Date   

Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson writes:

To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet
fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh
paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty
the lettering is scarcely visible.
I second that motion. I WILL say that Richard...I believe...is targeting 1947 as the end of his time period. Is that right? It WAS a VERY good yr, of course. The Yankees won the Series, after all. But, I do 1953/4...another VERY good time...Yankees won in '53 anyhow. But by '53/'54 the RRs were losing older cars rapidly and newer, cleaner ones were coming on line. Still, photos of the time clearly show a rainbow effect with regard to PFE trains. Every imaginable rendition of Daylight Orange shows up in reefer trains of the time even though the original paint was the same [ within limits of course ]. From dirty, hardly readable lettering to bright and shiny. The same applies to box cars. Some of even the same type are both clean and dirty. A look at the trains in the video Big Boy Collection and Hooters Over The Blue Ridge shows these variations. Such movie sources as these should not be overlooked. The one constant that does show up is that Pennsy cars...other than very new ones...seem to be dirtier than others. Sorry...it's just the way it was. <g>.

Mike Brock


Useful photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

One of those wreck photos that let you see some interesting stuff can be seen here:

http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-10-20-05

SGL


Re: Resin Trucks

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Oct 21, 2005, at 8:44 PM, up4024 wrote:

Should I be concerned about wear on the bearings of the resin
sideframes? Or will they provide good service. I am more concerned
about them wearing out than them rolling as well as standard trucks.
Steve:

Your best bet is to insert nylon journal bearings from Tichy. They will make things roll better and reduce wear.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Resin Trucks

up4024 <thekays100@...>
 

I recently purchased a Funaro & Camerlengo PRR F33 Well Hole Flatcar.
It includes resin trucks (no wheels), since, according to the
instructions, most commercial trucks are either too wide or too long.
F&C recommends Kadee, Reboxx or Branchline Wheelsets.

Should I be concerned about wear on the bearings of the resin
sideframes? Or will they provide good service. I am more concerned
about them wearing out than them rolling as well as standard trucks.

Steve Kay


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 21, 2005, at 2:44 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Richard;
Thanks for the important guidance. Shots of the PRR from earlier than
the mid-50's certainly support your conclusion. Many early color shots
of motive power include a few freight cars, and many are so dirty you
can't tell what color they were painted!

I would also agree with those that contend that freight car maintenance
went down severely in the 1950's, leading to rustier (or perhaps it is
more patently rusty?), and fewer mechanically functional freight cars.
Certainly true on the Pennsy and other lines in the northeast and elsewhere that were experiencing economic difficulties, but less true about railroads like the Santa Fe and UP that were still making a profit; their rolling stock continued to be well maintained.

What I do not agree with is the contention that motive power and freight
cars should not be weathered in a broad spectrum of conditions, but
through some rose-colored eyewear that promotes a shiny view of
railroads of the time, in which no rust ever formed, or the gloss ever
faded on a varnished engine or freight car. And, some believe that
view.
I was lectured by a gentleman recently that thought that my models were
"too weathered", despite the presence of several models that looked a
bit better than I thought they should have (my own fault). I think this
perspective on things is far more indicative of how many modelers
assemble their fleets, or at least it appears that way in the magazines!
Maybe this pristine view of railroad equipment makes them somehow feel
better than a dirty old box car might.....
No argument there, Elden. I've also had my freight car models criticized for being "too dirty" (typically by modelers who weren't around in the steam era to see at first hand just how dirty the prototype cars got). To be realistic, a typical freight car fleet fleet should represent every degree of dirt and weathering from fresh paint just out of the car shops on new or repainted cars to so dirty the lettering is scarcely visible.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Digest Number 2739

Frank Greene <fgreen01@...>
 

Oops...Southeastern Railway Museum, Duluth, GA.

Frank Greene
fgreen01@...

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:13:26 -0000
From: "al_brown03" <abrown@...>
Subject: Re: SAL A-1 class Auto Car
What & where is SERM?
-- thanks --
Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Richard;
Thanks for the important guidance. Shots of the PRR from earlier than
the mid-50's certainly support your conclusion. Many early color shots
of motive power include a few freight cars, and many are so dirty you
can't tell what color they were painted!

I would also agree with those that contend that freight car maintenance
went down severely in the 1950's, leading to rustier (or perhaps it is
more patently rusty?), and fewer mechanically functional freight cars.

What I do not agree with is the contention that motive power and freight
cars should not be weathered in a broad spectrum of conditions, but
through some rose-colored eyewear that promotes a shiny view of
railroads of the time, in which no rust ever formed, or the gloss ever
faded on a varnished engine or freight car. And, some believe that
view.

