Date   

Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"I have only one thing to say: ERTL. :-)"

Tim, again you read without fully comprehending and you quote me
totally out of context. I wrote in the same post (Message #53320):

"The same "HMS DREADNOUGHT" analogy that I made regarding their PS-1
model applies here - put something on the market that is so far
superior to what exists today, market it properly, and customers
will flock to you."

While they did offer distinctively different prototypes than what was
available at the time on the mass market, Ertl didn't offer a markedly
superior product, and they utterly failed to coherently market their
product line. Search far enough back in the archives for "Ertl" and
you'll find that I make that point clearly.


Ben Hom


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

tchenoweth@...
 

I talked to Ertl at a national meet and asked them why they applied
weathering. He said it improved the model and made it more authenic. I asked them not
to since they didn't do a very realistic job of it. All of a sudden he ddn't
want to talk any more to me. Tom Chenoweth


East Coast Santa Fe Modelers Meet

Bill Jones
 

e-mail me if you want map to this event.
bill dot jones dot wt at comcast.net


East Coast Santa Fe Modelers Meet

Bill Jones
 

Come to our Annual
East Coast Santa Fe Modelers Meet

April 7 - 9, 2006
Our Host This Year:
The Gateway Model Railroad Club:
Established in 1958, the Gateway Club operates the Jersey Coast Line
and is located at 100 Browning Road, Brooklawn, NJ 08030. For more
information see http://www.gatewaymodelrr.org/index.htm

Special Presentations by Andy Sperandeo, Executive Editor of Model
Railroader Magazine

Clinics:

Santa Fe Operations in Cajon Pass - Andy Sperandeo

Modeling ATSF Mail Trains - Andy Sperandeo and Al Iezzi

Building a Santa Fe Stock Pen – Bill Van der Meer

Modeling Trestle Bents – Don Nyce

Signaling on DCC Layouts – Gateway Club Staff

See files section: East Coast 13th East Coast Santa Fe Convention

Contact Person: Bill Jones
Email: bill.jones.wt at comcast.net

Hotel: The Days Inn at Brooklawn is conveniently located close to the
Gateway Club and has set aside a block of rooms for convention
attendees. Just mention "Santa Fe East Coast Convention" and qualify
for a special rate. Contact the hotel at 856-456-6688 or go to their
web site http://www.daysinnbrooklawn.com/


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

In 10+ years at my train club I have yet to spot an L&N or NC&StL
freight car of any kind. And we model a railroad line that traverses
Kentucky east to west!
Mike Brock wrote

Hmmmm. I hate to say this but that doesn't speak real positively for your
club. Sorta like modeling Tehachapi with no Santa Fe or SP cars during the
steam era.

You hear that Andy, Schuyler and Malcolm? Mike is dissin' the North Shore!

( I agree with you Mike but then I'm kinda the black sheep of the club... )

P.S. I have about a dozen L&N and NC&StL cars myself but I'm afraid to put
anything on the layout for fear of the TONGS... X;{

Tim O'


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ed Hawkins writes:

Not an oversight any more than I didn't mention a number of other roads
as well that don't match up with the Kadee model.
The Kadee model has angles
extending from the end sill to the top of the flat ends. Other roads
having cars of the same basic arrangement as Southern included B&O
(N-35/N-35C; further different with Duryea underframes), BM, CP, L&N,
LNE, MEC, MP, T&P, and TC.
Variations such as these in the A.A.R. standard designs, of which the
50-ton hoppers had many, are testament to the difficulties that
challenge model manufacturers that care about producing accurate scale
renderings.
For certain I applaud Kadee for their model making integrity. I, of course, don't really have a seat in this game...being as how Sherman Hill would have seen few of any of these cars. I would think, however, that the Southern, B&O, L&N, MP, T&P and CP...and even a minor road like B&M <G>... would be more likely to increase sells than those of the style selected. OTOH, it's not my call and what do I know anyhow.

