Date   

Re: RP Cyc 12

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Wrong!!!!! RP CYC Vol. 13 is virtually finished as I speak (I mean type). We'll probably
bring it out right after the holidays. We do not want to fight the crowd at the Post Office.
Take my word for it, mailing out hundreds of 1 pound books at one time is the worst part
of our endeavor. And near the Christmas holiday? No way. Vol. 13 will be out as soon as
the Post Office gets back to normal early 2006. Come to think of it, the worst part of our
endeavor is actually unloading over a ton of books from the back of a tractor trailer and
pushing them up Ed's steep driveway in the summer heat and humidity in St. Louis. Now
that I think of it, we need to charge more for the darn things. And to you guys who send
us $19.95 well after the cut-off date with back-dated checks just to save 5 bucks, I say
nuts! Go buy Mainline Modeler! (-:}

Thanks for the kind words John!!!!!!

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Boren <mccjbcmd@m...> wrote:

Pat et al,

Just received your latest issue in the mail, and based on a quick
glance-through it's another winner! I now have no excuse not to superdetail
my track scale operations among other treats you covered in-depth.

My only complaint is I guess I have to wait another 12 months for my next
prototype fix.

John Boren


Re: Couplers

Tim O'Connor
 

I totally agree with you Richard. If you have a layout with track more
than 24" from the aisle then you can't use Sergents. Heck at my club
they even use 48" long tongs to reach out and pick up rolling stock
rather than climb over or under to reach them by hand. Which is one
reason my stuff isn't there anymore...

Having operated shelf, and spaghetti layouts, I must say the giant
layouts may be prettier, but shelf style is far more enjoyable (to me).

Tim O.

While I understand the appeal of the Sergent coupler for many list
subscribers, it lacks one feature that is absolutely essential for many
of us, given the nature of our layouts: it can't be remotely
uncoupled. So all the discussion about how to manipulate the @#$%&*
things is pointless to me; I have to be able to couple and uncouple
cars at a distance without touching them. The only scale-size couplers
that do that reliably are Kadees.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Sergent Couplers

Tim O'Connor
 

Larry, I appreciate that prototype couplers do close from
jostling and vibration etc. But gravity acts on the mass of
the coupler and the friction of scale model knuckle scales
as the inverse square of the size -- in other words the
scale friction is 87 times more effective than it is on the
prototype. This means you have to hit the car pretty darn
hard to jostle the knuckle closed on the other end. The
Sergent knuckles will no doubt sometimes close but I
think "Bull Heads" will be less common in HO scale. And
the frequency may even be equal to the number of times
we now have to deal with missing Kadee springs or
failed McHenry's or Accumates stuck open.

Tim O.


Re: Sergent Couplers

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Patrick Wider wrote:

Tim,

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be open 100% of
the time? Maybe not.

I have a car in a siding - it just happens to have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call
it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves, who knows? I built it that way (so it's an egg). I approach
it with a switcher. The switcher's facing coupler is also closed. Call it bad luck. Someone
accidentally pushed it closed. Sh-t happens. How often? Maybe not very. Who knows?

It's
still a valid question.
Not really

Pat Wider

One more thing: I have never known a switchman/brakeman to walk by a closed knuckle and not open. On the prototype the knuckle on the engine will ALWAYS be OPEN when there is a crew member on the foot board. (woops no foot boards to day) but this list is before 1960. Big grin
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.


Couplers

Richard Hendrickson
 

While I understand the appeal of the Sergent coupler for many list subscribers, it lacks one feature that is absolutely essential for many of us, given the nature of our layouts: it can't be remotely uncoupled. So all the discussion about how to manipulate the @#$%&* things is pointless to me; I have to be able to couple and uncouple cars at a distance without touching them. The only scale-size couplers that do that reliably are Kadees.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: interesting COSX tank car in MR

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Montford Switzer wrote:

Richard:

Please help me and possibly others understand how a single compartment
tank car can be converted to multiple compartments. You refer to a
diaphragm, the wall between the compartments, which I know as a
"bulkhead" with the ends being "heads." Bulkheads could be both single
and double (air space between compartments).