I was lectured by a gentleman recently that thought that my models were
"too weathered", despite the presence of several models that looked a
bit better than I thought they should have (my own fault). I think this
perspective on things is far more indicative of how many modelers
assemble their fleets, or at least it appears that way in the magazines!
Maybe this pristine view of railroad equipment makes them somehow feel
better than a dirty old box car might.....

Have a great weekend, folks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 11:50 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering, the effects of location, and other
interesting stuff

These are all interesting and useful observations, Elden, but both you
and Jeff have ignored one of the most important factors in aging and
weathering: the dates when the photos were taken. For those of us
who model the late forties/early fifties or earlier, the various color
guides published by Morning Sun and others are of very limited value
because the photos date almost entirely from the late fifties, sixties,
and later, after color film became readily available at reasonable
prices and railfans/photographers began using it extensively. There
are relatively few color images dating from the years when steam was
the dominant form of motive power on the American railroads, but those
we have illustrate again and again how much dirtier freight cars got,
and how much more rapidly, when they were constantly bombarded with the
soot, cinders, and condensation from steam locomotive exhausts. Many
of the weathering effects such as paint fading, chalking, and rust
which are readily apparent in photos from the diesel era were much less
obvious in earlier years because they were concealed beneath a more or
less heavy layer of grime. For example, I have a large number of
excellent early color slides shot by the late Jack Maxwell in Colorado
in 1941 in which almost all of the freight cars range from dirty to
filthy dirty except for a few which had obviously been recently
repainted. In some cases, it's possible to identify cars that had been
built new in the late 1930s and they were already very grimy after only
three or four years in service. So those who model the early fifties
or earlier need to view the photos in the color guide books with great
caution as guides to aging and weathering.

Richard Hendrickson





Yahoo! Groups Links


Fruit Growers Express banana logo reefers

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I've seen an interior photo of the then-new Baltimore and Ohio fruit
pier in Baltimore in 1958, showing a FHIX (Fruit Growers Express)
reefer with a banana logo.

No number seen, a laborer shouldering a stick of bananas is in the way.

The partial view of this car is in the Baltimore and Ohio yahoo group
photo section, reefer album.

I've heard B&O used 100 of these cars in service from Baltimore to
Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Toledo.

Can anybody tell me more about these cars??? Any other photos out
there??


Re: Accumate Proto:HO couplers

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

In regard to tight radius curvature such as found in industrial sidings along the Philadelphia waterfront and other tight locations, the PRR used couplers that had segmented shanks to allow the coupler head to pivot beyond the normal swing left and right. Many engines were equipped with coupler stops to avoid "jackknifing" when the swing became too extreme. This hinged extension allowed operation on curvature that would normally would thwart coupling to cars or pushing movements on these extreme radii.

The crews used to call these "swinging bullnose" couplers. Try to imagine the normal coupler shank as it emerged from the draft gear box, and instead of having the coupler head attached to it, attach the coupler head as a separate piece to the end of the first in a hinged joint which allowed the coupler head to move side to side an additional distance allowing the coupler to stay closer to track center line to compensate for the tight radius that were prevalent in these locations. This arrangement was similar to that which Dennis refers to as being used on the interurban railroads. The PRR used this arrangement on a good many locomotives used in these tight terminal areas such as A5 0-4-0, B6 0-6-0 classes and also on Baldwin and Alco 600HP-1000HP diesels that replaced the steam classes formerly employed in this service. Some of the early rubber-tired street switchers that the Penn employed in the Baltimore area also used this arrangement.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Dennis Storzek wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "David Ball" <davidball@x...> wrote:

Dennis (or anyone else),

Has it been determined the practical minimum radius the PROTO:HO couple can
be used for effective operation? I'm thinking literally how tight can the
radius be before it may cause problems for the coupler, not just that it
cope with typical tight radius like 18"

Cheers

David Ball
I was hoping that someone else would jump in here and save me the typing, maybe someone with first hand experience with our PROTO:HO couplers on tight curves, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

