Date   

Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Er, Charlie,

I believe the original post inquired about STOCK cars owned by the St. Paul B&T, not reefers...

Since it served the stockyards, is it possible it could have owned stock cars not used in interchange service but only to transfer cattle from one part of the stockyard to another? Those would not have to be listed in the ORER.

Of course, if that's the case, you wouldn't need any unless you're modeling the SPB&T itself. ;<)

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast


----------
Charlie Vlk wrote:

If Swift Refrigerator Lines was formed prior to the CGW takeover, wouldn't
it be logical to surmise that the cars were owned by Swift, conveniently
listed as StPB&T cars until the SRL was formed, then transfered to the new
entity with no real change in ownership, leaving the StPB&T with no reefers
(which a switching railroad wouldn't need except maybe for company ice)???


Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rich Beau asked:
"There's no trucks and no couplers with this F&C kit. A long
informative message on this list by Elden Gatwood suggests 70-ton
trucks. The F&C website says this particular flatcar should have
some Bettendorf style trucks on it. While the instructions
specifically say Kadee Pennsy Class 2D-F8 50 ton trucks. I have some
Accurail Bettendorf trucks as recommended for general use by Ted in
one of his RMC articles. Are these appropriate?"

First, let's clear up some confusion:

- Elden's earlier post recommending 70-ton trucks DOES NOT APPLY to
the Class FM flat car, but to the later 70-ton Class F30A flat car.

- Do not take any information in Funaro's literature without
verifying it from an independent source.

- What era are you modeling? If it's the transition era, the Kadee,
Bowser, or Red Caboose 2D-F8 are appropriate. Even though it's a
sprung truck with the attendant appearance problem caused by the
gaping hole at the spring pack, I recommend this truck because it
will help weigh the car. (Another thing to be aware of is that the
bolster heights of the Bowser and Red Caboose trucks are different,
which will affect your coupler mounting and/or selection). If
you're modeling 1902-1930s, many cars had arch bar trucks. (These
cars had a very long service life, with numbers dropping
significantly by the mid-1950s.)

As Pieter Roos posted earlier, Elden's Class FM modeling article is
still online at
<http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler_PDFs/TKM%
20No.%2025%2008-05%20PDF.pdf>


"Would you use Proto:87 wheels? Reboxx wheel sets look very good and
they are located in the town next door."

How's your trackwork? Check the archives for the discussions
regarding P:87 and semi-scale (0.088) wheelset performance, as P:87
wheelsets and legacy trackwork have some interface issues. I
personally prefer semi-scale wheelsets.


"What about the couplers? Accumate Proto HO? Or those new fangled
Sergent Engineering couplers? Or ye olde Kadee (#58s)?"

My preference? The Accumate Proto HO or the Kadee #78. I find the
legacy draft gear box of the #58 unacceptable, and I want to able to
operate my better-quality cars with my legacy rolling stock.


Armand Premo responded:
"Major problem, in my mind, is the lack of weight of the completed
car. No place to hide the weight."

I totally disagree. The fishbelly side sill hides a good deal of
underframe detail. Turn the car over onto its deck. Ensure there
are no gaps between the sides and deck where liquid can escape. Get
some #9 lead shot (available in small quantities from A-Line or in
bulk from McMaster-Carr) and pour it into the cavities of the
underframe. Do not pour so much that it would be visible when the
car is viewed from the side when it's on the tracks. Fix the shot in
place by flooding in thin CA (the cheaper, the better).


Ben Hom


Re: wood vs. styrene (was a very short intro)

Roger Robar <rrobar@...>
 

Tony,

About 15-yrs. ago I with the help of others re-decked and old flat car with
3" x 8" rough sawn oak planking. Today that flat car is in use as a track
service car on a busy tourist railroad. Yes there are a few planks that have
a slight twist to them but nothing to ever interfere in its use. BTW, I
model the B&M and live in northern NH.

