Date   

Re: washing PFE reefers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"...those numbers are interesting, because it sounds like PFE was
washing cars maybe once or twice between repaintings. That doesn't
sound very extravagant to me, but maybe Tony can explain if there
was a practical purpose for occasional washings of wood cars or if
it was just for show? (By the late 40's PFE's fleet of steel cars
had reached over 14,000 cars.)"

More on the subject of car washing from Thompson/Church/Jones'
Pacific Fruit Express:

p 100
March 1923-December 1929: 12,000 cars per year (average), ~1/3 of
fleet
1929: 21,304 cars washed (over 1/2 of fleet)
"average PFE car in the 1920s was washed one to three times between
repaintings."

p 117
"Except for Aug.-Dec., 1931, when washing was suspended due to the
Depression, about 15,000 cars were washed annually from 1930 to
1936."

p 143
"During World War II, car washing was considerably reduced, as were
most non-essential operations. The years 1937-42 saw an average of
nearly 19,000 cars washed annually, but in 1943-45, only about 7000
cars were washed each year."


Ben Hom


NMRA calendar

eabracher@...
 

Anyone notice the odd loco in the small photo on the month of April of the
NMRA calendar?

A kit bash of a diesel and steam loco with a colorful paint job. wonder
what prototype it was?

eric


Re: Dominion's Fowler patent box cars

William and Anna-Marie Dewar <wmdewar@...>
 

The Lifelike cars are correct for CPR dominion cars and is not a combined car.
The Lifelike car was lettered a bunch of road names, but it is correct for the CPR.
There are many variations of the Dominion/Fowler car, just read through Al Westerfield's information and instruction sheets.
The Lifelike car is one of the many series of cars. After making 30 Westerfield fowler cars, I can say that they are great kits and make quite a few different series of cars.
Bill Dewar
Brampton Ontario


Westerfield .Life Like of Canada tried to combine CPR and CN
versions.The trucks are great.Westerfield was more accurate and had several
different versions for both CN and CPR.IMHO.Armand Premo
>>

>>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Replacement of National Type B trucks

rrhistorian
 

This link (my website) has information about two Chicago & Illinois
Midland two-bay, offset hoppers that were originally built with
National Type-B trucks, but which lost them at some point. They
presently have trucks with EJ&E and NYC casting marks.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tcornill/HRE_available_equipment_3.html

Also, when I posted a question I asked about National Type-B trucks
here, and learned that the Portola Railroad Musuem (now Western
Pacific Railroad Museum) had a set under a tank car that they were
planning to scrap. Does anybody know the identity of that car and
what happened to the trucks?

Tom Cornillie


Modification to an ART 1936-built steel reefer

Scott Pitzer
 

Gene Green's Refrigerator Car Color Guide shows ART 31157 with a horizontal reinforcement something like 10" wide, along the first panel seam from the right. The photo is from 1969, so the mod may not have been made in our era here. I wonder why the seam wasn't repaired the same as it was made in the first place. (Hmmm... maybe so it wouldn't fail again?) But I don't recall seeing anything like that before.

Scott Pitzer


Re: What era does the North Shore Club's Chesapeake & Western replicate? (Was prototypical freight car mix.)

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Actually the latter is the Chesapeake & Lake Erie. The C&LE ran from Chicago, thru Toledo (with a connection to Detroit) and Cleveland, then turned southeast. It ran south of Pittsburgh (with a branch to the city) and on to Elkton, VA, thru Fredericksburg and on to "Hampton News" VA on Chesapeake Bay. The C&LE also purchased the RF&P from Fredericksburg to Richmond. The Chesapeake and Hudson (C&H) ran from Fredericksburg to Mechanicville, NY, bypassing the major downtown areas of the east coast cities and their physical restrictions. However, it had easy access to them all and siphoned a lot of traffic from the corridor. The Cumberland Western ran east from Kansas City to the south of St Louis (again, another easy connection) throu Louisville, and Lexington, KY, Huntington, and Charleston, WV, and ran out of construction money at Elkton, terminating at the C&LE. They remained individual railroads into the mid 50s; began consolidating operations and administrative functions, and by the mid 70s, became the Chesapeake System. At the moment, ops represent sometime in the mid-late 50s, as Malcolm stated.
Regards,
Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin
To: Tim Gilbert ; Tim O'Connor ; Schuyler G Larrabee ; Norman+Laraine Larkin
Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC]What era does the North Shore Club's Chesapeake & Western replicate? (Was prototypical freight car mix.)