Mike Brock


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Rob Adams
 

Ed;

Just when I was getting excited about the potential of a factory decorated Kadee car that I could legitimately own and run on my 1938 road, you've dashed my hopes. I spent some time looking through the several issues of RP Cyc that contain material about the 1935 AAR offset-side cars and your comments the differences on the early cars now make complete sense. But drats, I was really looking forward to a Mopac or two, and even a Southern car on my roster. Looks like a compromise or two will be in order. Many thanks to you and Pat for providing so much excellent material in the RP Cycs. Anyone interested in the new Kadee car should really seek out those issues (1,2,4,8,9 & 13). The answers are there and the photos will provide plenty to ponder about Kadee's next road name releases.

Regards, Rob Adams

Ed Hawkins wrote:


On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 04:55 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

<SNIP>
Ed didn't mention Sou for some reason. Perhaps an oversight.
Mike,
Not an oversight any more than I didn't mention a number of other roads
as well that don't match up with the Kadee model. Southern's 50-ton AAR
hoppers all had the other side sill arrangement, which bends upward
from the bolsters to the corner posts (like the Atlas model). Also, the
ends were different having inward-facing channels extending from the
end sills to the bottom of the end sheets. The Kadee model has angles
extending from the end sill to the top of the flat ends. Other roads
having cars of the same basic arrangement as Southern included B&O
(N-35/N-35C; further different with Duryea underframes), BM, CP, L&N,
LNE, MEC, MP, T&P, and TC.

Variations such as these in the A.A.R. standard designs, of which the
50-ton hoppers had many, are testament to the difficulties that
challenge model manufacturers that care about producing accurate scale
renderings. Some companies would produce a generic model and slap every
imaginable road name on it (I think we know of a few) while other
companies are more discriminating in meeting the definition of "close
enough." Modelers make their own determinations of what's "close
enough" and that's why I believe there will be a lot of Kadee
undecorated models sold for these purposes. The cost of the Kadee model
is significantly greater than the Athearn and Atlas models, but there's
a HUGE difference in the level of detail. What I haven't commented on
yet is the fact is that the Kadee model actually has offset sides on
the interior, something that has never been accomplished before on a
plastic 50-ton AAR hopper car model in HO scale. For loaded cars this
isn't important, but roughly half of the time these cars ran empty.

Right now in HO scale we have the Kadee model that is essentially a
<major> upgrade of the old Athearn model from the 1950s, and there's
the Atlas model that is a different configuration (the earlier version)
of the AAR Standard design. Maybe one day an Alternate Standard hopper
will become available as an accurate HO-scale model. A model
manufacturer that cares about the level of prototype accuracy being
depicted will be concerned that C&O alone had at least 5 different end
arrangements to spend money for their tooling.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



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Rob Adams
Wellman, IA
steamera@netins.net
Modeling CB&Q, CRI&P and Wabash operations in Keokuk, IA,
the Wabash Bluffs, IL to Keokuk branch, and the CB&Q's Keokuk & Western branch, circa 1938
<http://www.KeokukandWesternRR.com>


Re: Sunshine mini-kit (was Kadee's new hopper)

Ed Hawkins
 

On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 03:50 PM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Ed or anyone, do you know the answer to the question about
whether the Sunshine mini-kit for the alternate standard car
would be applicable (given what you know about the side sills,
ends and door locks) to the Kadee car? I assume the Kadee is
correctly dimensioned, but I don't know if the castings will then
match it since I think they were matched to the Atlas body.
I am particularly interested in NP and C&O cars for which I have
the mini-kits.
Tim,
The answer is no unless major reconstruction is done. The main problem
is with the side sills. The vast majority of the Alternate Standard
cars had side sills like the Atlas model, which bent upward from the
bolsters to the corner posts. The Kadee model is level from the
bolsters to the corner posts and with a shallow fish-belly between the
bolsters. There is also the matter of a 3"-4" height differential
between most Alternate Standard cars and AAR Standard 50-ton hoppers,
irrespective of any differences of the end arrangements.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Another PFE reefer....

espeefan@juno.com <espeefan@...>
 

Paul,
The 2 major errors in the IMR PFE R-40-25 are the ends and the underframe.
The ends have a flat bottomed rib on the top rolling pin tapered rib-see Thompson's Pacific Fruit Express pg.180 for an example.
The underframe on a -25 has no end tabs by the stirrups. There are other differences also. Actually the underframe in the -25 kit is from the R-40-23 car.
There are other errors but I'll talk with you latter about these.
Hope we will be able to correct these errors someday.
Down by you, Paul, off of San Juan Capistrano and the 5 at the old ATSF depot are SEVEN PFE REEFERS, 3 R-40-23's and 4 R-40-25's. You will enjoy them.
Sincerely,
Dan Smith.


