Date   

Re: Seeking excerpts from obscure equipment diagram books

Rob Adams
 

Jim;

Perhaps it was because your request didn't stand out prominently enough...I can honestly say that I didn't even see your request until your second post, as the initial inquiry came at the end of a post about B&O cars that I glossed over because it didn't appear to have relevance to my modeling period (1938).

I am curious about one comment that you made about the AA PS-1 box cars though. You mentioned AA 1956-built PS-1 's with 6 and 8 foot doors going to the B&O. I'm presently eating lunch at the office and don't have access to my files, but my recollection is that the B&O ended up with the AA's 1956-built 300-399 series PS-1's with 6-foot doors, and some of the 1957-built 400-499 series (also with 6 foot doors), but I didn't recall the AA parting with any of their 8-foot door cars from the 1200-1399 (c.1957) or 1400-1409 (c.1959?) series. Can you provide more detail? If my recollections are accurate, the transactions took place some time after the DT&I took over the Ann Arbor in 1963 (recall that the AA had been controlled by the Wabash from 1925 to 1963 and the AA was spun off prior to the Wabash being absorbed by the N&W). There were a lot of bizarre transactions that took place after the DT&I came on to the AA property. It would be interesting to know what the thought process was for parting with a substantial number of the AA's most modern cars in such short order, while hanging on to a bunch of older stuff and then handing down some similar tired equipment to the AA. Undoubtedly some bookkeeping voodoo and just about the short-term bottom-line for the parent company.

But we are now straying outside the focus and period of this group. I'm going to climb back over the fence.

Kind regards, Rob

jim_mischke wrote:



Without having to take said chill pill, I have now recieved a dozen
constructive suggestions, book citations and xeroxing offers of help
with most railroad diagrams requested. Thank you all!

My comment about " .. or is everyone here close with their source
material .. " was sharp and out of line. I apologize.
I do wonder, however, why a question about 48' Athearn gondola
ribbing can draw fifteen posts here in an afternoon while a serious
source material question like mine goes uncommented upon by anyone
for days.

Until recently, I have seldom found decent information on the web and
it is still all too rare. There are too many self appointed experts
and cheap scanners filling cyberspace with folklore, falsehoods,
unvetted data, unusable images, and misinterpreted captions. My main
thing is B&O locomotives and is a vast factual wasteland out there. Some good material is posted, it is just too dilute. For me, it is
far more efficient and effective to network with the real experts, on
line and off, and share xerox source material. I'll take personal
visitation and snail mail over the web any day.

Interesting that I just drove 2200 miles to look at genuine N&W and
C&O diagram books yet am critized by Mr. Smith for being so lazy as
to not clicking on some web site I never heard of.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "smithbf36832" <smithbf@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@> wrote:
Don't all speak up at once.
I have had no responses offering assistance from my recent
request
for diagrams, on or off list.
Are there no source material freight car diagrams for Ann Arbor,
Lake
Terminal, Maine Central, Lehigh and New England, Lehigh Valley,
CNJ,
Rock Island, B&M, B&LE, P&LE, PRR X-43 boxcars, Reading or
Virginian??
Um Jim,

First, THERE ARE NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES.
Second, "take a chill pill dude". A simple Google search of "PRR
X43"
got to Rob Schoenberg's page on these cars as the FIRST HIT. On
top
of that, we must have posted the link to Rob's pages tens of times
on
this list. ALL (STMFC relevant) PRR CAR CLASS ARE FREEELY
AVAILABLE
ON THE WEB thanks to Rob. So your attitude, seemingly demanding
that
we supply you with information that could so easily obtained by
yourself by just a tiny bit of effort, is not particularly
endearing,
nor likely to encourage folks to work with you.

Sincerely
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn AL (although currently ensconced in Steamboat Colorado,
which
received its 415th INCH of snow yesterday!)




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--
Rob Adams
Wellman, IA
steamera@netins.net
Modeling CB&Q, CRI&P and Wabash operations in Keokuk, IA,
the Wabash Bluffs, IL to Keokuk branch, and the CB&Q's Keokuk & Western branch, circa 1938
<http://www.KeokukandWesternRR.com>


Re: Painted wheelsets...