> What era does the Chesapeake & Western System replicate?

I'll give you an answer from the perspective of a relative newcomer - last summer. I perceive 1955 to be the target year. We run passenger trains typical of the 50's with appropriate car lines and switching powered by E-7/8's, PA's and GP-7's. Also numerous milk, express reefer and mail car routes. And freight is handled appropriate even to the daily switching of a major LCL terminal and handling automobiles in box cars and no autoracks.

Most equipment is era appropriate except for the fleets of express box cars and RPM's without roof walks. We're looking at using steam instead of SD-40's on freight trains.

I'd say it's sort of a tacit agreement to accept some era anomalies rather than do without entirely or buy more equipment quickly.

Norm, Tim and Schuyler know the Chesapeake System history a lot better than I do, but that's how it looks to me.

BTW, the CS is comprised of three railroads, Cumberland Western, Chesapeake & Hudson and Cleveland & Lake Erie.

> From Malcolm's commentary, operations appear to be more appropriate for the 1960's rather than the late 1940's/early 1950's.

What is it that makes you think 1960's ?


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: more on PFE R-40-25 ends

Scott Pitzer
 

I just bought Gene Green's Refrigerator Car Color Guide. The same concept of this end carries over to a 1957 PC&F car, ART 37073. The ribs are not rolling pin anymore, but the top one is more or less flat across the bottom.

I'll look for more examples as I go, but as always I'll S-T-R-E-T-C-H the enjoyment of this book over at least a week and a half!

Scott Pitzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
Sent: Apr 5, 2006 10:01 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] more on PFE R-40-25 ends


Jim's message about the 1953 CBC got me looking, and sure
enough that same end can be found on a BAR R-40-26 clone
built by Mt Vernon (Pressed Steel), and a WFEX mechanical
reefer, and an MNX (National Car) plug door car built by
FGE. So it looks like the R-40-25 end had several customers
besides PFE and NP. Any more?

Tim O'Connor




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Re: What era does the North Shore Club replicate?

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, the club is based loosely on the operations of a combination
of the C&O and B&O railroads -- running west from tidewater to the
western gateways of Kansas City and Chicago, but also hitting the
Great Lakes and tapping into the steel mills of eastern Ohio and
western Pennsylvania. We also have an imaginary north-south
line from Maybrook NY through NJ-DE-MD-VA to Richmond, with
the junction point at the metropolis of Fredericksburg VA.

The 3 affiliated, but independent railroads, are the Chesapeake
& Lake Erie, Cumberland Western, and Chesapeake & Hudson.
The major freight yard is at Elkton WV (based on Cumberland MD)
where the CW heads west to KC, and the C&LE heads to Chicago.

About 1/2 of traffic is coal, moving both eastwards and westwards.
Destinations include power plants, steel mills, ports, retail coal and
locomotive fuel.

We made a decision a few years ago to try to narrow our focus to
the mid 1950's because we were afflicted with a mishmosh of ops
and rolling stock from the 1940's to the 1980's. We've invested in
a significant number of steam locomotives, and have acquired a
large number of CW and C&LE lettered coal hoppers (200+). The
op session WAS designed to represent traffic patterns of the 1950's
but I'm not sure what may have changed in the last few months.

We (I am on the hook for it) are building an LCL facility at Elkton
that will function as an LCL hub, with a daily inflow/outflow of 15
or more cars. Or 30 if we switch it twice daily, which I think we
should do. As you have pointed out many times, LCL was a huge
percentage of box car traffic until it fell off sharply in the 1950's.

Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>
I have a question for Schuyler Larrabee, Norm Larkin, Malcolm Laughlin,
Tim O'Connor and any other North Shore Club member on the STMFC. What
era does the Chesapeake & Western System replicate? From Malcolm's
commentary, operations appear to be more appropriate for the 1960's
rather than the late 1940's/early 1950's.
Tim Gilbert


Re: prototypical freight car mix.

