again) might help to get it off.
It is essentially a chisel that has triangular profile if
looked at from the side. A good tool to remove unwanted cast
on details and helps to avoid gouging. Perhaps worth a try.
You put the flat, ground off area on the surface and work it
like a plane.

http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?
MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82709

Manfred






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite
Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------
------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson writes:

To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet
fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh
paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty
the lettering is scarcely visible.
I second that motion. I WILL say that Richard...I believe...is targeting 1947 as the end of his time period. Is that right? It WAS a VERY good yr, of course. The Yankees won the Series, after all. But, I do 1953/4...another VERY good time...Yankees won in '53 anyhow. But by '53/'54 the RRs were losing older cars rapidly and newer, cleaner ones were coming on line. Still, photos of the time clearly show a rainbow effect with regard to PFE trains. Every imaginable rendition of Daylight Orange shows up in reefer trains of the time even though the original paint was the same [ within limits of course ]. From dirty, hardly readable lettering to bright and shiny. The same applies to box cars. Some of even the same type are both clean and dirty. A look at the trains in the video Big Boy Collection and Hooters Over The Blue Ridge shows these variations. Such movie sources as these should not be overlooked. The one constant that does show up is that Pennsy cars...other than very new ones...seem to be dirtier than others. Sorry...it's just the way it was. <g>.

Mike Brock


Useful photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

One of those wreck photos that let you see some interesting stuff can be seen here:

http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-10-20-05

SGL