To be perfectly honest, we've never tried to determine what the practical minimum operating radius is. When you design a product to meet a certain criteria, say operation on 18" or smaller radius curves, you make whatever modifications are necessary to achieve that goal. If the coupler heads need to be overly large, the boxes overly wide, or the narrow boxes artificially flared wider at the opening, that's what you do, and accept those compromises as being necessitated by the original design criteria. The design criteria for the PROTO:HO was simply to put a scale size coupler head on a shank that would fit within the confines of a steam era center sill, and then make it compatible with the other magnetic couplers currently in use. How well it would work on train set radius was a secondary consideration, although the original layout drawings indicate that equal sized cars equipped with the PROTO:HO couplers should be able to negotiate a 15" radius curve. Notice I said equal sized cars. Problems arise when mixing equipment with different amounts of coupler overhand on these tight curves: freight and passenger cars, or freight cars and locomotives. Even a small 0-4-0 will have considerably more distance between the wheels and the coupler, and so this coupler will end up much farther from the track centerline on a sharp curve than the coupler on a freight car. Eighteen inch radius in HO scale is appx. 135' radius on the prototype, 15" radius is appx. 110'. When prototype curves are this tight they are no longer expressed in degrees, but in the actual radius in feet. Railroads build with radii in this range, such as rapid transit operations, typically use wide swinging radial couplers. The interurban railroads that had this sort of curvature used radial couplers on their locomotives so the coupler would follow the coupler on the cars. When these lines were dieselized, they typically needed to use small locomotives such as 44 tonners, which have short wheelbase trucks and minimum coupler overhang. I suspect the same applies to the PROTO:HO couplers.


Dennis Storzek




Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: tank car

Tim O'Connor
 

Doug, the Fallen Flags web site and the ABPR (A.B.P.R.) archives contain
tens of thousands of freight car images, but they are vast, and you'll have
to do your own browsing and searching... You can GOOGLE for links to the
above web sites. There are many other railfan archives (many hundreds)
and collections online, as well as many museum collections, a number of
which have been discussed here. (Learn to use the STMFC archives search
tool on the Yahoo web site.) I'm trying to help you help yourself, although
I am not as adamant as Richard that you have to invest in a library of books
first. But if you are at all serious as a modeler of tank cars, a couple of good
books are worth thousands of words and web links here... Kaminski's ACF
Tank Cars book, for example.

Tim O'Connor

Do you know of a place on the web with tank car pictures, Doug.


Re: Accumate Proto:HO couplers

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "David Ball" <davidball@x...> wrote:

Dennis (or anyone else),

Has it been determined the practical minimum radius the PROTO:HO couple can
be used for effective operation? I'm thinking literally how tight can the
radius be before it may cause problems for the coupler, not just that it
cope with typical tight radius like 18"

Cheers

David Ball
I was hoping that someone else would jump in here and save me the typing, maybe someone with first hand experience with our PROTO:HO couplers on tight curves, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

To be perfectly honest, we've never tried to determine what the practical minimum operating radius is. When you design a product to meet a certain criteria, say operation on 18" or smaller radius curves, you make whatever modifications are necessary to achieve that goal. If the coupler heads need to be overly large, the boxes overly wide, or the narrow boxes artificially flared wider at the opening, that's what you do, and accept those compromises as being necessitated by the original design criteria. The design criteria for the PROTO:HO was simply to put a scale size coupler head on a shank that would fit within the confines of a steam era center sill, and then make it compatible with the other magnetic couplers currently in use. How well it would work on train set radius was a secondary consideration, although the original layout drawings indicate that equal sized cars equipped with the PROTO:HO couplers should be able to negotiate a 15" radius curve. Notice I said equal sized cars. Problems arise when mixing equipment with different amounts of coupler overhand on these tight curves: freight and passenger cars, or freight cars and locomotives. Even a small 0-4-0 will have considerably more distance between the wheels and the coupler, and so this coupler will end up much farther from the track centerline on a sharp curve than the coupler on a freight car. Eighteen inch radius in HO scale is appx. 135' radius on the prototype, 15" radius is appx. 110'. When prototype curves are this tight they are no longer expressed in degrees, but in the actual radius in feet. Railroads build with radii in this range, such as rapid transit operations, typically use wide swinging radial couplers. The interurban railroads that had this sort of curvature used radial couplers on their locomotives so the coupler would follow the coupler on the cars. When these lines were dieselized, they typically needed to use small locomotives such as 44 tonners, which have short wheelbase trucks and minimum coupler overhang. I suspect the same applies to the PROTO:HO couplers.


