Date   

Re: Frisco PS2

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Tim

Tell us about Revere Sugar. B&M had (has) some online customers
who are pretty unusual. New England Milling in Ayer shipped flour
to Prince Spaghetti in Lowell -- about 10 miles!
I've never understood
the economics of this but it continues to this day (even though Prince
changed hands.)
I suppose a splendid way to store inventory without paying a trucker overtime spent waiting for his truck to be loaded and unloaded.

By the way, in 1947, the average haul for Anthracite to Breakers or Washeries nationally was eight miles. In 1947, there was 25,647,594 tons (407,203 carloads) hauled. 11,047,500 of those 25.6 million tons was hauled by the RDG - a major reason why the RDG was the fourth largest RR in the US in tons of cars hauled. They were, however, not the fourth largest in terms of revenue ton miles.

Did those Revere cars go offline?
Don't know.

Tim Gilbert


Upcoming Intermountain models

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Forgive me if these have been discussed before, but . . .

What is the accuracy quotient (or lack thereof) for these models, due out this fall?

<http://www.intermountain-railway.com/flyer45w.jpg>
Both 8000 and 10000 gal cars there . . .

<http://www.intermountain-railway.com/flyer46w.jpg>
Correct for the road names offered?

SGL


Re: UTLX19656 PRM cover photo

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks for this info Richard, - too bad about the tank size.... A question arises from your messages - is it a fair assumption that UTL car series would be cars built to identical designs? If so, these look to be fairly sizable groups.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----


Another B-50-25 question

Tim O'Connor
 

Does anyone know if the UP B-50-25's were wood lined like
a regular box car or did they have some other lining (like a
smooth wall)? I was just thinking when I get around to
painting my brass car, since it has opening doors, I'll need
an interior...

Tim O'Connor


NKP Freight Consist (7-03-57)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Stolen from another list:


This is from the Nickel Plate list and linked with permission.

Many are into consists and this one is fascinating,
especially since over half the traffic is headed for Erie and
DL&W connections. Enjoy!

http://www.nkphts.org/nkppaper/1957consist.html

Note: The numbers in the first column (A) are NKP station
numbers of car origin or interchange.
It's not a small file.

SGL


General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frisco PS2)

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:
.....
Powdered Petroleum Coke or Carbon Black shipped in bulk may be
petroleum
derivatives requiring covered hoppers although maybe not on the
SSW.

Tim Gilbert
Tim -

I do not think petroleum coke was shipped in powdered form - at
least not deliberately! It was a "waste product" to refiners whose
feedstock oil had too much carbon and too little hydrogen in
molecular makeup. Immediately after it was made, it was cut out in
chunks - was not powdery - at the delayed coking unit in a refinery,
and placed into hoppers. It was sold for fuel, but it had high
amounts of heavy metals (vanadium) and sulfur in it, so it could not
be burned in just any combustion device. They just wanted it off
the property. I have only seen it shipped in open hoppers and
stored in piles outside at the destination. It is not particularly
dusty either. I do not think it was ever shipped in covered or
roofed hoppers.

Carbon black is another matter! It is peculiar stuff. There are
many types of carbon black - most is and was used for automobile
tire manufacture, but some (in the germaine time period) was used
for making carbon paper, inks, printing ink, typewriter ribbon,
pigments for paint, etc. Each end use requires a different type of
carbon black - different in its microscopic structure, as determined
by the burner configuration. It is, in general, made from
incomplete combustion of heavy ends with a high aromatic content.
Its manufacture is an art as much as it is a science. The design of
the burners is a closely guarded confidentiality in most companies
that make it. Not all heavy oil is suitable for making carbon
black. The oil is so specific to the type of carbon black being
made that some plants have it delivered in tank cars from remote
locations!