Jack Burgess
 

On this project (which involves the restoration of the actual caboose using
funding from the Yosemite Fund under the direction of the National Park
Service) I keep reminding myself that we are painting and lettering a
full-size caboose rather than a model...no weathering involved! <g> I'm sure
that the current black paint is cosmetic but I want to make sure that the
final restored and painted caboose is correct for the prototype...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Jack,

Can't give you a date on the prohibition on painting wheels, but
consider this; if you are modeling cars with solid bearings, it
doesn't make any difference. The only thing that sealed the back of
the traditional journal box was a wood "dust guard", and the oil that
crept out the back of the box was flung evenly across the face of the
wheel, where it quickly became covered with dust and the binder in a
layer of black crud that uniformly covered all the wheels on steam era
freight cars. Very likely one reason why no one worried about painting
wheels back in pre-roller bearing days is that no one could see the
wheels anyway because of this layer of crud.

Just for grins I pulled the Morning Sun UP Color Guide, because the UP
stock cars are one group of early roller bearing cars I thought I
could put my finger on in a hurry. All the stockcar photos, however,
date from the seventies, and have unpainted wheels, but there is a
very nice photo of a silver ore car, built in 1962, with RB trucks and
flawlessly painted silver wheels and couplers, also a photo of an
express box taken in 1959 with wheels with a nice coat of Harbor Mist
Gray. Since nothing after 1960 actually exists according to this list,
I think you can paint the wheels any color you want, but based on all
the pix of cars with solid bearings, you then have to weather them to
a uniform oily black.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Shawn Beckert
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

The PS-2 has NOT been as big a success -- How do I know that?
Because the latest releases are not selling out nearly as fast.
Many of the box cars sold out in less than a month, even 3 or 4
years after the first ones came out. The first PS-2's sold out
quickly, but many later ones are not sold out.
Part of the problem, as has been discussed before, is that cement
hoppers tend to be fairly limited in how far they travel in interchange.
Kadee has done plenty of PS-2's in attractive (for a cement hopper)
paint schemes, but realistically a modeler can only buy the ones
for his particular railroad, give or take a few "foreign road" cars.
Otherwise there is the risk of unwanted attention from the Prototype
Police <g>.

I will buy any and all SP/SSW hoppers that Kadee cares to produce,
but that's about about all I can do as far as Class 1 roads. I will say
this, however: far be it for me to tell Sam his business, but if more
private-owner PS-2's were to hit the shelves, I think sales would be
more brisk. Private-owner hoppers could be seen just about
anywhere, with very few exceptions. Thus any modeler can have
one or more on his road with the confidence that he's running a
prototypical operation.

Shawn Beckert, ready for the next potash hopper...


Re: Painted wheelsets...

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

...I was under the impression that wheelsets were painted (most likely
the same color as the trucks) back in the steam era. Is that a correct
assumption? When did the non-paint practice start?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com
Jack,

Can't give you a date on the prohibition on painting wheels, but
consider this; if you are modeling cars with solid bearings, it
doesn't make any difference. The only thing that sealed the back of
the traditional journal box was a wood "dust guard", and the oil that
crept out the back of the box was flung evenly across the face of the
wheel, where it quickly became covered with dust and the binder in a
layer of black crud that uniformly covered all the wheels on steam era
freight cars. Very likely one reason why no one worried about painting
wheels back in pre-roller bearing days is that no one could see the
wheels anyway because of this layer of crud.

Just for grins I pulled the Morning Sun UP Color Guide, because the UP
stock cars are one group of early roller bearing cars I thought I
could put my finger on in a hurry. All the stockcar photos, however,
date from the seventies, and have unpainted wheels, but there is a
very nice photo of a silver ore car, built in 1962, with RB trucks and
flawlessly painted silver wheels and couplers, also a photo of an
express box taken in 1959 with wheels with a nice coat of Harbor Mist
Gray. Since nothing after 1960 actually exists according to this list,
I think you can paint the wheels any color you want, but based on all
the pix of cars with solid bearings, you then have to weather them to
a uniform oily black.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

What road names are the new Kadee offset side twin hoppers accurate
for??




