Date   

Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frisco PS2)

Shawn Beckert
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:

Compared to boxcars, covered hoppers were difficult to clean;
hence, railroad-owned covered hoppers were usually returned to
their point of origin empty while most empty boxcars were
reloaded before they returned to home rails. Accordingly, railroad-
owned covered hoppers were more tethered to their home road
than boxcars.
That does not answer the question as to how far from point of
origin they ranged. That depends upon the commodity carried.
For a covered hopper in cement service, that range was limited
because the cost of transportation, and thus, total cost of the
product to the consumer, escalated the further away from their
point of origin - cement being a low value commodity with
widespread cement plants nation wide.
In the early 1960's ( a tad beyond our time frame, but the point is
still relevant) Steve Patterson took a photo of Cotton Belt's "Motor
Special" arriving at the yard in Tyler, Texas - deep in SSW territory.
Right behind the train is an AT&SF 70-ton cement hopper, sitting
on one of the leads into the La Gloria oil refinery. I'd have to look at
a map, but IIRC the Santa Fe didn't get that close to the Cotton Belt
in that area - although they did cross the SSW at grade further down
at MacGregor.

Beyond giving me an excuse to buy one of Kadee's AT&SF PS-2's,
I've often wondered just what was in that hopper. Cement? Maybe,
although the SSW certainly had sources of cement online. In those
days, did cracking catalyst move in 70-ton hoppers? That would be
one commodity that the refinery would need, for sure. Without having
access to the appropriate records, I guess we'll never know...

Shawn Beckert


Plano vs. Kadee Running boards

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Shawn Beckert wrote:
I think it's a question of how badly Garth wants them <g>. Plano
*does* offer a Morton running board package, part #190, for 40'
boxcars. Failing that, there are sheets of Morton pattern material
available, parts #203 (stainless steel) and #204 (brass). Check
out the web page at:

http://www.planomodelproducts.com/
And a very nice one it is. I've just uploaded six photos comparing the
Plano and Kadee running boards to the Photos section. (Folder
named "Plano vs. Kadee roof walks.) The car with the Morton is an old
C&BT 12-panel that I cut down to 10' 0" IH but never finished. The
Kadee part is about 2 1/2 scale inches (0.030") longer than the Plano,
you can decide for yourself if it's suitable for the Kadee box car.

Tom Madden


Re: Morton Running boards

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Shawn,

Yes, Plano running boards can be made to fit. I've used a few of them, and didn't like them because they ended up wavey and were difficult to glue in place without filling in the holes (yes, I know it can be done, but I'm pretty ham fisted).

I like the Kadee running boards much more, and use them in kitbashes and for replacing some cast plastic "wooden" running boards when the prototype calls for metal. This may sound like heresy, but I keep the mounting pins. They allow me to fix the running boards to the underside of the roof with clear silicone sealant.

As Sam said, Kadee might consider tooling Morton running boards if there was a large demand, and told me I could forward our correspondence to the group to spark some interest. If anyone else besides me wants them, now is a good time to let him know through this group.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

Garth,

Plano makes Morton running boards, supposedly to fit the
Intermountain PFE reefers. Have you looked to see if they
would work on the Kadee PS-1's?

Shawn Beckert


Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frico PS2)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

David Smith wrote:

Maybe it's just semantics, but it's not the Frisco itself that would be
doing the shipping - it would be some industry to whom the car happened
to get delivered, perhaps not even on the Frisco which begs the broader
question...

Did covered hoppers, like boxcars, travel widely or did they stay closer
to home?
Compared to boxcars, covered hoppers were difficult to clean; hence, railroad-owned covered hoppers were usually returned to their point of origin empty while most empty boxcars were reloaded before they returned to home rails. Accordingly, railroad-owned covered hoppers were more tethered to their home road than boxcars.

That does not answer the question as to how far from point of origin they ranged. That depends upon the commodity carried. For a covered hopper in cement service, that range was limited because the cost of transportation, and thus, total cost of the product to the consumer, escalated the further away from their point of origin - cement being a low value commodity with widespread cement plants nation wide.