Tim O'Connor
 

From: Malcolm Laughlin

The biggest flow from KY would be from GE�s Appliance Park
in Louisville ... [ snip ] ...
Mike you have to forgive Malcolm he's the new guy at the club. If
he's ever been to Huntington WV (which is represented by our
staging yard west of Charleston WV) he should know that there
are traffic flows of coal, LCL, chemicals, lumber, steel and autos in
eastern Kentucky. The fictional Cumberland Western railroad receives
a significant amount of coal from Kentucky connections, and even
runs a daily freight dedicated to this traffic. (Until recently most
of the blocks in that train consisted of Santa Fe hoppers!) He is
also evidently not aware of the close association of the L&N and
the NC&StL. The CW runs from Huntington towards Lexington
and Louisville, crossing the Ohio between Louisville and Paducah
and running west, crossing the Mississippi south of St Louis. It
interchanges at multiple locations with SOU, L&N, IC.

So yes there should be L&N and NC&StL hoppers on the layout, as
well as ordinary box cars. There is somewhere in the neighborhood
of 500 to 600 freight cars on the layout currently so it seems quite
reasonable that some of them should belong to those roads. Other
railroads severely under-represented include NYC, PRR, ACL, SAL,
IC, SOU, C&O, and B&O. A ridiculously over-represented road is
the D&H.

Tim O'


Re: What era does the North Shore Club's Chesapeake & Western replicate? (Was prototypical freight car mix.)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

I have a question for Schuyler Larrabee, Norm Larkin, Malcolm Laughlin, Tim O'Connor and any other North Shore Club member on the STMFC. What era does the Chesapeake & Western System replicate? From Malcolm's commentary, operations appear to be more appropriate for the 1960's rather than the late 1940's/early 1950's.

Tim Gilbert


Re: prototypical freight car mix.

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin writes:


Tim O'Connor wrote:

In 10+ years at my train club I have yet to spot an L&N or
NC&StL freight car of any kind. And we model a railroad line that
traverses Kentucky east to west!

Mike Brock wrote
Hmmmm. I hate to say this but that doesn't speak real positively
for your club. Sorta like modeling Tehachapi with no Santa Fe or SP cars
during the steam era.
--------------------------------------

"This shows a big misunderstanding on the part of Mike and Tim. The fact that a railroad connect with another doesn't necessarily mean that each will have a significant number of the other's cars at points hundreds of miles from their interchange."

And, the misunderstanding is? I have written several times that the evidence in my Frt Conductor book that WP...with rather close proximity to UP in UT...doesn't have a significant number of cars on the UP between Rawlins and Laramie in '49. It does, however, HAVE such cars and Tim's point was not that the club failed to have a SIGNIFICANT number of L&N frt cars but, rather, it didn't have any L&N cars at all...during a period of 10 yrs.

"The Tehachapi analogy is quite irrelevant. There you are tallking about cars operating in their home road's trains."

You might note that I didn't say "like" modeling Tehachapi, I said..."sorta like".

"The Chesapeake system runs from eastern Virginia on two main routes, one to Chicago and one to Kansas City. We model the segment between Charleston, WV and Fredericksburg, VA."

"This is not an area likely to exchange much traffic with points on the L&N."

Well, of course, there might be SOME particular association due to the fact that the railroads had connectivity...assuming that they did...but, then, UP didn't have connectivity with Sou, L&N, Pennsy or NYC and the number of those road's box cars on the UP in Wyoming fairly well matches that predicted by the Nelson/Gilbert theory. So, it really has little to do with traffic flow or interchange points.

A rather significant factor in me response, however, has to do with Tim's comment: "And we model a railroad line that
traverses Kentucky east to west!"

From what you say, the fictitious RR not only does not traverse Kentucky from east to west [ suggesting most strongly that it travels from the eastern part of the state to the western part ], but that it doesn't enter Kentucky at all. This is one of the problems with discussing fictitious RRs...and the STMFC is not about fictitious RRs...those who haven't seen them...like me...only know what we're told.

