Date   

Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Ben Hom wrote

You know, quite a few of us sniffed "Who's going to pay $30 for a
HO scale PS-1?" in 1997, and Kadee ended up making us look pretty
damned stupid.
Not me. I was a happy camper with the PS-1, because I knew the
shortcomings of the IM cars (and especially IM paint & lettering).

You're right - not everyone is going to pay $40 for this car. But
there are many who not only will buy one car, but multiple cars to
fill out their coal trains. (And on top of that, you can offer it
in Santa Fe!)
I have only one thing to say: ERTL. :-)

Tim


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

From: <mjmcguirk@cox.net>

Although I'm looking forward to adding a few of these cars to my roster,
I model New England, which saw its share of foreign road hoppers.
Yeah, like ERIE, PRR, N&W, C&O, NKP, LV. Hmmm, where are the so-called
"standard" hoppers? Not too many L&N or NC&StL hoppers made it up to
New England. Or Sherman Hill.

I'm also wondering if the market can bear $30-$40 cars that wear what
can best be described as "lackluster" paint schemes.
I would like to point out that Kadee's PS-1 had only one real competitor
when it was released -- Intermountain -- and IRC had produced mostly
PS-1 kits up to that point (not RTR), many of which were bogus.

Also, the PS-1 is a box car, with attractive paint schemes, and everybody
needs them who models the 1950's or later. And the collectors like pretty
box cars.

The PS-2 has NOT been as big a success -- How do I know that? Because
the latest releases are not selling out nearly as fast. Many of the box cars
sold out in less than a month, even 3 or 4 years after the first ones came
out. The first PS-2's sold out quickly, but many later ones are not sold out.

Moreover, Kadee is now going HEAD-TO-HEAD with the biggest gun in
the hobby -- Athearn. If Athearn wants to, they can upgrade their hoppers
with wire grabs and sell them for $20, or they can just go paint-for-paint
scheme with Kadee and sell them for $10. Ask Walthers if they are happy
about the sales of their PS 2893, which came out at the same time as the
Athearn PS 2893.

I have no ill will towards Kadee, I love their PS models -- but I am very
disappointed. I may buy a few hoppers, but not many.

Tim O'Connor


Painted wheelsets...

Jack Burgess
 

Last week I did some paint research on Yosemite Valley Railroad caboose 15
on display near Yosemite National Park. The faces of the wheelsets on this
caboose are currently painted black although photos suggest that the
wheelsets were painted boxcar red along with the trucks when the car was in
operation. While I did find evidence of boxcar red on some truck parts such
as the sides of the journals, I didn't find any paint color under the
current black on the wheelsets themselves. I know that wheelsets are not
painted these days in order to make cracks and defects more obvious.
However, I was under the impression that wheelsets were painted (most likely
the same color as the trucks) back in the steam era. Is that a correct
assumption? When did the non-paint practice start?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Industrial photo book

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

I am in the process of cataloging a very interesting book of industrial architecture: INDUSTRIAL LANDSCAPES by Bernd & Hilla Becher (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2002). It consists of 180 plates (actual images 7 X 9 in.) of industrial installations from around the world. The subjects are mines (mostly coal at first glance), steel mills and associated structures, gas works, grain elevators, gravel pits, and what appear to be retorts or kilns. Many of these images were taken in the U.S., and others are similar enough that you could gain ideas for modeling. Yes, a few locomotives and freight cars are shown, but they all post-date our time of interest. The structures themselves, however, are in many cases pure steam-era. This book is a useful resource, especially if you model really heavy industry.

I have seen other books by the Bechers, some in larger format. Their work is superb and worthy of study.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff



Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

mjmcguirk@...
 

Shawn makes a good point.

Although I'm looking forward to adding a few of these cars to my roster, I model New England, which saw its share of foreign road hoppers.

So, though I wish the good folks at Kadee all the best with this project, I did find the choice of prototype somewhat curious. I'm also wondering if the market can bear $30-$40 cars that wear what can best be described as "lackluster" paint schemes. One thing that made the PS-1s and the twop-bays a success was the numerous and colorful paint schemes.