Roger Robar



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:11 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: wood vs. styrene (was a very short intro)



Roger Robar wrote:
I'm quit sure the hardwood planks when new
were very green when applied/bolted to the flat car decks; within a
few days
or so they would begin to dry out thus causing gaps between the planks
for
drainage. Besides, it would be a rare occasion that a flat car would
ever be
setting on a track perfectly level with or without a load.
Not sure what railroad you follow, Roger, but the two for which
I've seen flat car specifications list fully kiln dried lumber for
decking. Green hardwood will twist, warp and shrink in various ways,
which does NOT make a very good deck. Some of us have witnessed this in
a project flat car built at a Railfair a few years ago. Today you could
hardly walk on that deck unaided.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net




SPONSORED LINKS


Train
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Train+travel&w1=Train+travel&w2=Freight
+car&w3=Train+travel+in+italy&w4=North+american&c=4&s=82&.sig=GsQ0G1H3Uo_vjW
izsrnZLw> travel

Freight
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Freight+car&w1=Train+travel&w2=Freight+
car&w3=Train+travel+in+italy&w4=North+american&c=4&s=82&.sig=IdirRDUWZtQVLlL
P1H9GWQ> car

Train
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Train+travel+in+italy&w1=Train+travel&w
2=Freight+car&w3=Train+travel+in+italy&w4=North+american&c=4&s=82&.sig=UoCRb
FAtlIM6uQIoi-coHQ> travel in italy


North
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=North+american&w1=Train+travel&w2=Freig
ht+car&w3=Train+travel+in+italy&w4=North+american&c=4&s=82&.sig=RarcFIvgq4m_
fQvbTv7q5w> american







_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



* Visit your group "STMFC <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC> " on
the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



_____


Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company

Charlie Vlk
 

If Swift Refrigerator Lines was formed prior to the CGW takeover, wouldn't it be logical to surmise that the cars were owned by Swift, conveniently listed as StPB&T cars until the SRL was formed, then transfered to the new entity with no real change in ownership, leaving the StPB&T with no reefers (which a switching railroad wouldn't need except maybe for company ice)???
Charlie Vlk


Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company

Thomas Baker
 

Gene,

A logical assumption would be that the equipment, along with the railway, transferred to the CGW. But in the corporate world logical assumptions are not always the order of the day. It is possible that the stock cars were already nearing the end of their useful life and were simply retired. I know that I once saw a photo of an M&StL stock car at the Spring Valley depot. The shot was taken in the teen years of the previous century, and I the appearance of the car leads me to believe that it did not make it into the late Forties and may have been gone sooner than that. Thanks, Gene, for your help and thanks, Tim. Still, I do wonder whether any photos of those cars exist.

Tom

________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gene Green
Sent: Thu 3/16/2006 7:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Thomas Baker wrote:

Group,

Much to my surprise, I recently found out that the St. Paul,
Bridge
and Terminal Railway had stockcars.
The Chicago Great Western absorbed the St.PB&T in 1933 or so, but
before that it was an independent company. Does anyone out there
know
how many stockcars it had, the year or years they were built, and
whether the CGW also relettered and renumbered the cars into its
own
fleet when it took over the St.PB&T.
Tom,

As per the August 1931 ORER, the St. Paul Bridge & Terminal Company
("SPB" marks) owned ten cars: - Cabooses #100, 101, 103, 104 and
105;
MWF 36' Flats #201, 203 & 204; and MWF Flats #205 & 206. No stock
cars
shown.

In the November 1925 ORER, three cabooses were listed (#100-102)
and
four MWF Flats (#200, a 34' 6" footer; #201-203, 36' footers).

The SPB as per the 11/25 ORER operated 29.5 miles under lease from
the
St. Paul Union Stockyards Company. SPB's President was LF Swift of
Chicago. Edward F Swift was President of the Swift Live Stock
Express &
Swift Refrigerator Line. Brothers or Cousins? By August 1931, the
Swift
Live Stock and Refrigerator car lines had been sold to General-
American.

Tim Gilbert
The January 1932 ORER lists 100 stock cars numbered 300 to 399 and
150 stock cars number 500 to 649. There are 5 cabeese number 100,
101, 103, 104 & 105. There are also 5 flat cars number 201, 203,
204, 205 and 206. Unfortunately my next ORER is 1937 so I don't know
what happened next in the St. Paul Bridge & Termain Railway stock car
drama.