Grain hoppers might be a different story, but this would be a question for the Baby Boomers (1960's) Group. I suppose that covered hoppers could be wide ranging although less than boxcars because of the special tariffs & rules that related to grain movement.


Also, were covered hoppers ever used on an LCL basis or were they
restricted to serving large industries?
Not LCL. I remember seeing in the 1970's covered hoppers full of cement being unloaded at the team track in Westport CT. The cement was pumped from the freight car to a dry cement truck of a contractor and immediately hauled away.


The D&H shipped a lot of cement in covered hoppers from online plants,
but it's not clear if any would have ended up on the Chateauguay branch,
which (except for a mine and pig iron furnace) served primarily small
towns.
Any roads built in the area? The cement would be then augmented with a low cost aggregate.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Morton Running boards

Shawn Beckert
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

One complication is that reefers don't have lateral running
boards, though of course they could be cut from an additional
running board.

I think it's a question of how badly Garth wants them <g>. Plano
*does* offer a Morton running board package, part #190, for 40'
boxcars. Failing that, there are sheets of Morton pattern material
available, parts #203 (stainless steel) and #204 (brass). Check
out the web page at:

http://www.planomodelproducts.com/


Shawn Beckert


Re: harriman codes

Tim O'Connor
 

BI -- for insulated box cars as you say
BF -- for "flush" door non-insulated cars
BC -- for "combination" door cars (plug + slider)
CH -- covered hoppers

And I think at least one example where O- was applied
to an "ore" car, rather than to a tank car.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: jaley <jaley@pcocd2.intel.com>
At some point (after 1955, so I really don't care!), the UP added classes
"BI" and "BF"; I believe the first was for Insulated Box cars; I forget
what BF stood for.

Regards,
-Jeff


Re: Morton Running boards

Tim O'Connor
 

Plano makes a 40 ft box car Morton running board w/
laterals and Morton brake step. These fit any 40 ft car
including PS-1's.

Tim O.


Re: Morton Running boards

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Plano makes Morton running boards, supposedly to fit the
Intermountain PFE reefers. Have you looked to see if they
would work on the Kadee PS-1's?
One complication is that reefers don't have lateral running boards, though of course they could be cut from an additional running board.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ORER

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
I found it interesting that in at least one instance a series of new
cars was delivered to the M&StL not in numerical order. I would have
expected the cars to be numbered at the factory beginning with the
lowest number on the first car completed and so on. The delivery
notes filed in the AFE show the delivery of a few cars per day and
gives the date and time the cars arrived on M&StL property, the
delivering road and the car numbers.
Having looked at decades of SP car production records, I would say this is more common than not. Long runs within an order will be numbered in chronological sequence, but other groups of cars, produced later, may have earlier number series. It is rare in what I've seen for an entire order to be numbered exactly chronologically from start to finish.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Morton Running boards

Shawn Beckert
 

Garth,

Plano makes Morton running boards, supposedly to fit the
Intermountain PFE reefers. Have you looked to see if they
would work on the Kadee PS-1's?

Shawn Beckert


[Fwd: Morton Running boards

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Frico PS2
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:58:13 -0800
From: <mail@kadee.com>
Reply-To: <mail@kadee.com>
Organization: Kadee Quality Products
To: Garth Groff <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
References: <0IVQ002V1Q47QSFH@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <003d01c64200$e9c9fd80$7f00a8c0@sam01> <440DB6B7.9050808@virginia.edu>



Garth,

A Morton running board would certainly be nice, but at this point we
probably will not do one, although it is one of the few compromises we have
to make on some of our cars. However, we do change our minds quite often so
anything is possible. Perhaps, if we received a few thousand requests for a
Morton running board we'd consider moving it up our priority project list.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
To: <mail@kadee.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Frico PS2


Sam,

Excuse me if I've asked this before, but do you have any plans to ever
tool up a Morton running board for your PS-1 boxcars? AFAIK, all your
otherwise very accurate Western Pacific boxcars should have this type.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: ORER