And, all the modelers I know off that model Appalachian coal roads on a layout need fleets of hoppers -- they may obtain a few of these detailed Kadee cars, but trying to equip each and every coal train with these cars (in most cases, upgrading, since the older models are out there) would represent a considerable monetary investment.

Sure will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Marty McGuirk


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

From a consumer point of view, it seems that this will be a product
aimed at midwest and eastern modelers. How many roads other
than Santa Fe ran these cars out west? And did the Santa Fe cars
make it into interchange very often - if at all?

As an SP/SSW modeler, I can see buying one or two of these new
models, but that's about it - and I certainly don't need a fleet.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

mjmcguirk@...
 

Dan,

I'm fairly certain (no, make that I'm positive) that Bill had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek when he wrote that. As to whether or not Bill, an L&N fan himself, had anything to do with the choice of prototype, I'd suggest convening a prototype model investigation subcommittee, chaired by Messrs. Thompson and Hendrickson. They can determine wrongdoing and assign punishment, usually in one fell swoop . . . (by the way, the preceeding is a joke . . .)



I think Kadee's choice makes perfect sense. Comparing the existing twin standard cars to the new Kadee model is like comparing, well, the Kadee PS-1 to the Athearn -- uh -- whatever the Athearn boxcar is . . .

There's simply no comparison.

Will the price scare some people off? Of course it will -- that's the nature of free enterprise.

Kadee obviously chose to go with the standard car since it has the greatest variety of roadnames available. And don't underestimate the power of being able to legitimately letter something for Santa Fe -- ask Life-Like about the DL109 some time<g>. If the choice is between ATSF and, say, IC, that is, as they say, something of a "no-brainer." (And I'm not even a Santa Fe modeler, though a small group of them tolerate me from time to time . . .

I for one, am thrilled with the new car since, on my railroad, hopper cars are models -- and not rolling trees as they be on a railroad representing a coal-hauling railroad. So I get to scratch "upgrade and redetail some Athearns to make B&O hoppers off my list, and simply buy the Kadee box, open it up and put the model on the track.

Good deal, and a good day for prototype modeling.

Oh, and a review of the first posts on the old freight cars list when the Kadee PS-1 first came out had all kinds of predictions of gloom and doom, lamenting the fact that this or that version or variation wasn't "the one" -- I think time has shown a number of variants of that car were indeed tooled and produced -- while I have no way of being certain, I wouldn't be surprised to see variations of one kind or another on this model.

At least it ain't another PFE reefer (see comment in para 1 above before being offended or upset)


Marty McGuirk


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

WALTER GAY <waltrail1@...>
 

Clinchfield had a bunch of two bay offset side hoppers. I oiled a many of the journal boxes!!!

Walt

----- Original Message -----
From: lnbill
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 9:37 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Kadee's new offset twin hopper


No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper. Like I said ya'll
road modelers will want many of these, unless they are modeling the
Clinchfield.

Bill Welch






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Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Dan: The "why" for the C&O, Erie and NKP is easy, they were all part of the
AMC so it makes sense the equipment was similar.

Brian Carlson

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:26:54 -0600, DR Stinson wrote

And in case you have not noticed, "the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP
and ERIE and IC and NP guys" are often left out. Maybe they should
have ordered standard equipment!
That comment was uncalled for. It suggests there was something incorrect
about their choice. Those roads ordered the Alternate Standard
hoppers. It wasn't a LESSER standard or a POORER standard, simply an
alternate. Why is perhaps subject to some study, but I would imaging
there was good reason. Perhaps the alternate was developed because
of the shortcomings of the original.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

 

And in case you have not noticed, "the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP
and ERIE and IC and NP guys" are often left out. Maybe they should
have ordered standard equipment!
That comment was uncalled for. It suggests there was something incorrect
about their choice. Those roads ordered the Alternate Standard hoppers. It
wasn't a LESSER standard or a POORER standard, simply an alternate. Why is
perhaps subject to some study, but I would imaging there was good reason.
Perhaps the alternate was developed because of the shortcomings of the
original.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bill Welch writes:


No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper.
Did I read that right? The "Standard"? To paraphrase a comment I made a few yrs ago...do we need another F3 diesel? [ in response to some new F unit model ]. So...we still don't have the Alternate Standard but now have another Standard?