Now, how did they do it? The word diaphragm throws me. Did they
assemble the bulkhead inside the barrel after putting it in through the
dome opening in pieces (doubtful)? Or did they make the conversion by
removing one of the heads (ends of the barrel) and slide the bulkhead
(partition or diaphragm) in the end? I suspect this was the method.
And were rivets were used for both the new bulkheads and the new dome?
A diaphragm was an internal bulkhead, which looked exactly like a tank end because that's what it was. They were fitted in pairs with air space in between (and drain holes at the bottom of the air spaces so that it would be apparent if any of the compartments leaked inside the tank shell). They were riveted in place just like a tank end and, as you infer, the conversion was carried out by removing and replacing one or both tank ends. For a shop equipped to work on tanks, such a conversion was a relatively simple operation.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Sergent Couplers

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Tim and list,

On the prototype, the knuckle will tend to close if the car is moved. The
force of gravity pulls on the pin and the vibration of movement will cause
it to drop, closing the knuckle. The conductor or trainman then has to pull
the cut lever and yank the knuckle open.

Since I model in N scale and use Micro-Trains and Accumate couplers, I don't
know if this would happen to the Sergent coupler or not. ;<D

Gregg Mahlkov
I have NEVER seen one close this way in all my time on the RRs. The lock block is not heavy enough to pull a knuckle closed. The force of gravity can not pull the lock down until the knuckle is fully closed. There is a tail on the knuckle that holds the block up and prevents it falling.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?


Re: Sergent Couplers

Tim O'Connor
 

Pat, in that circumstance, you wave your magic wand and open
each knuckle with that same device (which doubles as a pick), as
I said before. Is this practical? Only if the layout is designed so
that the location is accessible. I could ask a similar question about
coupling Kadees on a curve. (If you do switching inside tunnels,
I admit Kadees will usually work better in that case.)

Remember the car was spotted at the siding. When it was spotted
it had to be uncoupled. The uncoupling process opened the knuckle.
It stays open 99% of the time (on our layouts gravity is unable to
close the knuckle.) The other times you wave the wand. This doesn't
seem complicated to me. What am I missing?

I think the only functional difference between the Sergent and the
Reboxx coupler will be that the Reboxx will have a sprung knuckle
with an optional locking pin. I think the intent was to have the best
of both worlds. But since the Reboxx isn't available I'm guessing it
was harder to accomplish technically than was thought.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not converting to Sergents. But it's simply a
compatibility question. The Reboxx is intended to be compatible with
Kadee, but then I question whether it will be as prototypical looking
as the Sergent. If Sergents came in scale draft gear, I might actually
be inclined to convert.

Tim O'Connor

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be
open 100% of the time? Maybe not. I have a car in a siding - it just happens to
have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves,
who knows?


Re: Sergent Couplers

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:42 PM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.
Maybe the one down in the track was not the one that was opened when the other car was cut off. So it remained closed. Maybe the same case for the car you now want to couple to it. We had a lot of "Bull Heads" on the prototype RRs. Also maybe the car down in the track was kicked to fast into the track. When it hit the knuckle closed from the force for the hit. There is a lot of reasons for a "Bull Head".
When We switched the E/B and W/B leads in Emporia Ks the car that rolled away from us always had it's knuckle closed. We always pilled the pin on the car we were hanging onto. Except when that pin would not pull and we reached over and pulled the other one.
So on your prototype model RR you must choose. Prototype looks and operation or Kadee drawbars.
BTW on the RRs I worked on there were no couplers. They were drawbars.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


Re: interesting COSX tank car in MR

Montford Switzer <ZOE@...>
 

Richard:

Please help me and possibly others understand how a single compartment
tank car can be converted to multiple compartments. You refer to a
diaphragm, the wall between the compartments, which I know as a
"bulkhead" with the ends being "heads." Bulkheads could be both single
and double (air space between compartments).

Now, how did they do it? The word diaphragm throws me. Did they
assemble the bulkhead inside the barrel after putting it in through the
dome opening in pieces (doubtful)? Or did they make the conversion by
removing one of the heads (ends of the barrel) and slide the bulkhead
(partition or diaphragm) in the end? I suspect this was the method.
And were rivets were used for both the new bulkheads and the new dome?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but if anyone will know the
answer(s) you are the guy.