Dennis Storzek


Re: Black car Cement

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 21, 2005, at 9:34 AM, jthirtysix wrote:

Some railroads used a product called Black Car Cement or roof cement
on the ends and roofs and perhaps underframes of freight cars for a
time in at least the 40's and 50's. Was this used on running boards,
grab irons, and brake wheels or were they painted the same color as
the car? If used on the underframe were the wooden parts also coverd?
James Hickey
Black car cement was a thick petroleum-based liquid which provided more protection against corrosion than ordinary paint. Typically, it was sprayed on, and, when used on steel roofs, some railroads (e.g. the Santa Fe) sprinkled coarse granules on it when wet to provide more secure footing for trainmen who stepped off the running boards. In many cases (again, e.g. the Santa Fe), wood running boards were not coated but were painted in body color. Galvanized steel running boards were often applied after the car cement coating and were not painted, though of course they got a coating of car cement if the car was repainted later. Brake equipment as well was usually mounted after the car cement had been sprayed on, though end grab irons probably were already in place when the car cement was applied. When sprayed on underframes, the underside of wood flooring as well as the steel parts of the underframe were coated indiscriminately. But car cement wasn't applied to trucks and couplers. since it would have hindered visual inspection to find cracks and other defects.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: tank car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 21, 2005, at 10:22 AM, dphobbyman wrote:

Thanks Ed for the book reference. Do you know of a place on the web
with tank car pictures, Doug.
Ed may know of a website that contains a comprehensive selection of
tank car photos, but I don't. In any case, I sense that it's time for
one of my periodic reminders to STMFC list subscribers that, useful
though the internet is, there is a vast amount of published material on
steam era freight cars in books and periodicals that isn't available on
the net – and won't be at any time in the forseeable future. And
frankly, those of us who write and publish that material are entitled
to become a bit impatient with inquiries which imply that the
questioner can't be bothered to track it down if doing so involves more
than a few keystrokes and mouse clicks. Those who are serious about
prototype research need to develop their own libraries of basic
research sources – I'd put a complete set of the Railway Prototype
Cyclopedias right at the top of the acquisition list – and learn how to
access other sources that are in libraries and museum collections (most
local libraries can get almost anything in print via interlibrary
loan). Those of us who have those resources and the skills to use them
are happy to help answer specific research questions within reason, but we're not in a position to do all your research for you; we have our
own work to do.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Richard Hendrickson
 

These are all interesting and useful observations, Elden, but both you and Jeff have ignored one of the most important factors in aging and weathering: the dates when the photos were taken. For those of us who model the late forties/early fifties or earlier, the various color guides published by Morning Sun and others are of very limited value because the photos date almost entirely from the late fifties, sixties, and later, after color film became readily available at reasonable prices and railfans/photographers began using it extensively. There are relatively few color images dating from the years when steam was the dominant form of motive power on the American railroads, but those we have illustrate again and again how much dirtier freight cars got, and how much more rapidly, when they were constantly bombarded with the soot, cinders, and condensation from steam locomotive exhausts. Many of the weathering effects such as paint fading, chalking, and rust which are readily apparent in photos from the diesel era were much less obvious in earlier years because they were concealed beneath a more or less heavy layer of grime. For example, I have a large number of excellent early color slides shot by the late Jack Maxwell in Colorado in 1941 in which almost all of the freight cars range from dirty to filthy dirty except for a few which had obviously been recently repainted. In some cases, it's possible to identify cars that had been built new in the late 1930s and they were already very grimy after only three or four years in service. So those who model the early fifties or earlier need to view the photos in the color guide books with great caution as guides to aging and weathering.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Black car Cement

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

James;
I can only speak for the PRR, and observations of lots of freight cars,
but the PRR did not apply it to running boards, grabs, or brake wheels,
which were painted to same color as the rest of the car, subject to
certain guidelines. They also applied it to the tops of
underframe-applied appliances, like the reservoir and cylinder, and also
between mating surfaces in assembly of freight cars, for roofs, floors,
etc. No, the wooden parts were not coated with car cement, but seams
between them were filled with it during assembly.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
jthirtysix
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Black car Cement

Some railroads used a product called Black Car Cement or roof cement
on the ends and roofs and perhaps underframes of freight cars for a
time in at least the 40's and 50's. Was this used on running boards,
grab irons, and brake wheels or were they painted the same color as
the car? If used on the underframe were the wooden parts also coverd?
James Hickey







Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Elden Gatwood asked:
---------

P.S. An X43B in the string exhibits some of the most extreme weathering
of any car in the Russ Porter photo. There looks to be literally NO
original paint on this car (the basic stenciling has been re-done on a
painted panel), which appears to be in original "paint", and which was
built a decade earlier. Why do YOU think this car escaped re-painting?

---------
Because there wasn't enough steel left to put paint on?? ;-)

regards,
Andy Miller


Re: tank car

dphobbyman <dopear9@...>
 

Thanks Ed for the book reference. Do you know of a place on the web with tank car pictures, Doug.


Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Volume 10 has an article about ICC-103

uninsulated multiple compartment Type 27 tank cars built by AC&F.
Perhaps this will provide you what you are looking for.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Weathering, the effects of location, and other interesting stuff

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Folks;
I have done a lot of thinking about Jeff Aley's premise, and thought I
should give you a bit of photographic evidence that I think supports
what Jeff said (see below).