Actually, I think I understand Kadee's strategy. They SEEM to want to do cars for which they can do quite a large variety of RRs. Obviously, the Alt Standard is not that great. The new car will no doubt leave other "Standard" versions far behind in the dust. And, as the real Byron said, "If winter comes...so, perhaps an Alt Standard won't be far behind.

Speaking of Kadee, these hoppers will need weathering. I know this has been discussed long ago...but, what are suggested weathering techniques for Kadee cars?

Mike Brock


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

 

"The STANDARD twin???
I can't help but be disappointed as well. There are already two models of
the AAR standard car out there, but nobody has bothered with the Alternate
Standard. As Tim pointed out, there are quite a few railroads that had them
and the market's wide open for them, perhaps moreso than the original
Standard. Sure, we can wait for a long time. We already have. But by then,
will the market (or us) still be there? None of us is getting any younger ya
know.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Resin Casting Question

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

I've only made castings from masters twice, so take this with a
moderate dose of salt! One car was based on drawings that were
Xeroxed from a Mainline Modeler, and I built the masters right on
the copies. When the castings were done, they could be layed right
on top of the drawing, and matched just fine, not exhibiting any
shrinkage.
A couple of things that I found out:

1) I never thought ahead enough to worry about shrinkage. If I
had, I'd probably not have compensated for it anyway, since I cut-
and-pasted some Tichy parts to make the masters for the ends. If I
had oversized the sides and roof, they wouldn't have matched the
ends. As it was, I couldn't discern any shrinkage in the finished
parts.
2) I used the blue silicone from Micro-Mark. It cured just fine
in my kitchen, but it was about 65 degrees in there: the Urethane
resin for the actual parts wouldn't kick at that temp. I warmed up
the room to 70 deg and the resin worked. Heating the room up above
the temp where the molds were cast may have compensated for the
shrinkage.
3) I should've read the directions: "Flat top" your castings
when you pour them. I just poured them open-air, and had a slightly
convex backside on every casting. In order for them to assemble
properly, I had to sand down the backside until it was flat. Lots of
work to sand them: that urethane is tough!
4) Also, I got lazy and only made a master for one half of the
roof. I was making multiple castings anyway, right? Well, when you
flip a "right side" end for end to make a "left side", the
corrugations and seam caps were misaligned.

Regards,
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:

Gene - I was away so can only now offer my two cents. Choosing a
rubber is all a matter of trade-offs. As Tom mentioned shrinkage,
tear strength, etc. all must be taken into consideration. I use a
rubber that doesn't shrink and sets up in 16 hours. The downside is
that it gets fewer uses than other, more popular compounds. The
best way to avoid the shrinkage problem is to cast all of the parts
in one master mold, the masters for which have been sized to
assemble properly. - Al


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I will certainly buy my share. Trying to upgrade Athearn and Altas
examples with separate grabs, brake rigging, brake lines, slope sheet
supports. My time is worth something too. I upgraded two Athearn
models for NC&StL several years ago and took a hiatus.

And in case you have not noticed, "the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP
and ERIE and IC and NP guys" are often left out. Maybe they should
have ordered standard equipment!

Bill Welch


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Bill,

The STANDARD twin??? :-( Who's going to pay $40 for that? Phooey.

My club has about 200 AAR standard twins -- mostly Athearn. I
don't think I could talk them into upgrading. Plus we're slowly
putting Reboxx wheels on them -- something that has to be done
to Kadee cars too.

It's the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP and ERIE and IC and NP guys
who are left out in the cold again... But I guess a few L&N fans
will be happy.

Tim


No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the
New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next
release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper. Like I said
ya'll
road modelers will want many of these, unless they are modeling
the
Clinchfield.

Bill Welch


Freight Cars of the Ann Arbor RR, Was Re: Seeking excerpts from obscure equipment diagram books

Rob Adams
 

Marty;

You're absolutely right, I did neglect to specify book's title. Sorry about that. It is "/Freight Cars of the Ann Arbor Railroad /1947-1985" by Craig Wilson

Definitely worth acquiring. My copy is well-worn after 16 years and now punched and in a 3-ring binder.