Mont Switzer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 3:27 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] interesting COSX tank car in MR

On Oct 6, 2005, at 7:59 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

The lead photo for an article called "Pipeline on Rails" in this
month's
Model Railroader (page 56, November 2005) shows a string of tank cars
at
the Mid-Continent refinery in Tulsa OK in 1942. At the near end is
COSX
2269. The neat thing about this car is that it is a 2 dome car that
appears to have been made from a single dome car with a second dome
grafted onto one end - making 2 compartments with what appears to be
very
different volumes. The image is from the Library of Congress
(LC-USW3-010050) but it doesn't appear to be on-line.
Bruce, I have that photo, along with numerous others that were taken in
1942 to document the railroads' efforts to transport petroleum products
for the war effort after the Germans effectively cut off tanker traffic
along the Atlantic coast. Collectively, they are full of good images
and information for modelers of the mid- to late '40s. That MR used
only one of the photos is typical of their once-over-lightly approach
to prototype modeling; sure wouldn't want to overwhelm the train set
bozos with too much information.

Two compartment tank cars that were converted from single compartment
cars by adding internal diaphragms and a smaller dome at one end only
weren't all that rare; I have a number of photos of them. It was even
more common for single compartment cars to be converted into three
compartment cars by adding diaphragms and domes at both ends while
leaving the original, larger capacity center dome in place.

Richard Hendrickson





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RP Cyc 12

John Boren <mccjbcmd@...>
 

Pat et al,

Just received your latest issue in the mail, and based on a quick
glance-through it's another winner! I now have no excuse not to superdetail
my track scale operations among other treats you covered in-depth.

My only complaint is I guess I have to wait another 12 months for my next
prototype fix.

John Boren


Re: Sergent Couplers

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 7, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Tangerine Flyer wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
Never!!! You reach across and lift the one on the other drawbar. Then when that car is gone you stop and reach in side the one that would not open and lift the lock block with your fingers and pull the knuckle open. Then you keep on switching. Let someone down the line worry about getting it fixed.
Never in all my time on the RRs have I ever seen a knuckle that would not open if you could get the lock block up.

break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Thanks Dave,

I've never had a truck derail due to lack of equalization. I've spent lots of time perfecting
my track alignment (on a layout now existing in my fading memory). Most HO "sprung"
trucks right out of the blister pack don't work as intended, don't look right, and don't even
have brake shoes. They don't belong on an otherwise accurate scale model. Period.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tangerine Flyer <tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

Coming back to your earlier point about sprung and
equalized trucks I'll agree that at our scale sizes
there's negligible compression of the springs and I
would also like to see a different size/material to
make the springs more visually realistic regardless of
their functionality. However, the trucks are quite
capable to provide equalization, just not out of the
package.

It's a simple matter to disassemble the trucks,
carefully clean the flash off of the castings, and
reassemble. This was one of the very first jobs my
father gave me to begin my transition from tinplate to
scale modeling at around 7 years old. He set up a
work area for me with a hard tempered masonite work
surface held in place with ordinary masking tape. The
trucks were deemed acceptable when they could roll
diagonally across that 1/8 inch height differential
*AND* all four wheels maintained contact with their
respective surface. At the time it gave this
youngster quite a sense of accomplishment and
confidence.

Obviosusly, that extreme of equalization is not
necessary, but the flexibility of equalization is
nonetheless invaluable. If the wheels are in constant
contact with the rail they're far less likely to
derail. And, in the case of a locomotive and DCC, the
benefit of improved contact due to equalization
results in more reliable operation.