From Jeff:
"Do these comments about regional weathering apply only to certain types
of
cars (e.g. hoppers)?

I would expect that free-roaming cars (box cars) would not show regional
weathering because they roamed "freely" across the U.S.A. I believe CIL
1
(a Monon box car) spent a LONG time traveling around the country before
coming back to the rust-belt industrial areas of Indiana.

So even if it's a PRR X29, it may have spent just as much time in the
desert southwest as a car from the FEC, MEC, or SP.

Do the photos and consist data back up my theory, or am I full of it?

Regards, -Jeff"


One of the pieces of evidence is a photo taken by Russ Porter, on the
title page of Ian Fischer's "PRR Color Guide...Vol. 2" that shows
Pitcairn Yard in July 1961. The photo shows a bunch of cars in the
yard, all PRR, in storage, or as a collection of bad order cars. I
actually remember this area, and that feature of the yard QUITE well, as
I spent a lot of time clambering all over cars like this (and avoiding
the yard cops).

The strings of cars illustrate that cars painted in earlier schemes can
be found in as good or better condition than those painted in a later
scheme (and thus, painted at a later date). No, I cannot make any
implications about what service they were in, or what part of the
country they spent most of their time, but they do exhibit FAR different
weathering/condition amongst a single class of cars (X29's) to be
explained by factors such as the date of re-painting, or other "starting
point" factors (like paint quality, who painted it, etc.). It is also
clear that the group of X29's in the "Circle Keystone" scheme exhibit an
incredible array of weathering effects, that range from very small, or
no visible patches of rust, to rust wholly covering the entire body, to
some that exhibit most of the rust on the roof and upper battens, and
everything in between. It is very gratifying to see this sort of photo.

This type of photo "levels the playing field" for questions in regards
to how you can factor out the effects of photo dates, locational
differences, etc. This is one class of cars, on the same date, and in
the same location.

I also looked at hundreds of freight cars photos to see if I could come
to any interesting observations, and one of the most fun was looking,
again in the PRR Color Guides, at the group of X29 rebuilds and X31's,
to see what range of weathering was exhibited. It is absolutely
incredible what a variety of effects are found on this small group of
boxcars. Again, they range from simple dirt deposition and rust
formation, particularly on seams and around rivets, to almost complete
rust coverage of the entire body. Fascinating.

And, other than builder's photos, VERY few clean-looking cars. Most,
for whatever railroad and era, in all my color guides, exhibit
considerable weathering effects of one kind or another. Yes, you
southwest modelers SHOULD have a dominance of bleached out,
dusty-looking cars; and, we modelers of the NE scene should have lots of
rusty cars, but each of us should be exhibiting cars that represent the
broadest range of effects, as those of you that have demonstrated the
wide-ranging behaviour of box cars fleets (and etc) have so correctly
pointed out.

I will now get to work with a view to more variety....and perhaps a
better "eye"...

Thanks, Jeff, and all,

Elden Gatwood

P.S. An X43B in the string exhibits some of the most extreme weathering
of any car in the Russ Porter photo. There looks to be literally NO
original paint on this car (the basic stenciling has been re-done on a
painted panel), which appears to be in original "paint", and which was
built a decade earlier. Why do YOU think this car escaped re-painting?


Re: LV hoppers in 1945

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:
I wouldn't call it a "decent" picture, due to the half-tone
grain, however there's a shot of LV 15041, still as a composite
car
no date on the photo, however), on page 51 of the book, "Steam
Locomotive Coaling Stations and Diesel Locomotive Fueling
Facilities", by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. The book is published by TLC
Publishing, Inc.
This photo shows a two bay composite car with six diagonals in a
Howe
Truss pattern. The diagonal closest to each end extend
below the slope sheet. There is no "offset", as in the Athearn or
P2k composite hoppers.
Phil-
I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.

Ed


Re: LV hoppers in 1945

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:
I wouldn't call it a "decent" picture, due to the half-tone
grain, however there's a shot of LV 15041, still as a composite car
no date on the photo, however), on page 51 of the book, "Steam
Locomotive Coaling Stations and Diesel Locomotive Fueling
Facilities", by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. The book is published by TLC
Publishing, Inc.
This photo shows a two bay composite car with six diagonals in a Howe
Truss pattern. The diagonal closest to each end extend
below the slope sheet. There is no "offset", as in the Athearn or
P2k composite hoppers.

Phil-
I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the end sheet.

Ed