(No subject)

Chris Casper <clcasper@...>

I too would like to add my thanks to both Gene Green and Doug Harding for
the time and effort in the creation and the sharing of this information.
It is greatly appreciated.

Chris Casper

UTLX Type 21 tanks from P2k.

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>

If the gentleman from Europe is still interested in a P2k Type 21 in UTLX
paint. Please contact me off list since I have an extra.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Re: Underframes 101- Thanks

Roger Parry <uncleroger@...>

Let me add my thanks, what a valuable resource of info! Thank you so much for sharing!

On Apr 1, 2006, at 12:14 PM, Bill Kelly wrote:

Doug, thank you very much for the time and effort, I appreciate it.
Thank you Gene for making this information available in the first place.

Bill Kelly

you wrote:
The Freight Car Underbody Details handout by Gene Green, the lamb
pdf version has been posted at:

This is the actual document, not the OCR scan found in the group
files. You will see the pages as Gene actually prepared them.

Thanks to Jerry Glow for the suggestion to use this site, which
permits sharing of large files.

Doug Harding
Iowa Central Railroad

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Code 88 wheels?

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>

--- In, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Oh...I don't think so. We know the Code 88T wheel will perform
satisfactorily in track built to NMRA S 3.2. Why that is true is partly due
to the fact that the wheels are often not in their worst case scenario and,
in fact, probably never are when traveling the diverging track....

And why would you say that? It's only the LEADING wheelsets that are crowding the outside rail of the curve. The trailing wheelset tends to crowd the inner rail. I know it's counter-intuitive , but think about what happens when a steam era freight car truck enters a curve; inertia tries to keep the car going straight, and pushes the leading wheel to the outer rail, skewing it slightly to being truly radial to the curve. The second axle is held parallel to the first by the truck, and so is also skewed. The friction of the center plate resists the truck's turning, so that second wheelset is crowding the inner rail of the curve. I know it's hard to see on a model, but it's quite easy to see on prototype equipment, especially when intently watching non-standard wheels when trying to jockey them through AAR frogs.

I mentioned my observances of "compromise" wheels during my tenure at a railway museum previously. We also had a considerable number of streetcars with "tram" wheels. Streetcar systems that had no interchange with the steam railroads had no need to follow steam railroad standards, and typically used narrow little wheels which didn't overhang the rail head, with narrow flanges to allow for narrower flangeways, which were less likely to capture the wheels of horse drawn vehicles they shared the street with. Chicago had a huge streetcar network that used maybe the narrowest of wheel standards; the wheels were only 3 1/2" wide, with a 5/8" deep flange that ran in a 7/8" wide flangeway. While the cars the museum restored for operation were all re-wheeled with AAR standard wheels (thank goodness for Trailer Train; they kept 28" wheels available) cars awaiting restoration occasionally had to be moved to new storage buildings, and we occasionally used a self propelled crane-on-flatcar for maintenance work.

Anytime one of these cars had to go through a turnout it was inched along with someone on the ground watching the wheels. It was just exactly like trying to run P:87 wheels on NMRA S-3 track, in fact the proportions were just about the same. Not only would these narrow wheels drop in the frogs, they also would pick the frog point, as the guard rail, set to AAR dimensions, was nowhere near the back of the opposite wheel.

And that brings me to my point. Typically, it was the leading wheel that tried to pick the frog point on the diverging route through a turnout, as the car was forcing that wheel against the outside of the curve. However, it was the trailing wheel of each truck that was most prone to dropping in the frog, as it was tight to the opposite rail, in the least favorable position in relation to the frog. The solution was interesting; after entering the curved switch rails, if the car was jockeyed back and forth several times, the truck would adjust itself to the direction of travel better, and would cause fewer problems at the frog. Once through the frog, the cars were fine. We used the crane to set out and pick up rail from a half mile of track we re-laid one summer, and never had a derailment, but getting through three or four turnouts was a pain.

I've always been fascinated by wheel to rail relationships ever since, and I'm surprised at the general lack of knowledge of this most important aspect of our hobby.

Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

Gauge narrowing (was Code 88 wheels)

Larry Buell

In a previous post it was stated that a certain manufacturer of
turnouts indicated that he did what the "prototype" did when
producing his product; he narrowed the turnout side. While his
model products may serve, I believe that he was misinformed; I know
of not a single 12" = 1' railroad that would intentionally allow
that sort of practice.
In my 22 year RR career, I have laid countless turnouts (No. 4-1/2
to No. 24) in yards and on main tracks and both sides of the
turnouts were gauged properly. The NYCT-MTA did accidently lay a
crossover that way in 2000; could not get the turnout to reverse.
Only time we were allowed to look at the problem was after midnight;
lost a lot of sleep for 1/2" narrow gauge.