Cheers,

David Jobe
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch"
<SCSBusch@W...> wrote:

Please Mr. Sam At Kadee,

Yes, I vote for the 78s in bulk, too, as well as :

A USRA STYLE ANDREWS FREIGHT CAR TRUCK

- sprung, of course. Please, please, please ---
Why sprung? The toy cars aren't heavy enough to
compress the springs anyway and they
don't equalize so why bother? They also don't roll as
well as they could. I hate HO
"sprung" trucks. And while I'm at it Mr. Kadee, please
replace those spider-web springs
with something more substantial. I hate looking
through the spring groups and seeing the
daylight (layout lighting?) coming through. It's
blinding. Jack Spencer rolls his own springs
out of heavier wire and they look great! Other people
use brass loco driver springs. In
days of old when knights were bold and Central Valley
made trucks with concentric
wheels, their truck springs looked better as well.
Phosphor bronze I think. Why can't Kadee
make a similar improvement to the appearance of their
trucks? Continuous improvement -
that keeps companies in business.

Sorry but this a sore spot with me.

Pat Wider





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Re: Sergent Couplers

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Tim,

I can ask the same question. How did they get open? Will one or the other be open 100% of
the time? Maybe not.

I have a car in a siding - it just happens to have a closed coupler. Like the prototype. Call
it fate, gremlins, bad tea leaves, who knows? I built it that way (so it's an egg). I approach
it with a switcher. The switcher's facing coupler is also closed. Call it bad luck. Someone
accidentally pushed it closed. Sh-t happens. How often? Maybe not very. Who knows? It's
still a valid question.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.


Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.


Re: interesting COSX tank car in MR

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 6, 2005, at 7:59 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

The lead photo for an article called "Pipeline on Rails" in this month's
Model Railroader (page 56, November 2005) shows a string of tank cars at
the Mid-Continent refinery in Tulsa OK in 1942. At the near end is COSX
2269. The neat thing about this car is that it is a 2 dome car that
appears to have been made from a single dome car with a second dome
grafted onto one end - making 2 compartments with what appears to be very
different volumes. The image is from the Library of Congress
(LC-USW3-010050) but it doesn't appear to be on-line.
Bruce, I have that photo, along with numerous others that were taken in 1942 to document the railroads' efforts to transport petroleum products for the war effort after the Germans effectively cut off tanker traffic along the Atlantic coast. Collectively, they are full of good images and information for modelers of the mid- to late '40s. That MR used only one of the photos is typical of their once-over-lightly approach to prototype modeling; sure wouldn't want to overwhelm the train set bozos with too much information.

Two compartment tank cars that were converted from single compartment cars by adding internal diaphragms and a smaller dome at one end only weren't all that rare; I have a number of photos of them. It was even more common for single compartment cars to be converted into three compartment cars by adding diaphragms and domes at both ends while leaving the original, larger capacity center dome in place.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Sergent Couplers

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Hi Dave,

Watch that overhead! It's high voltage isn't it?

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tangerine Flyer <tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

That's certainly a valid concern and makes more sense.
It's still a bit easier as the wand and pick are one
unit. A small stiff wire is fastened to the magnetic
end so the magnet would be above the coupler and the
wire could extend down into the coupler. Then you
need only twist it to open the knuckle making it a one
hand operation. As for avoiding the long reach and
snagging the wires on scale telephone poles that may
mean planning ahead for a particular move to remote
locations. It's certainly a problem I can appreciate
as I will have to avoid live overhead! But, at least
"we don't need no stinkin' diaphragms"...

David Jobe
Illinois Traction System

--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some
distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to
allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one
hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while
not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tangerine Flyer
<tangerine_flyer@s...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@s...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider
magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they
work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas M. Olsen"
<tmolsen@U...> wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled
Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how
they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark
reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were
covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole
like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made.
After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with
other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to
align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay
Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork
edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a
distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be
able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to
raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the
steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no
steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion
regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them
to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and
accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars,
as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they
go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most
fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of
trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is
a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use
them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems
are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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---------------------------------


Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size.............

Arnold van Heyst
 

A short comment from the Netherlands,

Kadee #12/58/78/2100 are the best working, and the best looking couplers for U.S. models.
For instance:
I've replaced the MäTrix U.P. cabooses standaard couplers with #78 incl. airhose, etc.
Same for the MäTrix Big Boy:
I've modified de "58" box, and add the coupler in it, and glued it in the tenderframe.
Most of my cars are fitted wit 58's.
It looks so much better with it, especially with the Proto 2000 8.000/10.000 gallon cars.
For me?
No Sergent, but Kadee scalecouplers.
Oh..............i'm about the replace the old Kadee boxcars with #2100 retrofit.