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Ed Hawkins
 

On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 11:20 AM, jim_mischke wrote:

What road names are the new Kadee offset side twin hoppers accurate
for??
Jim,
The model is reasonably accurate for Alton (later to GM&O), ATSF, C&EI,
C&I, CG, CIL, D&H, GA, GM&O, MILW, NC&StL, NS, NYC, RDG, SB, and SLOF
(later to C&EI). All of these cars had vertical angles supporting the
ends, which were flat, and side sills that were level from the bolsters
to the corner posts. As I stated earlier, some cars require some
different door locking mechanisms. There were numerous other roads
having similar, but different versions of AAR 50-ton hopper cars having
either the ends or side sills of a different arrangement than the Kadee
model. When I say "reasonably accurate" I'm overlooking some small
details such as the orientation of the angles used for the side stakes,
which weren't always the same configuration.

Accurate models for many other prototype cars could be produced if
other end arrangements were to be tooled. This includes a substantial
number of prototype cars using Z-sections supporting the ends such as
those used by B&O (N-41 and N-44 cars), CRP/CNJ, LNE, and P&S. Sam
Clarke of Kadee might want to comment on this, but it's my current
understanding that Kadee is not considering other end arrangements at
this time. Highly accurate cars for the previously mentioned roads and
others having heap shields could be made if the tooling expense for the
other end arrangements was to be substantiated (perhaps as special
projects with historical societies or similar organizations).

One of the more prominent roads that has been discussed is the L&N,
whose cars either had a different side sill arrangement (for their cars
with flat ends) or heap shields and thus the Kadee model does not match
L&N's prototype cars. The article I've prepared for RMJ will discuss
the various differences in the AAR design and will provide a roster and
photos of most cars above that generally match the Kadee model. Nearly
all of these photos have previously been published in RP CYC (Volumes
1, 2, 4, 8, 9, and 13) and they are of larger format than will likely
be seen in RMJ.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Another PFE reefer....

espeefan@juno.com <espeefan@...>
 

Tim,
I think Paul means the R-40-25.
Dan Smith.


Re: Resin Casting Question

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Al, thanks for your input.
Is the rubber you use available in the small quantities that a duffer
like me would want? What brand or part number?

For someone like myself not engaged in commercial production just
getting a few castings per mold wouldn't be much of a problem.

RE your last sentence: Would consistent shrinkage (perhaps expressed
as a per cent or ratio) mean that if the full sized masters fit
together properly, then the slightly smaller parts would also fit
each other?

Would a large part with a greater volume shrink more (again as a per
cent or ratio) than a thin or small part? What I have in mind here
are those dimples we see on the larger parts of some plastic models.

Could some solid material be embedded in parts of a large volume to
reduce the amount of liquid resin so that there would be less
shrinkage? Would defective castings, flash, scraps and leftovers led
themselves to 'stretching' the liquid resin? Does fresh liquid resin
adhere well to previously cured resin?

Thanks in advance.
Gene Green



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:

Gene - I was away so can only now offer my two cents. Choosing a
rubber is all a matter of trade-offs. As Tom mentioned shrinkage,
tear strength, etc. all must be taken into consideration. I use a
rubber that doesn't shrink and sets up in 16 hours. The downside is
that it gets fewer uses than other, more popular compounds. The best
way to avoid the shrinkage problem is to cast all of the parts in one
master mold, the masters for which have been sized to assemble
properly. - Al


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:



Let's see... will the NYC fans buy blocks of 50 hoppers? Doubtful... I think
a few B&O fans will,
Except...apparently, it won't be a Kadee car.

and CNJ too.

CNJ?

(Lots of rich modelers back east.) MP...
nah. SLSF... nope.
Hmmm. I like MP and SLSF. 50 cars? Not that much.

AT&SF... yes I agree this might be the biggest seller of
all.
Except...again...it apparently won't be a Kadee car.