Carbon black, in the pre-1960 time period was shipped in special
privately owned large covered hoppers in VERY captive service.
These cars are recognizable - they are always black(!) and were very
much larger than the usual 29' covered hopper fleet of the pre-1947
era. I also saw some bathtub-shaped cars in this service - they
held two or three large rubber bladders. They were used at the
carbon black plant near Aransas Pass, Texas (still there). They
were singularly ugly cars. I never saw one with empty bladders -
only with them inflated. Carbon black is a very light commodity,
but it has to be kept free of impurities that would mess up its
further processing. There must have been (in the 1950's) at least
25 additives and extenders added to a batch of carbon black and
styrene-butadiene copolymer to make a tire. With the advent of
fiberglas belting, then steel belting, there are more today - like
the surfactants that bond the solid-solid interface of the steel-
rubber to prevent tread separation, etc. Carbon black was shipped
from Texas to Akron, Ohio for tire manufacture, so the cars could be
seen in transit between the these locations.

A.T. Kott


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Tim,

South Louisiana, around Lafayette and New Iberia has produced large quantities of rock salt for many years. International Salt at Avery Island (Yeah, the place Tabasco Suace comes from), and Diamond Crystal Salt at Jefferson Island. The latter suffered a collapse a while back and closed, but believe Avery Island still ships salt on the Louisiana & Delta.

Back in the era of this list, Avery Island was on the T&NO (SP) and Jefferson Island was on the MP. These two were in my PRR sales territory.

Gregg Mahlkov
Florida's Forgotten Coast

----------
Tim O'Connor asked:


Other than lower Michigan, the Kansas City area, and upstate New York, what other areas of the country produce rock salt in great quantities?


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim

Tell us about Revere Sugar. B&M had (has) some online customers
who are pretty unusual. New England Milling in Ayer shipped flour
to Prince Spaghetti in Lowell -- about 10 miles! I've never understood
the economics of this but it continues to this day (even though Prince
changed hands.) Did those Revere cars go offline?

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>
timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Thanks Tim. That's one. As my daughter would say, "Name five".
Well they did it twice. Please consult your higher source whether that
makes two.
Tim Gilbert


Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frico PS2)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

On Behalf Of David Smith

Maybe it's just semantics, but it's not the Frisco itself
that would be doing the shipping - it would be some industry
to whom the car happened to get delivered, perhaps not even
on the Frisco which begs the broader question...
Like "Frico," that is something I noticed when I read my own note coming back to me. Last night,
for some reason, 11:30 seemed to be Very Late.

SGL


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Thanks Tim. That's one. As my daughter would say, "Name five".
Well they did it twice. Please consult your higher source whether that makes two.

Tim Gilbert


Re: cement and other minerals

Tim O'Connor
 

There's an incredible amount of online stuff about mineral production
in the US, including this huge archive

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/EcoNatRes/EcoNatRes-idx?type=turn&entity=EcoNatRes005608670014&isize=XL

The above page shows that in 1960, 10 states had no cement plants
at all, and most production came from Michigan, Pennsylvania, Texas
and California. The 10 states: Alaska, Nevada, North Dakota, Vermont,
Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Delaware
and New Jersey.

Asbestos production held steady at about 1,000,000 tons a year in
the 25 years following WWII... I wonder if it was shipped in covered
hoppers?

Tim O'Connor


Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2006

prr282
 

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2006 is coming up soon--March
24 thru 26, to be exact. Visit our web site for additional
information: www.phillynmra.org/rpmmeet.html

For a timetable, registration form, and additional information, click on
to Download Entire PDF Schedule, Click here
(about the middle of the page)

Please note that the last day to mail your registration is March 15.
Walk in registration will be available at the meet.

Paul Backenstose
Chairman


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Tim O'Connor
 

Other than lower Michigan, the Kansas City area, and upstate
New York, what other areas of the country produce rock salt in
great quantities? And was rock salt as popular for road use in
the 1950's as it became in later years?

Tim O.