Gene Green







Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Carlson wrote:
I have just returned from California's White mountains
with some formerly world's oldest living trees
(Bristle Cone Pine) to mill into HO scale lumber. I
have an HO 12X12 beam with 40 actual tree rings,
about as close to scale as one can get with these
nearly 5000 year old trees. I am going to stain them
with my secret recipe (Beluga whale ambergris). Put me
in the woody camp...
Andy, I just have one question: why didn't you save this message until April 1? <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: wood vs. styrene (was a very short intro)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Roger Robar wrote:
I'm quit sure the hardwood planks when new
were very green when applied/bolted to the flat car decks; within a few days
or so they would begin to dry out thus causing gaps between the planks for
drainage. Besides, it would be a rare occasion that a flat car would ever be
setting on a track perfectly level with or without a load.
Not sure what railroad you follow, Roger, but the two for which I've seen flat car specifications list fully kiln dried lumber for decking. Green hardwood will twist, warp and shrink in various ways, which does NOT make a very good deck. Some of us have witnessed this in a project flat car built at a Railfair a few years ago. Today you could hardly walk on that deck unaided.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: wood vs. styrene (was a very short intro)

Roger Robar <rrobar@...>
 

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Tim Gilbert wrote:

There had to be some accommodation for draining rain water from a flat
car's deck. If the deck was flat with no crown, the planks would have
popped as there was no room for the planks to expand when wet. Small
gaps between hardwood planks would have sufficed to drain the water.



Tim, I do not hold to your theory that flat cars had a crown and would have
expanded enough to 'pop' the planks when soaked with rain. I have never seen
a popped plank on a flat car. I'm quit sure the hardwood planks when new
were very green when applied/bolted to the flat car decks; within a few days
or so they would begin to dry out thus causing gaps between the planks for
drainage. Besides, it would be a rare occasion that a flat car would ever be
setting on a track perfectly level with or without a load.

Roger Robar


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Tony Thompson
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
There had to be some accommodation for draining rain water from a flat
car's deck. If the deck was flat with no crown, the planks would have
popped as there was no room for the planks to expand when wet. Small
gaps between hardwood planks would have sufficed to drain the water.
Sounds good, Tim, but 'tain't so. Many flat car drawings show interlocking or T&G planking; and every photo I've ever seen sure looks like it is laid real tight. I've never seen any crown, either. Anyway, most expansion from damp is along the grain, and that's across the deck width, not along the deck from board to board.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Thomas Baker wrote:

Group,

Much to my surprise, I recently found out that the St. Paul,
Bridge
and Terminal Railway had stockcars.
The Chicago Great Western absorbed the St.PB&T in 1933 or so, but
before that it was an independent company. Does anyone out there
know
how many stockcars it had, the year or years they were built, and
whether the CGW also relettered and renumbered the cars into its
own
fleet when it took over the St.PB&T.
Tom,

As per the August 1931 ORER, the St. Paul Bridge & Terminal Company
("SPB" marks) owned ten cars: - Cabooses #100, 101, 103, 104 and
105;
MWF 36' Flats #201, 203 & 204; and MWF Flats #205 & 206. No stock
cars
shown.

In the November 1925 ORER, three cabooses were listed (#100-102)
and
four MWF Flats (#200, a 34' 6" footer; #201-203, 36' footers).

The SPB as per the 11/25 ORER operated 29.5 miles under lease from
the
St. Paul Union Stockyards Company. SPB's President was LF Swift of
Chicago. Edward F Swift was President of the Swift Live Stock
Express &
Swift Refrigerator Line. Brothers or Cousins? By August 1931, the
Swift
Live Stock and Refrigerator car lines had been sold to General-
American.

Tim Gilbert
The January 1932 ORER lists 100 stock cars numbered 300 to 399 and
150 stock cars number 500 to 649. There are 5 cabeese number 100,
101, 103, 104 & 105. There are also 5 flat cars number 201, 203,
204, 205 and 206. Unfortunately my next ORER is 1937 so I don't know
what happened next in the St. Paul Bridge & Termain Railway stock car
drama.