Mike Brock


prototypical freight car mix.

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

On Apr 3, 10:41pm, Tim O'Connor wrote:
In 10+ years at my train club I have yet to spot an L&N or
NC&StL freight car of any kind. And we model a railroad line that
traverses Kentucky east to west!

Mike Brock wrote
Hmmmm. I hate to say this but that doesn't speak real positively
for your club. Sorta like modeling Tehachapi with no Santa Fe or SP cars
during the steam era.
--------------------------------------

This shows a big misunderstanding on the part of Mike and Tim. The fact that a railroad connect with another doesn't necessarily mean that each will have a significant number of the other's cars at points hundreds of miles from their interchange.

The Tehachapi analogy is quite irrelevant. There you are tallking about cars operating in their home road's trains.

The Chesapeake system runs from eastern Virginia on two main routes, one to Chicago and one to Kansas City. We model the segment between Charleston, WV and Fredericksburg, VA. This is not an area likely to exchange much traffic with points on the L&N. The biggest flow from KY would be from GE’s Appliance Park in Louisville, but that traffic moves in a pool of assigned cars from all railroads. On the east end of the railroad, half of the traffic is from the Chicago Line. It would be reasonable to expect the occasional L&N car but not more than any of the many other connecting railroads.

As for NC&StL, if you look at a map you will see that a line between Charleston and Fredericksburg is not on a direct route between any point on the NC&StL and anywhere else other than local points in WV.
========================================


You hear that Andy, Schuyler and Malcolm? Mike is dissin' the North
Shore!> ( I agree with you Mike but then I'm kinda the black sheep of the
club... )

P.S. I have about a dozen L&N and NC&StL cars myself but I'm afraid
to put anything on the layout for fear of the TONGS... X;{
-------------------------------------------------------

Instead of keeping them and criticizing the club, why don't you put a few out on the layout, L&N that is, NSCL doesn't matter. I'm fixing mine to contribute to our STMFC fleet and so are other members.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Upcoming event in Morgantown, W. Va.

Eric Hansmann <ehansmann@...>
 

Greetings List Members,

I am involved in an upcoming convention in Morgantown, W. Va., which may be
of interest to many on this list. The event is the Mountain State Express, a
regional NMRA convention April 27 - 30, 2006. We have several rail-oriented
tours and some solid presentations, many of which feature aspects of West
Virginia railroading. Details are on the website, including registration
forms. Here's the link:
http://www.mvrrc.org/msx2006/index.htm

Feel free to send any questions to me off-line.

Eric



Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Dominion's Fowler patent box cars

armprem
 

Westerfield .Life Like of Canada tried to combine CPR and CN versions.The trucks are great.Westerfield was more accurate and had several different versions for both CN and CPR.IMHO.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Bourbina" <bbbourb@cox.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Dominion's Fowler patent box cars


Which ones, the Westerfield or the LL Canada?

Brad Bourbina

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
A. Premo
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:14 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Dominion's Fowler patent box cars


Yes,It was released in Canada as Life Like Canada.Questions have been
raised about this cars' accuracy.Having built several Westerfield kits of
this car I personally feel these cars better represent the prototype.Armand
Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared Harper" <harper-brown@juno.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Dominion's Fowler patent box cars


I've been reading with interest Ted's latest contribution to
his "Essential Freight Cars" series on Dominion's Fowler patent, single-
sheathed box cars. Do I remember correctly? Was there a plastic kit
for this car?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA






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Re: Replacement of National Type B trucks

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:


Chris

I am looking at a 1969 Jim Sands scan of GN 15400, a 40ft double door
box car, with a load limit of 129200 and a light weight of 47800 - for
a total rating of 177000, the nominal standard for a "50 ton" car since
the 1960's. The next higher rating is 220000; it seems unlikely many
postwar AAR 40ft cars received that rating, ever.

I meant to add that GN 15400 has National Type-B trucks.

Tim O'
According to the January 1967 ORER, the nominal capacity listed for GN's #15000-15549 series was 100,000 pounds denoting its trucks had 5 1/2" x 10" axle journals. Apparently, #15400 had been reweighed at a certain date after 12/31/1962, and the stencil, at least for the LT WT and LOAD LIMIT, was updated to the revised GRL allowed - from 169,000 to 177,000 pounds.