During a rail relay once, I did lay the main track (no turnouts were
involved) 1/8" narrow. I don't think the effort was worth it; the
rail just wore out faster.

FWIW, I started at Oklahoma City on an engineering field party; my
home Division was the old Santa Fe Middle Division HQ at Newton,
Kansas. Later, I was Roadmaster in HQ in Topeka, Chicago and

Re: Underframes 101

Douglas Harding <d.harding@...>

A few members have contacted me directly about getting a copy of the 19 mb
version of Gene's handout, indicating you had cable, or would take a CD or
photocopy. Unfortunately, while I have high speed cable access, my provider
does not permit sending email attachments of that size. Thanks to Jerry
Glow, I learned about the Rapidshare website, where I was able to upload the
large file, and you can download the pdf document. I ask that you use the
link I posted earlier, as I would prefer to not be in the business of making
CD's or photocopies or multiple trips to the post office.

And while I appreciate the words of thanks, don't thank me, thank Gene. He
did the research and original preparation. I will work with Gene to see that
he gets the text, etc. back on his computer. Perhaps at some point he and/or
I can get it into a smaller size file, making it easier to share.

I do like the idea of a database of significant handouts, such as those Gene
has produced over the years. Any of us who have done significant research on
a given subject have often created an extensive (and valuable) handout. Some
of this valuable material has been published, or plans are to publish in the
future. Sometimes copyright issues are involved, particular when using
images. And sometimes, as with Gene, a computer hic-up has destroyed the
original source, making it difficult if not impossible to make available
once again. Gene's generosity in giving us permission to share his document
made it possible to post the Underbody Detail Handout. Not everyone is
willing to give such permission and we must respect their wishes, or
restrictions. Yet a database would help those seeking information to know
who once provided that information, or one possible printed source if it can
be found.

Doug Harding
Iowa Central Railroad

Re: Code 88 wheels - gage widening

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>

--- In, "woodyp48" <woodyp48@...> wrote:

.... larry j made a hard statement msg#53185 "FYI the prototype
RRs narrow the gauge from 4 foot 8 1/2 inchs to 4
foot 8 inches through the curved leg of all switches." i believe that
this is completely incorrect. the C&O drawing i use for a #8 turnout
call gor a widening of the guage by 1/4" (.005" in 1/48 scale and
easily measured) on the curved leg though the frog area of the
turnout. also the AREA calls for "if the wheelbase of the equipment
used requires wider guage for the switch alaignment or curvature
shown, the lead and alaignment of curved closure rails shall be moved
out the necessary amount,...." i assume that large drivered long rigid
wheel base steamers would dictate the increase as well as the
turnout's radii. so different rr standards would apply for the
increase in guage.

The 1939 RE&M Cyc. presents this information as tables in two places. In "AREA Tables of Practical Turnout leads..." where the statement quoted above appears, the table lists the curvature in degrees of the different number turnouts. For instance:

No. 6 = 21 deg. 19 min. 49 sec.
No. 8 = 12 - 12 - 24
No. 10 = 7 - 22 - 22
No. 12 = 5 - 8 - 44

In the section under guard rails, Table No.1 is sub titled "Showing by figures the relation of the rigid wheelbase of the locomotive to the gage of track". For a five coupled locomotive (sorry Mike, no six coupled loco shown) with a rigid wheelbase of 19'-0" here are the recommended track gages for various degrees of curvature:

6 deg. 4' - 8 1/2"
8 deg. 4' - 8 3/4"
10 deg. 4' - 9"
12 deg. 4' - 9 1/8"
14 deg. 4' - 9 3/8"
16 deg. 4' - 9 1/2"
18 deg. not listed.

There are no gages shown wider than 4' - 9 1/2", but I'm sure I've seen a reference somewhere that went to 4' - 10"

Of course, once big steam was gone, that was the end of the reason for this amount of gage widening.

Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

ADMIN: Asking for information

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

Jim Mischke writes in response to asking for info about frt car diagrams:

Don't all speak up at once.

I have had no responses offering assistance from my recent request
for diagrams, on or off list.

Are there no source material freight car diagrams for Ann Arbor, Lake
Terminal, Maine Central, Lehigh and New England, Lehigh Valley, CNJ,
Rock Island, B&M, B&LE, P&LE, PRR X-43 boxcars, Reading or

Or are people on this list close with their data?
Once again I see a complaint about the lack of response to a request for information. The original request occurred on 3/27, 4 days prior to Jim's complaint.

First, note the STMFC rule:

"However, it
should also be noted that the group is not to be considered necessarily as a
library with its members prepared to respond to questions or acting as
sources for information. Such responses are entirely voluntary and at no
time is any group member obligated to respond to a request for information."

The point is that members respond when they have the time AND information. Members also have lives to lead. I was not even able to read your message until today. So...complaining about the lack of response is out of line. Members will no doubt respond when and IF they have the info...when they get to it.