Re: General covered hopper questions

Brian Termunde
 

In the early 1950's, the Park Service was building a new entrance road into
the Grand Canyon National Park as well as the State of Arizona rebuilding the
current AZ 64 from near Williams to the Park Entrance. I am guessing that the
cement would have come from the Southwest Portland Cement plant in
Victorville, Calif., unless anyone knows of any closer source? TIA

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: General covered hopper questions

Tim O'Connor
 

Al

A factor that kept specialized cars on home rails was the fixed per
diem rates of that era, which meant that an expensive car earned
no more than an old, cheap car when it went offline. And therefore
the recipient road in effect got a nice expensive car for less than it
was worth! The affect of this was that until these cars become very
common (and also, any cars with roller bearing trucks) the railroads
tried not to send them off home rails if they could avoid it.

Tim O.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "al_brown03" <abrown@fit.edu>
Several threads lately have come to related conclusions, namely that
the movements of specialized cars were much more predictable than
those of general-service boxcars. Whether the specialized cars would
therefore *stay close to home*, though, depends on their service.


Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frisco PS2)

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, what you wrote is true, but don't misquote Shawn. He said
"70 ton cement hopper", which is not the same thing as writing
"70 ton covered hopper". People who have been looking at these
things for a long time (like most STMFC members) know that those
terms together imply a 2 bay covered hopper of around 2000cft or
less.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>

"70-Ton" is not a good descriptive adjective for a covered hopper
particularly in the 1950's.


Re: General covered hopper questions

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote:
For a covered
hopper in cement service, that range was limited because the cost of
transportation, and thus, total cost of the product to the consumer,
escalated the further away from their point of origin - cement being a
low value commodity with widespread cement plants nation wide.

Tim and all:
The effect this can have on a modeled fleet is important. For example
in the 1948 Monon conductor's logs I was surprised at two predominant
home road car types: covered hoppers and side-dump gons. After
reading this thread, it occurs to me that these cars were likely in
captive service. According to the logs and despite their small
numbers, I should see more of them on my layout than Monon boxcars!
(in 1948 there were only 30 covered hoppers and 20 side dump cars vs.
1500 or so boxcars)
I wonder if this is the case on other roads; the boxcars being
swallowed up in the national pool and more specialized cars staying
close to home in captive service?
Mike,

It happened all the time with open top hoppers - ergo, so few eastern hoppers going over Sherman Hill compared to eastern boxcars.

Meanwhile, I don't believe MONON's 20 side dump cars were even listed in the ORER's, and the 30 covered hoppers were on a tether to the cement plants on the MONON in southern Indiana (I assume).

Take Care,

Tim Gilbert


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Tim. That's one. As my daughter would say, "Name five".

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>

Seven of B&M's #5500-5519 series of ACF 1,958cf covered hoppers were
sold to Revere Sugar in Jan-Feb 1956, and another six were sold to
Revere in 1958.
Tim Gilbert


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Michael Weiss wrote:

With all the discussion on coveed hoppers of cement and where they owuld go, does anyone have a rule of thumb for economic distance cement (and other low value bulk commodities) may have been shipped? I thought cement plants were not evenly distributed around the country, but were located near limesstone quarries since shipping limestone to a cement plant was really not desirable as roughly half the weight of the limestone is lost in the kiln, given off as carbon dioxide.
Mike,

If you had a map of all the cement plants in the US, you might be able to judge which plants were competitive and which plants were not for specific geographic areas of interest. Cement hauled quite a bit longer than cement hauled in the east may be competitive because of the lack of plants in the area while, in the east, there was less distance between plants.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:


Schuyler

If you're going to use it on the club (West Virginia/Virginia) then
a Frisco cement hopper would be an oddity. Gypsum, or bauxite,
silica sand, or some additive for a refinery would be good. I like
the cracking catalyst idea someone mentioned, since these often
come from ancient fossilized rock and are quite valuable, so they
can be shipped a long way -- and the east coast (Delaware, PA,
NJ) is littered with refineries of all kinds. That gives you a long
haul from one stage to the other!

I don't know of any of these small 2 bay cars used for granulated
sugar. The smallest sugar covered hoppers I know of in the 50's
would be single bay airslides, which were used for starch, sugar
and flour.
Tim,

Seven of B&M's #5500-5519 series of ACF 1,958cf covered hoppers were sold to Revere Sugar in Jan-Feb 1956, and another six were sold to Revere in 1958.

Tim Gilbert

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