Gene Green


Re: WFE/FGE Reefer Hatch Latches/Hatch props

Paul Lyons
 

Mike, Sunshine sells photo etched supports. They are exactly what you are looking for. If Martin has any in stock you MIGHT be able to get them fairly quickly.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: nwp_fan <nwp_fan@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:34:39 -0000
Subject: [STMFC] WFE/FGE Reefer Hatch Latches/Hatch props


I am modeling some WFE/FGE reefers from Sunshine and am looking for a
etched metal or good styrene replacement for the L shaped componant
that props the hatch open and latches it shut. In prototype photos it
appears to be a piece of flat metal stock with holes drilled at
regular intervals to vary the height of the open hatch. There are
resin ones provided with the kits but I am looking for ones that are
more "crisp" and have cleanly rendered holes. Any help would be
appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike Dziubinski







Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Traction Cabooses/Misc.

Charlie Vlk
 

I suspect the caboose / no caboose line was drawn based on what the Railroad Commission of the state considered the operation to be-
a interurban with interchange or a freight railroad operated by electricity. Also the union setup on the line probably had a great deal to do with it.
As to Al Westerfield and his NYC origins.... this explains a great deal. Lucky for us he spent some time in the Midwest where you can see freight cars that are not on the deck of a barge!
Charlie Vlk


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Pieter Roos
 

Tim;

I don't recall later cars, but I think the CBCs (as reprinted as
Trainshed Cyclopedias) from the 1930's show a form of shiplap
planking on may flatcar decks, which would suggest no provision for
drainage between the boards.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:

On Thu, March 16, 2006 2:55 pm, timboconnor@... wrote:

Ah, so it begins! :-) Bring it on!

Do you really think someone comes along and scrubs down the
decks of flatcars? They are so filthy that the dirt fills all
the small
grainy scatches. Sure, you can still get big gouges and broken
boards, but that's easy to simulate in styrene or resin. I can
send
you photos of flatcar decks where you can't even see the
separation
between the planks!
Tim,

Actually Tim, I agree.<G> In truth, we shouldn't try to
advocate "one
size fits all" for flat car decks. My point was that that in
your example
the orientation of the boards and their treatment is very
differnent
between flats and box cars. As for the lack of separation
between boards,
that's precisely the effect that REAL wood gives <G>. I also
don't see
gross grain and the joints on my decks are tight, as they should
be.

There had to be some accommodation for draining rain water from a
flat
car's deck. If the deck was flat with no crown, the planks would
have
popped as there was no room for the planks to expand when wet.
Small
gaps between hardwood planks would have sufficed to drain the
water.

Tim Gilbert


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

On Thu, March 16, 2006 2:55 pm, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Ah, so it begins! :-) Bring it on!

Do you really think someone comes along and scrubs down the
decks of flatcars? They are so filthy that the dirt fills all the small
grainy scatches. Sure, you can still get big gouges and broken
boards, but that's easy to simulate in styrene or resin. I can send
you photos of flatcar decks where you can't even see the separation
between the planks!
Tim,

Actually Tim, I agree.<G> In truth, we shouldn't try to advocate "one
size fits all" for flat car decks. My point was that that in your example
the orientation of the boards and their treatment is very differnent
between flats and box cars. As for the lack of separation between boards,
that's precisely the effect that REAL wood gives <G>. I also don't see
gross grain and the joints on my decks are tight, as they should be.
There had to be some accommodation for draining rain water from a flat car's deck. If the deck was flat with no crown, the planks would have popped as there was no room for the planks to expand when wet. Small gaps between hardwood planks would have sufficed to drain the water.

Tim Gilbert


Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Thomas Baker wrote:

Group,

Much to my surprise, I recently found out that the St. Paul, Bridge and Terminal Railway had stockcars.
The Chicago Great Western absorbed the St.PB&T in 1933 or so, but before that it was an independent company. Does anyone out there know how many stockcars it had, the year or years they were built, and whether the CGW also relettered and renumbered the cars into its own fleet when it took over the St.PB&T.
Tom,

As per the August 1931 ORER, the St. Paul Bridge & Terminal Company ("SPB" marks) owned ten cars: - Cabooses #100, 101, 103, 104 and 105; MWF 36' Flats #201, 203 & 204; and MWF Flats #205 & 206. No stock cars shown.