--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Bill,

The STANDARD twin??? :-( Who's going to pay $40 for that? Phooey.

My club has about 200 AAR standard twins -- mostly Athearn. I
don't think I could talk them into upgrading. Plus we're slowly
putting Reboxx wheels on them -- something that has to be done
to Kadee cars too.

It's the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP and ERIE and IC and NP guys
who are left out in the cold again... But I guess a few L&N fans
will be happy.

Tim


No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the
New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next
release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper. Like I said
ya'll
road modelers will want many of these, unless they are modeling
the
Clinchfield.

Bill Welch


Re: Seeking excerpts from obscure equipment diagram books

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Without having to take said chill pill, I have now recieved a dozen
constructive suggestions, book citations and xeroxing offers of help
with most railroad diagrams requested. Thank you all!

My comment about " .. or is everyone here close with their source
material .. " was sharp and out of line. I apologize.

I do wonder, however, why a question about 48' Athearn gondola
ribbing can draw fifteen posts here in an afternoon while a serious
source material question like mine goes uncommented upon by anyone
for days.

Until recently, I have seldom found decent information on the web and
it is still all too rare. There are too many self appointed experts
and cheap scanners filling cyberspace with folklore, falsehoods,
unvetted data, unusable images, and misinterpreted captions. My main
thing is B&O locomotives and is a vast factual wasteland out there.
Some good material is posted, it is just too dilute. For me, it is
far more efficient and effective to network with the real experts, on
line and off, and share xerox source material. I'll take personal
visitation and snail mail over the web any day.

Interesting that I just drove 2200 miles to look at genuine N&W and
C&O diagram books yet am critized by Mr. Smith for being so lazy as
to not clicking on some web site I never heard of.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "smithbf36832" <smithbf@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jim_mischke" <jmischke@> wrote:
Don't all speak up at once.

I have had no responses offering assistance from my recent
request
for diagrams, on or off list.

Are there no source material freight car diagrams for Ann Arbor,
Lake
Terminal, Maine Central, Lehigh and New England, Lehigh Valley,
CNJ,
Rock Island, B&M, B&LE, P&LE, PRR X-43 boxcars, Reading or
Virginian??
Um Jim,

First, THERE ARE NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES.

Second, "take a chill pill dude". A simple Google search of "PRR
X43"
got to Rob Schoenberg's page on these cars as the FIRST HIT. On
top
of that, we must have posted the link to Rob's pages tens of times
on
this list. ALL (STMFC relevant) PRR CAR CLASS ARE FREEELY
AVAILABLE
ON THE WEB thanks to Rob. So your attitude, seemingly demanding
that
we supply you with information that could so easily obtained by
yourself by just a tiny bit of effort, is not particularly
endearing,
nor likely to encourage folks to work with you.

Sincerely
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn AL (although currently ensconced in Steamboat Colorado,
which
received its 415th INCH of snow yesterday!)


Re: Digest Number 3076

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/2006 4:39:40 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@yahoogroups.com writes:
I will buy any and all SP/SSW hoppers that Kadee cares to produce,
The Amarillo Railroad Museum has two numbers of the SP Kadee PS2 cement
hoppers that Kadee does not offer. amarillorailmuseum.com

Jerry Michels


Kadee's new hopper

asychis@...
 

would someone post a list of the railroads that had these cars?

Jerry Michels


Another PFE reefer....

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/2006 4:39:40 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@yahoogroups.com writes:
At least it ain't another PFE reefer (see comment in para 1 above before
being offended or upset)


Marty McGuirk

Shame on you Marty! I think back of the thousands of InterMountain PFE
reefers we bought and sold and are still buying and selling! :^) So I guess no
one really wants an R40-26....

Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum


Mopac Hoppers reported in Fraley's Wheel Reports

asychis@...
 

Aha! This also probably identifies the service for a loaded MP drop-bottom
gondola I photographed westbound at Laramie in the 1970s (sorry for the out of
time span content, but it does answer a question I have had for years).