It is available through the Ann Arbor Railroad Technical & Historical Association.

AARRT&HA

P.O. Box 472

Laingsburg, MI 48848-0472

Interested modelers may also wish to request an index of back issues of the AARRT&HA publications, as there is a good deal of AA freight car modeling info available there. Craig Wilson served as the AARRT&HA's publications editor for several years and I took over for him from 1993-2001. Craig authored several articles primarily with a late 50's through mid 70's focus, and I complimented that with material about some of the earlier cars. References to some of the publications are listed on the Steam Freight Cars web site.

I'm presently working to complete an article for Ted Culotta on the AA single and double-sheathed box cars that were the mainstays of AA's fleet through most of the steam era. It will be a well-illustrated and comprehensive coverage of some very interesting equipment that roamed all over the U.S.

Best regards, Rob

mjmcguirk@cox.net wrote:


Rob,

I won't thank you for your apology since you did nothing to offend me -- but I know it was heart felt.

I will thank you for the "meat" of your apology, which had a lot of interesting details on AA cars.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is exactly which book is "Craig's" ??? I might want to obtain a copy for my library.

Marty McGuirk





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--
Rob Adams
Wellman, IA
steamera@netins.net
Modeling CB&Q, CRI&P and Wabash operations in Keokuk, IA,
the Wabash Bluffs, IL to Keokuk branch, and the CB&Q's Keokuk & Western branch, circa 1938
<http://www.KeokukandWesternRR.com>


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"The STANDARD twin??? :-( Who's going to pay $40 for that? Phooey."

You know, quite a few of us sniffed "Who's going to pay $30 for a HO
scale PS-1?" in 1997, and Kadee ended up making us look pretty
damned stupid.

You're right - not everyone is going to pay $40 for this car. But
there are many who not only will buy one car, but multiple cars to
fill out their coal trains. (And on top of that, you can offer it
in Santa Fe!)

The same "HMS DREADNOUGHT" analogy that I made regarding their PS-1
model applies here - put something on the market that is so far
superior to what exists today, market it properly, and customers
will flock to you.


"It's the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP and ERIE and IC and NP guys
who are left out in the cold again... But I guess a few L&N fans
will be happy."

All in good time, Tim, all in good time. Surely you've got other
projects to fill your time?


Ben Hom


Re: Resin Casting Question

 

Would the rest of you prefer I take this off-line.
Gene -
I'm finding this of some value. Thank you!

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

mjmcguirk@cox.net wrote:
Great . . . a continuation of what is a regular occurance this week
-- my previous message was meant to go only to Bill, not the entire
list.
Not to worry Marty. No one here minds when you spill the beans. 8-)

Dave Nelson


Re: Kadee's new offset twin hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill,

The STANDARD twin??? :-( Who's going to pay $40 for that? Phooey.

My club has about 200 AAR standard twins -- mostly Athearn. I
don't think I could talk them into upgrading. Plus we're slowly
putting Reboxx wheels on them -- something that has to be done
to Kadee cars too.

It's the Clinchfield and C&O and NKP and ERIE and IC and NP guys
who are left out in the cold again... But I guess a few L&N fans
will be happy.

Tim

No information on Kadee's website this morning, but I noted in the New
Product section of the latest RMC the news that Kadee's next release
will the AAR standard two-bay offset twin hopper. Like I said ya'll
road modelers will want many of these, unless they are modeling the
Clinchfield.

Bill Welch


CNJ, LV steam era freight car diagrams

ed_mines
 

Vic Roseman offers a book of CNJ freight car diagrams that he drew.
Much of the data must have come from official railroad documents. The
book does not show all cars but shows several cars I did not know
about which were gone by 1940. Vic can be contacted through the CNJ
Yahoo group.

I can't locate my copy at the moment.

I have/had photocopies of LV steam era freight cars but misplaced it
15-20 years ago. My original source sold the originals and I have not
been able to find anther set to copy. I have been touch with a Mr.
Stilwell who wrote an LV book with Chuck Yungkurth. From what I can
tell there are few LV steam enthusuasts.

Ed

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