In the November 1925 ORER, three cabooses were listed (#100-102) and four MWF Flats (#200, a 34' 6" footer; #201-203, 36' footers).

The SPB as per the 11/25 ORER operated 29.5 miles under lease from the St. Paul Union Stockyards Company. SPB's President was LF Swift of Chicago. Edward F Swift was President of the Swift Live Stock Express & Swift Refrigerator Line. Brothers or Cousins? By August 1931, the Swift Live Stock and Refrigerator car lines had been sold to General-American.

Tim Gilbert


Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Andy Carlson
 

Hey guys,
I have just returned from California's White mountains
with some formerly world's oldest living trees
(Bristle Cone Pine) to mill into HO scale lumber. I
have an HO 12X12 beam with 40 actual tree rings,
about as close to scale as one can get with these
nearly 5000 year old trees. I am going to stain them
with my secret recipe (Beluga whale ambergris). Put me
in the woody camp...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

I'm too old and frail now to fight the wood fight.

Just keep
in mind that grain is something inside of freight
cars, and
not for the outside of them.


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Bruce Smith
 

On Thu, March 16, 2006 2:55 pm, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Ah, so it begins! :-) Bring it on!

Do you really think someone comes along and scrubs down the
decks of flatcars? They are so filthy that the dirt fills all the small
grainy scatches. Sure, you can still get big gouges and broken
boards, but that's easy to simulate in styrene or resin. I can send
you photos of flatcar decks where you can't even see the separation
between the planks!
Tim,

Actually Tim, I agree.<G> In truth, we shouldn't try to advocate "one
size fits all" for flat car decks. My point was that that in your example
the orientation of the boards and their treatment is very differnent
between flats and box cars. As for the lack of separation between boards,
that's precisely the effect that REAL wood gives <G>. I also don't see
gross grain and the joints on my decks are tight, as they should be.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Traction Cabooses/Misc.

Justin Kahn
 

This really is about a somewhat off-the-wall but, I believe, entirely legitimate question: dealing with the Kaw Valley line regarding its cement traffic, I remembered a view of one of the steeplecabs with a train of about six covered hoppers and a boxcar or two but no caboose. And a few weeks ago the list touched on how the Bamberger operated without them. I conjectured at the time that there tended to ample room in most electric locomotive cabs for everyone, just like modern cabooseless trains, but a number of interurban freight trains DID have them (the Iowa lines, notably, the Insull lines around Chicago, most of the ones I can think of in Ohio, the Sacramento Northern, and even the JW&NW, just as examples).
I don't think I've ever come across a discussion of why some electrified freight operations used cabooses and others didn't; was it a state safety requirement (as was often the case in granger areas)?

And tiptoing around the turnkey to answer Al (It IS about modelling STMFC's): I was in MRREC only once, a good twenty-five years ago, and although it was no longer the mecca it reportedly had been, I was still greatly impressed (and might have considered seriously moving to NYC to have had access to it regularly). So my question might be: where do model railroaders NOW go in NYC for all the things STMFC members require (and need I point out that Al now lives in TN)?
Everything for caving except caves...

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Having been born in NY City I can explain why New Yawkers seem parochial. It's because you can get anything you want there - there's no reason to go anywhere else. My first experience with Model Railroad Equipment Corp. proved that. I told the counter man I had a list of very obscure parts I needed. He reached under the counter, pulled out a stack of catalogs and said: "If it's in there, we have it." They did. When I first got into caving it was difficult to find the proper equipment. I was told to go to Mine Safety Equipment Company down on Chambers Street. After climbing to a third floor loft (each floor being more tilted than the last), I found a place that equipped most of the Everest expeditions! - Al Westerfield
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Pieter Roos
 

Hi Rich;

You really need to go to the Keystone Modeler site and look at the
No. 25 issue with Elden Gatwood's article on PRR class FM flatcars.
Fortunately, it's still available on line for free!

http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm <
BTW, I'm not associated with the the people producing TKM, I just
know a good thing when I see it!