I might add that, since a member might well never see an original request for info, there's nothing wrong with asking again.

Mike Brock

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention


In a message dated 4/1/06 7:06:34 PM, writes:

Carrying a concealed weapon and across state lines, that is s federal 
offense I believe.

I doubt it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Underframes 101

George Hollwedel <georgeloop1338@...>

I just made 47 downloads

Anthony Thompson <> wrote: Douglas Harding wrote:
The Freight Car Underbody Details handout by Gene Green, the pdf
version has been posted at:
Thanks to Doug for preparing this scan, and of course Gene
Green's work in compiling it in the first place. It will be interesting
to monitor the number of times it's downloaded. I noted when doing so
that there had been 22 previous downloads. Maybe in a few days Doug or
someone could update us on this number, which may have some correlation
with the number of "serious" (or deranged) members of this list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
Publishers of books on railroad history

Yahoo! Groups Links

George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates.

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention

Greg Martin

In a message dated 4/1/2006 10:40:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

I don't recall he said anything about threats with the weapon. As long
it was in his brief case what crime was committed?


Carrying a concealed weapon and across state lines, that is s federal
offense I believe.

BUt if the guy was too stupid to press charges then I would have to say got
the job done.

Greg Martin

ADMIN: Discussion of Concealed weapons=Not!!

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

Tim O'Connor writes:

I need a drink. Or a moderator. Or both.
I can't help much with the drink but I can help with the moderator part...and will terminate this thread.

First, however, for the record, Florida does have a concealed weapons law and, yes, your friendly group moderator,owner does have one. He has a large cannon in his car at all times. Fortunately, he is friendly.

Now, having said that, that's also the last word on the of the few perks that the owner gets is the last word. Make no mistake...moderation awaits anyone violating this decree...we aren't going to debate weaponry on the STMFC...period.

Mike Brock

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>

--- In, cobrapsl@... wrote:

Denny-"the guy" is named Zimmerman. I forget his first name.
Jordan Zimmerman.

Tom "not JZ" Madden

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention

Tim O'Connor

Larry, are you threatening to threaten someone who was not
threatening you but may or may not actually have threatened
someone else twenty years ago?

I need a drink. Or a moderator. Or both.

Please try it on me and see where you end up.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention

Tim O'Connor

Paul Lyons wrote

I flew to Denver when he still had a shop with a 38 in my briefcase ...
Those were the good old days, huh? When you could pack your heat with you,
across state lines, and nobody the wiser. Gets me choked up just thinkin'
about what we've lost... snif!

(I rode to Timonium once with someone who disclosed he had a .357 in the
glove box on the driver's side... just in case he had trouble with a toll
booth operator I guess.)

Tim O'

Re: Digest Number 3070

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>

Larry writes-
>I would lay odds you do not back your trains as fast as he was
running his backwards.
Mike replies-

Fast? Certainly not.
Well, as the cringing operator at the time, and a person who has been 'really' uncomfortable operating other people's trains on other people's railroads, the reverse move of this beautiful string of brass cars was indeed performed at a snails' pace. Also, if I had derailed the train, Mike (who is bigger than I am) .....well...

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, California

Re: Digest Number 3071


In a message dated 4/1/2006 3:12:11 PM Central Standard Time, writes:

The Denver DA never did
nail him, but the Postal authorities did for mail fraud. The best thay could
tell is he screwed people out of about 250 thousand dollars and he was
to about two years in a minumum security Federal prison. He did serve time,
but is out of prison and I have no idea what happened to him.

I believe he opned a hobby shop in Colorado Springs, Suncoast or Sunbird
Hobbies. I knew him well, but was never a victim of his antics. I really liked
Hi-Country Brass when it first opened. Bought my first brass locomotive
there in 1978 or so.

Jerry Michels

Re: Ancient Denver NMRA Convention


Does not have to be threats with a weapon. In Florida it would have been an extra 10 years just to have it in your pocket or case. The way I read his email there was some implied threats there and that is against the law. I do not approve of what the thief did but the person must have felt threatened if he gave up a model.
Please try it on me and see where you end up.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

On Apr 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, wrote:

In a message dated 4/1/06 10:32:33 AM, writes:

you have no right to go after him with a weapon.
I don't recall he said anything about threats with the weapon. As long as
it was in his brief case what crime was committed?


Pennsy X29 express boxcars


Thanks to all who helped on my question. Ben, see, I can get it right!

Jerry Michels

Re: Digest Number 3068


In a message dated 3/31/2006 4:51:12 PM Central Standard Time, writes:

There are a couple of versions with different ends,
and you have the option of using different doors. I have three, and I model
the Santa Fe!


Well, I model the Missouri Pacific, and it was unusual for the Colorado,
Texas or Missouri Eagles not to have Pennsy head end equipment, along with NYC
and REA.


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