In 10+ years at
my train club I have yet to spot an L&N or NC&StL freight car of any kind.
And we model a railroad line that traverses Kentucky east to west!
Hmmmm. I hate to say this but that doesn't speak real positively for your club. Sorta like modeling Tehachapi with no Santa Fe or SP cars during the steam era.

I think
the locks sound ok for C&NW/CMO -- could be another good seller. I do
like the Southern very much (it interchanges with the Chesapeake & Lake
Erie at several points)
Ed didn't mention Sou for some reason. Perhaps an oversight.

Mike Brock


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

seaboard_1966
 

Guys

I need to sound off on this car. It is my opinion, as a modeler of a SE road but one that did not have this car, that this is a good choice. For those modeling the SE here is a car that they can pretty much call their own. It is about time. Check out the owners list, man o man, GA,CG, the original, best NS and the list goes on.

I sure wish that Athearn would indeed add some details to their long ago paid for car and market it head to head with this Kadee car, as someone else suggested. But, for me, this is a great choice and will save me some time in redetailing a bunch of cars the way that I do. Now, if NS would just give me some time off for some modeling.

Denis Blake
Columbus, OH

----- Original Message -----
From: <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 6:41 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper



Let's see... will the NYC fans buy blocks of 50 hoppers? Doubtful... I think
a few B&O fans will, and CNJ too. (Lots of rich modelers back east.) MP...
nah. SLSF... nope. AT&SF... yes I agree this might be the biggest seller of
all. (Santa Fe fans are legion; almost as many as PRR.) In 10+ years at
my train club I have yet to spot an L&N or NC&StL freight car of any kind.
And we model a railroad line that traverses Kentucky east to west! I think
the locks sound ok for C&NW/CMO -- could be another good seller. I do
like the Southern very much (it interchanges with the Chesapeake & Lake
Erie at several points) but I have this really nicely decorated set of Athearn
cars I got for about $6 each.... not sure about the door locks used by the
Southern anyway.

Ben says to be patient... ok, I'm trying... (breathe...exhale...breathe...)


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>

Well, Ed Hawkins seems to be saying that it is "correct" for about 16 RRs.
The RPCyc article lists quite a few RRs but determining which are correct
for the car's particular version will take some time. I would suggest
finding a copy of the RPCyc and doing your own evaluation...then you could
tell US...or wait until someone else does it.

Mike Brock


Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: Painted wheelsets...

armprem
 

I may be totally incorrect,but I always assumed that the practice of painting wheels was discontinued because it was felt that paint frequently hid cracks in the wheels and perhaps other damage.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "proto48er" <atkott@swbell.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 7:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Painted wheelsets...


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

Last week I did some paint research on Yosemite Valley Railroad
caboose 15
on display near Yosemite National Park. The faces of the wheelsets
on this
caboose are currently painted black although photos suggest that
the
wheelsets were painted boxcar red along with the trucks when the
car was in
operation. While I did find evidence of boxcar red on some truck
parts such
as the sides of the journals, I didn't find any paint color under
the
current black on the wheelsets themselves. I know that wheelsets
are not
painted these days in order to make cracks and defects more
obvious.
However, I was under the impression that wheelsets were painted
(most likely
the same color as the trucks) back in the steam era. Is that a
correct
assumption? When did the non-paint practice start?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com
Jack -

I do not know about YV equipment, but Missouri Pacific painted
the entire underframes, couplers, truck sideframes, truck bolsters,
and wheels & axles of freight cars with black paint from at least
1927 up through 1956 or so. I have documented this on numerous cars
I have measured, with some MW cars still having painted wheels,
couplers and trucks (from the steam era) as late as the early
1980's. I recall that M-K-T covered hoppers may also have had
matching gray paint on the truck sideframes, but wheels and couplers
were unpainted. I think it was primarily an economy thing - some
railroads were more "tight" with the use of personnel and paint, and
some (like MP) were "spit and polish" to a fault - MP used pure
silver leaf to letter their steam locos right to the end in the
1950's, for instance. A.T. Kott






Yahoo! Groups Links








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Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ed Hawkins writes about the new Kadee AAR Standard 34 ft hopper:

The model is reasonably accurate for Alton (later to GM&O), ATSF, C&EI,
C&I, CG, CIL, D&H, GA, GM&O, MILW, NC&StL, NS, NYC, RDG, SB, and SLOF
(later to C&EI). All of these cars had vertical angles supporting the
ends, which were flat, and side sills that were level from the bolsters
to the corner posts. As I stated earlier, some cars require some
different door locking mechanisms.
Presumably negating as Ed said earlier a Kadee painted SLSF and Santa Fe car. It is not Kadee's fault, of course, that the RRs seemed to live by a "not invented here" syndrome but to make an AAR Standard 2 bay hopper without the likes of Santa Fe, Frisco, B&O and L&N seems akin to making a Challenger steam loco for all roads except UP and NP or a USRA 2-8-8-2 without the N&W version. I am guessing that the popular PS-1 generated a collector mentality and so might this car but it still seems odd....and a bit disappointing...that the "major" users are missing in action.
Mike Brock


Re: Seeking excerpts from obscure equipment diagram books

George Hollwedel <georgeloop1338@...>
 

An interesting characteristic of the internet is the tendency for one to see
things as one sees things in their own world. Thus, I might send what I
consider to be an important message and when I don't receive a reply from
someone, I might wonder...what's wrong with that guy? I might assume he's
ignoring me and even get upset about it. Then I find that he's in China for
several weeks or his computer hard drive crashed or the guy is in jail. I
mean...who knows?


Mike Brock


In jail for carrying a concealed handgun across state lines...




George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@austin.rr.com
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883

---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates.


Re: Painted wheelsets...

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

Last week I did some paint research on Yosemite Valley Railroad
caboose 15
on display near Yosemite National Park. The faces of the wheelsets
on this
caboose are currently painted black although photos suggest that
the
wheelsets were painted boxcar red along with the trucks when the
car was in
operation. While I did find evidence of boxcar red on some truck
parts such
as the sides of the journals, I didn't find any paint color under
the
current black on the wheelsets themselves. I know that wheelsets
are not
painted these days in order to make cracks and defects more
obvious.
However, I was under the impression that wheelsets were painted
(most likely
the same color as the trucks) back in the steam era. Is that a
correct
assumption? When did the non-paint practice start?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com
Jack -

I do not know about YV equipment, but Missouri Pacific painted
the entire underframes, couplers, truck sideframes, truck bolsters,
and wheels & axles of freight cars with black paint from at least
1927 up through 1956 or so. I have documented this on numerous cars
I have measured, with some MW cars still having painted wheels,
couplers and trucks (from the steam era) as late as the early
1980's. I recall that M-K-T covered hoppers may also have had
matching gray paint on the truck sideframes, but wheels and couplers
were unpainted. I think it was primarily an economy thing - some
railroads were more "tight" with the use of personnel and paint, and
some (like MP) were "spit and polish" to a fault - MP used pure
silver leaf to letter their steam locos right to the end in the
1950's, for instance. A.T. Kott


Re: Another PFE reefer....

Andy Carlson
 

Actually. I should have said -25 (the -24 is a plywood
car).

The incorrect ends used on the R-40-25 were the same
end as IM used on the R-40-23. The R-40-23 had no thin
top rib, the -25 should have this thin rib which goes
missing on the IM -25. The R-40-23 has a side sill tab
which supports the side sill corner step, this should
be absent on the -25, along with the -23s poling
pocket. R-40-25s are quickly identified by the
corners, this ID suffers in HO scale when the -23
pieces are used. The car really needs a new end. The
sides (essentially unchanged from the -23-except for
the sill tab area)and newly tooled diagonal panel roof
look good to me.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- cobrapsl@aol.com wrote:

Andy, Over the years I have had a couple of
conversations with you and Dan Smith about the short
comings of the Intermountain R-40-24. Unforunately,
it was usally at an event where I was somewhat
distracted by the the surroundings, meaning I was
not paying as close attention as I should have been.
Therefore, could you, again, give us a brief
summary of the models inaccuracies?

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Another PFE reefer....


Not if it is done as badly as the -24...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
--- asychis@aol.com wrote:
So I guess no
one really wants an R40-26....



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Re: Another PFE reefer....

Tim O'Connor
 

Paul,

Intermountain made an R-40-24 ??

Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: cobrapsl@aol.com
Andy, Over the years I have had a couple of conversations with you
and Dan Smith about the short comings of the Intermountain R-40-24.

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