Welcome to the group!

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "RichBeau" <RichBeau@...> wrote:

Which kit...

Of course I'd leave that out!! :-D

Yes, it is the F&C PRR FM Flat with the cast stake-pockets (kit
6501)

While I'm at it...


Would you use proto:87 wheels? Reboxx wheel sets look vey good and
they
are located in the town next door.

What about the couplers? Accumate Proto HO? Or those new fangled
Sergent Engineering couplers? Or ye olde Kadee (#58s)?

--Rich


Pre-Arab Oil

Justin Kahn
 

Gosh, I had entirely forgotten about Kendall, another one of the fallen-flag brand names that dates an area and an era so well in modelling; they were also located in western New York State, although I can't recall whether they were priced below the nationally-branded gasoline, as they were pretty well gone by the time I started having to buy my own fuel, whether bought out by one of the larger firms or unable to rely on the decreasing regional supply of crude, I have no idea.
Wolf's Head was still around not that long ago, very much a premium lubricant (I didn't recall any gasoline until you mentioned it, and now I am starting to wonder...) and probably mostly sold in New York State and Pennsylvania (I had to buy one of the Atlas Wolf's Head tankcars, even though I didn't need another tanker, as Atlas may not always put the lettering on the correct type of car, but they do pride themselves on correctness of the lettering, so presumably there actually WERE Wolf's Head tankers, although probably not very many of them).
North of the line (barely), the only refinery I remember was at Wellsville NY, and I'm pretty sure it was originally Sinclair, although toward the end (it's been closed at least twenty years, probably more like thirty) it was Quaker State, and produced only motor oil and other lubricants by that time. In spite of the name, I have often wondered whether most of it comes from Northwestern PA/Southwestern production, given the volume required for national distribution. I have only vague recollections of tankcars around the refinery, although I would think the majority of the lubricant production would have gone out in boxcars in cases. The only thing I can really put my finger on about it, is that all accounts indicate that when the refinery closed, the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton lost most of the traffic from that end, which suggests that they did ship sufficient by rail to make such a difference.
Probably there were suppliers of the casing-head gasoline around the field, as there once were in the TX/OK Oil Patch, but probably long gone before I was around or would have noticed, but I doubt that ever traveled by rail.
Curious about the Pure cars, too, as I can't remember any Pure filling stations in New York State, so it may have been excess production sold to northeastern distributors--or could it have been heating oil?
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Subject: Binghamton & Pa Gasoline

I have a friend that has photos of Pure Oil tank cars and local distributor
in Binghamton ca '30s.

When I was going to Penn State back in the 50's a freind from Oil City
expelained the PA oil and refining business to me.

Seems that PA petroluem is "paraffin based" where as Texas and almost all
other different with another base which I think was "asphalt base". Back in the
'30s top grades of motor oils were advertised as "100% Pure Pennsylvania".

The PA crude was almost reading to use as motor oil as it came out of the
ground
so very litle refining was needed. So there was little gasoline produced in
northestern PA, especially in the period of interst to this group.

What little gasoline that was produced was sold locally. There were Kendall,
Wolf's Head, etc. and other brands sold but only in the NE PA region. I recall
seeing a few Wolf's Head gasoline stations and that stuff was "liquid
dynamite" according to local traditions.

I am sure it would be relatively easy to find more on this from the
apropriate sites and reference books. So my considered opinon was that very little
gasoine was shipped by tank car from that area in our priod of interest, including
Olean on the Erie.

For what it is worth, I used to have a shot of an Amoco tank car on the Erie
delivering gasoline to Scranton about 1950.

Chuck Yungkurth



They might been been at the end of Pure Oil having tank cars of their
own. Sometime in the 1930's, Pure Oil sold their cars to UTLX.
When I was in Marietta OH in the 1960's, I had dinner with a farmer who
had seven oil wells on his property which produced about 30 barrels a
month in total. When I asked whether it was "sweet crude." The farmer
replied said "Here Taste It." Which diplomatically I did not not wishing
to explain that "sweet crude" was an euphemism for low-sulphur. It was
low-sulphur.

Tim Gilbert
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

132841 - 132860 of 185269