Jerry Michels


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Ben Hom wrote

You know, quite a few of us sniffed "Who's going to pay $30 for a
HO scale PS-1?" in 1997, and Kadee ended up making us look pretty
damned stupid.
Not me. I was a happy camper with the PS-1, because I knew the
shortcomings of the IM cars (and especially IM paint & lettering).

You're right - not everyone is going to pay $40 for this car. But
there are many who not only will buy one car, but multiple cars to
fill out their coal trains. (And on top of that, you can offer it
in Santa Fe!)
I have only one thing to say: ERTL. :-)

Tim


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

From: <mjmcguirk@cox.net>

Although I'm looking forward to adding a few of these cars to my roster,
I model New England, which saw its share of foreign road hoppers.
Yeah, like ERIE, PRR, N&W, C&O, NKP, LV. Hmmm, where are the so-called
"standard" hoppers? Not too many L&N or NC&StL hoppers made it up to
New England. Or Sherman Hill.

I'm also wondering if the market can bear $30-$40 cars that wear what
can best be described as "lackluster" paint schemes.
I would like to point out that Kadee's PS-1 had only one real competitor
when it was released -- Intermountain -- and IRC had produced mostly
PS-1 kits up to that point (not RTR), many of which were bogus.

Also, the PS-1 is a box car, with attractive paint schemes, and everybody
needs them who models the 1950's or later. And the collectors like pretty
box cars.

The PS-2 has NOT been as big a success -- How do I know that? Because
the latest releases are not selling out nearly as fast. Many of the box cars
sold out in less than a month, even 3 or 4 years after the first ones came
out. The first PS-2's sold out quickly, but many later ones are not sold out.

Moreover, Kadee is now going HEAD-TO-HEAD with the biggest gun in
the hobby -- Athearn. If Athearn wants to, they can upgrade their hoppers
with wire grabs and sell them for $20, or they can just go paint-for-paint
scheme with Kadee and sell them for $10. Ask Walthers if they are happy
about the sales of their PS 2893, which came out at the same time as the
Athearn PS 2893.

I have no ill will towards Kadee, I love their PS models -- but I am very
disappointed. I may buy a few hoppers, but not many.

Tim O'Connor


Painted wheelsets...

Jack Burgess
 

Last week I did some paint research on Yosemite Valley Railroad caboose 15
on display near Yosemite National Park. The faces of the wheelsets on this
caboose are currently painted black although photos suggest that the
wheelsets were painted boxcar red along with the trucks when the car was in
operation. While I did find evidence of boxcar red on some truck parts such
as the sides of the journals, I didn't find any paint color under the
current black on the wheelsets themselves. I know that wheelsets are not
painted these days in order to make cracks and defects more obvious.
However, I was under the impression that wheelsets were painted (most likely
the same color as the trucks) back in the steam era. Is that a correct
assumption? When did the non-paint practice start?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Industrial photo book

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

I am in the process of cataloging a very interesting book of industrial architecture: INDUSTRIAL LANDSCAPES by Bernd & Hilla Becher (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2002). It consists of 180 plates (actual images 7 X 9 in.) of industrial installations from around the world. The subjects are mines (mostly coal at first glance), steel mills and associated structures, gas works, grain elevators, gravel pits, and what appear to be retorts or kilns. Many of these images were taken in the U.S., and others are similar enough that you could gain ideas for modeling. Yes, a few locomotives and freight cars are shown, but they all post-date our time of interest. The structures themselves, however, are in many cases pure steam-era. This book is a useful resource, especially if you model really heavy industry.

I have seen other books by the Bechers, some in larger format. Their work is superb and worthy of study.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

mjmcguirk@...
 

Shawn makes a good point.

Although I'm looking forward to adding a few of these cars to my roster, I model New England, which saw its share of foreign road hoppers.

So, though I wish the good folks at Kadee all the best with this project, I did find the choice of prototype somewhat curious. I'm also wondering if the market can bear $30-$40 cars that wear what can best be described as "lackluster" paint schemes. One thing that made the PS-1s and the twop-bays a success was the numerous and colorful paint schemes.