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Bob Lucas wrote:
For new car acquistions,
the entire series was shown even though not all cars were
physically
on hand.
Yes, the entire NUMBER series was shown, but the number of
cars
in the right-hand column would reflect ACTUAL arrivals. There are
plenty of examples where the first appearance of a number series
just
has a row of dots on the right, presumably because no cars had yet
been
delivered. Then succeeding ORER issues, especially in the days when
it
was monthly, would show the group gradually increasing to full size.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
I found it interesting that in at least one instance a series of new
cars was delivered to the M&StL not in numerical order. I would have
expected the cars to be numbered at the factory beginning with the
lowest number on the first car completed and so on. The delivery
notes filed in the AFE show the delivery of a few cars per day and
gives the date and time the cars arrived on M&StL property, the
delivering road and the car numbers. Most new M&StL cars were
delivered at Peoria so there were a variety of roads that could
handle cars into Peoria for delivery to the M&StL.

Gene Green


Re: "Standards" and AAR voting procedures

Charlie Vlk
 

Richard-
I know the Q didn't create any freight car designs that it built but they were so active
in the industry that they may have influenced truck design, draft gear, etc..
You are right about them being ....er.. conservative. This is a long and proud history!
I wish I had made copies, but once I was at the Newberry looking for something else
and I came across a correspondence file regarding an experimental steel tube boxcar
that the Q management leased and later purchased...very much over the objections of
their Master Mechanic, who promoted the superiority of Oak as the proper material for
freight cars!!! Besides the literary style of the prose of business communications of the
19th century, the problems of introducing new technology into a system make fascinating
reading!!!
Charlie Vlk


Re: harriman codes

jaley <jaley@...>
 

At some point (after 1955, so I really don't care!), the UP added classes
"BI" and "BF"; I believe the first was for Insulated Box cars; I forget
what BF stood for.

Regards,

-Jeff

On Mar 7, 10:27am, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] harriman codes

Allen Rueter wrote

Would B2 be considered a Harriman Standard code?
As far as I know the only railroad that used B2 to designate a
freight car class was the N&W. The Harriman era Common Standard
classification system was

<category> - <nominal tonnage rating> - <group>

A- auto cars
B- box cars (including insulated cars)
C- caboose cars
F- flat cars
G- gondola cars
H- hopper cars (including covered hoppers)
O- oil (tank) cars
R- refrigerator cars
S- stock cars
W- work cars (maintenance of way)

There were also C.S. classifications for passenger cars and locomotives.
UP diverged from this system in the 1950's but SP never did, and even
applied it to Cotton Belt equipment in the 1960's. SP dropped the A-
category after 1955 for new cars; auto racks got F- classifications.
UP continued to use the A- classification through the 1970's for at
least 16 classes of 100 ton box cars (e.g. A-100-16).

Tim O'Connor
--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: ORER

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Lucas wrote:
For new car acquistions,
the entire series was shown even though not all cars were physically
on hand.
Yes, the entire NUMBER series was shown, but the number of cars in the right-hand column would reflect ACTUAL arrivals. There are plenty of examples where the first appearance of a number series just has a row of dots on the right, presumably because no cars had yet been delivered. Then succeeding ORER issues, especially in the days when it was monthly, would show the group gradually increasing to full size.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frico PS2)

David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

Maybe it's just semantics, but it's not the Frisco itself that would be
doing the shipping - it would be some industry to whom the car happened
to get delivered, perhaps not even on the Frisco which begs the broader
question...

Did covered hoppers, like boxcars, travel widely or did they stay closer
to home?

Also, were covered hoppers ever used on an LCL basis or were they
restricted to serving large industries?

The D&H shipped a lot of cement in covered hoppers from online plants,
but it's not clear if any would have ended up on the Chateauguay branch,
which (except for a mine and pig iron furnace) served primarily small
towns.

Dave Smith



I have a Kadee Frisco PS2 (No. 84084, if that matters).
What would
the Frisco have been shipping in
these cars?