Whether the CAPY had been revised is irrelevant since the only requirement was that the nominal capacity had to be equal or less than the Load Limit - 50, 55, 60 ton boxcars all had the same GRL's. Before 1962, the GRL was 169,000 pounds; after 1962, it became 177,000 pounds, but there was a transition period before these changes could be stenciled onto every car having trucks with 5 1/2" x 10" axle journals.

From what I understand, the only thing stop a post War AAR car from being rated as having a GRL of 220,000 pounds was the size of the axle journal of the truck. If the "original" 5 1/2" x 10" trucks had been swapped out for ones with 6" x 11" journals, then the car could be stenciled so that the sum of the LD LMT plus LT WT equaled 220,000. (On 12/31/1962, the GRL of a car with 6" x 11" journals had been increased from 210 to 220 thousand pounds - and I am far more comfortable in discussing pre-1962 GRL's without the complications of the transition period effecting the changes allowed afterwards which, technically, are outside the STMFC's domain, but inside the BBFCL's domain.)

Tim Gilbert




Mark: I'm curious to see what comes up in response to this question.
But I can offer that the NP Ry had hundreds, possibly thousands of
boxcars and hoppers riding on National B-1 trucks right through the
1960s. Steel AAR-oid boxcars the NP rebuilt in the 1950s-1960s
retained (or possibly acquired) these trucks. However, it appears cars running on National B-1s were not uprated
from 50 to 55 ton capacity the way many cars with ASF A-3 Ride Control
and certain other nominal 50-ton trucks were in the later 1960s (at
least on the NP).

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I was looking at pictures of GTW and CB&Q boxcars that were delivered
with National Type B trucks. In these pictures, dated 1964, the Type
B trucks had been replaced with more conventional trucks. Was there a
flaw in the Type B trucks that caused them to be replaced? Would
these trucks still have been found under cars in the late 1950s?

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Re: more on PFE R-40-25 ends

Scott Pitzer
 

Did we ever decide whether the use of that flat-bottomed rib reduces the overall height of the end? I used to "see" that it made that rib closer to the one below, but now I think I "see" there would be enough room for the lower bulb shape to fit.
Scott Pitzer

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
Sent: Apr 5, 2006 10:01 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] more on PFE R-40-25 ends


Jim's message about the 1953 CBC got me looking, and sure
enough that same end can be found on a BAR R-40-26 clone
built by Mt Vernon (Pressed Steel), and a WFEX mechanical
reefer, and an MNX (National Car) plug door car built by
FGE. So it looks like the R-40-25 end had several customers
besides PFE and NP. Any more?

Tim O'Connor




Yahoo! Groups Links






more on PFE R-40-25 ends

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim's message about the 1953 CBC got me looking, and sure
enough that same end can be found on a BAR R-40-26 clone
built by Mt Vernon (Pressed Steel), and a WFEX mechanical
reefer, and an MNX (National Car) plug door car built by
FGE. So it looks like the R-40-25 end had several customers
besides PFE and NP. Any more?

Tim O'Connor


Duh!

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

It seems that my eyes skipped over the paragraph in Ted's RMC article
about Dominion cars having to do with the various model manufacturers
turning out these cars. Sorry about that.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Photo of R-40-25 (was another PFE Reefer)

Scott Pitzer
 

I would think it means that the car was dedicated to storing the car
heaters which were used to keep produce or liquid products from
freezing when shipped through cold regions.
Scott Pitzer


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "David Smith" <dsmith@...> wrote:

What is the significance of the white stencil on the left side,
which
appears to say "PFE Heated (heater?) Storage"?



http://www.geocities.com/oldlahistory/pfe4537.jpg


Re: branded quality drill bits

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

Ned - if you have a Sherline mill, an Albrecht
chuck would probably work very nice on it too.
Yes I have a Sherline. I have considered an Albrecht chuck. I regret not buying one of the brazelton drill pressses with an Albrecht chuck when they were available.

Thank you for your comments,

Ned Carey

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