And, all the modelers I know off that model Appalachian coal roads on a layout need fleets of hoppers -- they may obtain a few of these detailed Kadee cars, but trying to equip each and every coal train with these cars (in most cases, upgrading, since the older models are out there) would represent a considerable monetary investment.

Sure will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Marty McGuirk


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

From a consumer point of view, it seems that this will be a product
aimed at midwest and eastern modelers. How many roads other
than Santa Fe ran these cars out west? And did the Santa Fe cars
make it into interchange very often - if at all?

As an SP/SSW modeler, I can see buying one or two of these new
models, but that's about it - and I certainly don't need a fleet.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

mjmcguirk@...
 

Dan,

I'm fairly certain (no, make that I'm positive) that Bill had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek when he wrote that. As to whether or not Bill, an L&N fan himself, had anything to do with the choice of prototype, I'd suggest convening a prototype model investigation subcommittee, chaired by Messrs. Thompson and Hendrickson. They can determine wrongdoing and assign punishment, usually in one fell swoop . . . (by the way, the preceeding is a joke . . .)



I think Kadee's choice makes perfect sense. Comparing the existing twin standard cars to the new Kadee model is like comparing, well, the Kadee PS-1 to the Athearn -- uh -- whatever the Athearn boxcar is . . .

There's simply no comparison.

Will the price scare some people off? Of course it will -- that's the nature of free enterprise.

Kadee obviously chose to go with the standard car since it has the greatest variety of roadnames available. And don't underestimate the power of being able to legitimately letter something for Santa Fe -- ask Life-Like about the DL109 some time<g>. If the choice is between ATSF and, say, IC, that is, as they say, something of a "no-brainer." (And I'm not even a Santa Fe modeler, though a small group of them tolerate me from time to time . . .

I for one, am thrilled with the new car since, on my railroad, hopper cars are models -- and not rolling trees as they be on a railroad representing a coal-hauling railroad. So I get to scratch "upgrade and redetail some Athearns to make B&O hoppers off my list, and simply buy the Kadee box, open it up and put the model on the track.

Good deal, and a good day for prototype modeling.

Oh, and a review of the first posts on the old freight cars list when the Kadee PS-1 first came out had all kinds of predictions of gloom and doom, lamenting the fact that this or that version or variation wasn't "the one" -- I think time has shown a number of variants of that car were indeed tooled and produced -- while I have no way of being certain, I wouldn't be surprised to see variations of one kind or another on this model.

At least it ain't another PFE reefer (see comment in para 1 above before being offended or upset)


Marty McGuirk


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

WALTER GAY <waltrail1@...>
 

Clinchfield had a bunch of two bay offset side hoppers. I oiled a many of the journal boxes!!!

Walt

----- Original Message -----
From: lnbill
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 9:37 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Kadee's new offset twin hopper


No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper. Like I said ya'll
road modelers will want many of these, unless they are modeling the
Clinchfield.

Bill Welch






SPONSORED LINKS Train travel Freight car Canada train travel
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Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Dan: The "why" for the C&O, Erie and NKP is easy, they were all part of the
AMC so it makes sense the equipment was similar.

Brian Carlson

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:26:54 -0600, DR Stinson wrote

And in case you have not noticed, "the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP
and ERIE and IC and NP guys" are often left out. Maybe they should
have ordered standard equipment!
That comment was uncalled for. It suggests there was something incorrect
about their choice. Those roads ordered the Alternate Standard
hoppers. It wasn't a LESSER standard or a POORER standard, simply an
alternate. Why is perhaps subject to some study, but I would imaging
there was good reason. Perhaps the alternate was developed because
of the shortcomings of the original.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

 

And in case you have not noticed, "the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP
and ERIE and IC and NP guys" are often left out. Maybe they should
have ordered standard equipment!
That comment was uncalled for. It suggests there was something incorrect
about their choice. Those roads ordered the Alternate Standard hoppers. It
wasn't a LESSER standard or a POORER standard, simply an alternate. Why is
perhaps subject to some study, but I would imaging there was good reason.
Perhaps the alternate was developed because of the shortcomings of the
original.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana

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