SGL


Re: Frico PS2

SamClarke
 

Hello Mr. Larrabee, and group,

We have quite a few photos of these hoppers and the majority (but
certainly not all) have signs of heavy cement loading. The 84084 was done
from a builders photo depicting a factory new car so we do not know its'
particular loading usage. We have a photo of 84050 with heavy cement
spillage that has stenciling "When Empty Return to Dewey Rocky Mountain
Cement Company, Tulsa, OK." Many other cement cars do not have "return"
stenciling or it's covered with cement dust.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Frico PS2


I have a Kadee Frisco PS2 (No. 84084, if that matters). What would the
Frisco have been shipping in
these cars?

SGL




Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: harriman codes

Tim O'Connor
 

Allen Rueter wrote

Would B2 be considered a Harriman Standard code?
As far as I know the only railroad that used B2 to designate a
freight car class was the N&W. The Harriman era Common Standard
classification system was

<category> - <nominal tonnage rating> - <group>

A- auto cars
B- box cars (including insulated cars)
C- caboose cars
F- flat cars
G- gondola cars
H- hopper cars (including covered hoppers)
O- oil (tank) cars
R- refrigerator cars
S- stock cars
W- work cars (maintenance of way)

There were also C.S. classifications for passenger cars and locomotives.
UP diverged from this system in the 1950's but SP never did, and even
applied it to Cotton Belt equipment in the 1960's. SP dropped the A-
category after 1955 for new cars; auto racks got F- classifications.
UP continued to use the A- classification through the 1970's for at
least 16 classes of 100 ton box cars (e.g. A-100-16).

Tim O'Connor


Re: ORER

Bob Lucas
 

When comparing actual records of installations and retirements for
the AC&Y, a smaller Class I, I have found the ORER's to be accurate,
both freight car dimensions and ORER dates. The devil is in the
details, though, at least for date accountability. The AFE
(Authorization for Expenditure) project completion date, which was
how railroads accounted for their property for ICC valuation
purposes, appears to be the usual basis. For new car acquistions,
the entire series was shown even though not all cars were physically
on hand. AFE retirement completion dates do not mean freight cars
were scrapped. Some cars were simply removed from revenue service.
Scrapped does not mean what it says either. Cars sold for scrap
were sometimes whitelined, held until a "funeral train" could be
assembled. Though equipment had left the AC&Y property and there
may be a final weight ticket in the file, scrap cars could be found
at I.A. Barnett in Barberton or Luntz in Canton years later. What
was most telling was the carnage that took place during the steam
era. Many series averaged 1% loss annually due to accidents,
failures and derailments. Cars were still shown in ORER's until
finally disposition was made, sometimes a year or more later.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

From: "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@...>
Subject: RE: Boxcar Utilization - Definitions
ljack70117@... wrote:
I have a question. Where did the ORER get the information the
printed?

From each railroad.
======================

Although Dave's response is right, I'd like nto expand on it a
bit.

The ORER was (and still is) a tariff. It was published on
behalf of all of the railroads and was referenced in most other
railroad tariffs. It was the official reference for any tariff item
that referenced car type, dimensions, capacity, car number, etc.

The railroads were motivated to keep it up to date for cars
added because for tariff purposes a car did not exist if it wasn't
in the RER. Cars in the RER did not necessarily exist. When a
railroad got new cars, it would publish the whole series even if it
might be some months before all were delivered. Similarly, there
was no particular reason for a railroad to rush to delete cars from
the register after they were taken out of service, except for the
cost of the space that they paid for in the RER. So if a railroad
had an entry for a hundred cars and all but a few were scrapped,
there was no benefit from updating the RER until all were gone and
the line for that series could be deleted.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478



Re: Frico PS2

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

George A. Walls wrote:

Probably grain, Corn, Wheat or Rice. Might have been Cement or Sand.

George A. Walls



I have a Kadee Frisco PS2 (No. 84084, if that matters). What would
the Frisco have been shipping in
these cars?

SGL
George,

SLSF #84084's cubic capacity was 2,003' which was suitable for heavy density commodities such as cement and sugar. Generally, grain would be loaded into covered hoppers with 70 tons nominal capacities having around 3,000' cubic capacity.

Tim Gilbert

133021 - 133040 of 185022