Regards,
Arnold van Heyst
Netherlands.





Why sprung? The toy cars aren't heavy enough to compress the springs anyway and they
don't equalize so why bother? They also don't roll as well as they could. I hate HO
"sprung" trucks. And while I'm at it Mr. Kadee, please replace those spider-web springs
with something more substantial. I hate looking through the spring groups and seeing the
daylight (layout lighting?) coming through. It's blinding. Jack Spencer rolls his own springs
out of heavier wire and they look great! Other people use brass loco driver springs. In
days of old when knights were bold and Central Valley made trucks with concentric
wheels, their truck springs looked better as well. Phosphor bronze I think. Why can't Kadee
make a similar improvement to the appearance of their trucks? Continuous improvement -
that keeps companies in business.

Sorry but this a sore spot with me.

Pat Wider





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:33:43 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor wrote:


22200-22449 were AF-3's. 9100-9149 were A-2's. 10000-10199 were AF's.
Pat Wider

I show 10000-10999 being AF-2's. So you're saying 10000-10199 were not
the same as 10200-10999? I know the latter are AF-2's from photos.

Did you mean to write A-2 (instead of AF-2)? Was there an A-1 class ?

Are you saying chronological order is AF AF-1 AF-2 AF-3 A-2 AF-4 AF-5 ?
There are no typos in my message.

AF-2's were numbered 11700-11999 and 22000-22199.

A-1's were numbered 9011-9060.

Pat Wider





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:37:24 -0400
From: "S. Busch"
Subject: Re: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

Pat Wider!

When I cut my teeth in model railroading, American Flyer had chrome plated
journal boxes on sheet steel sideframe trucks. The first time I ever saw
real looking truck they were HO sprung Varneys or Athearns or something.
Heck, even those ugly looking Silver Streak trucks looked good.

So, there you go. I have never quite recovered, and still prefer real
springs.

P.S. - love your research work and articles---

Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Wider"

To:
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch" wrote:

Please Mr. Sam At Kadee,

Yes, I vote for the 78s in bulk, too, as well as :

A USRA STYLE ANDREWS FREIGHT CAR TRUCK

- sprung, of course. Please, please, please ---
Why sprung? The toy cars aren't heavy enough to compress the springs
anyway and they
don't equalize so why bother? They also don't roll as well as they could.
I hate HO
"sprung" trucks. And while I'm at it Mr. Kadee, please replace those
spider-web springs
with something more substantial. I hate looking through the spring groups
and seeing the
daylight (layout lighting?) coming through. It's blinding. Jack Spencer
rolls his own springs
out of heavier wire and they look great! Other people use brass loco
driver springs. In
days of old when knights were bold and Central Valley made trucks with
concentric
wheels, their truck springs looked better as well. Phosphor bronze I
think. Why can't Kadee
make a similar improvement to the appearance of their trucks? Continuous
improvement -
that keeps companies in business.

Sorry but this a sore spot with me.

Pat Wider


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:45:05 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

That's fine - then just make them look like real springs! And thanks for the kind words!

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch" wrote:

Pat Wider!

When I cut my teeth in model railroading, American Flyer had chrome plated
journal boxes on sheet steel sideframe trucks. The first time I ever saw
real looking truck they were HO sprung Varneys or Athearns or something.
Heck, even those ugly looking Silver Streak trucks looked good.

So, there you go. I have never quite recovered, and still prefer real
springs.

P.S. - love your research work and articles---

Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Wider"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch" wrote:

Please Mr. Sam At Kadee,

Yes, I vote for the 78s in bulk, too, as well as :

A USRA STYLE ANDREWS FREIGHT CAR TRUCK

- sprung, of course. Please, please, please ---
Why sprung? The toy cars aren't heavy enough to compress the springs
anyway and they
don't equalize so why bother? They also don't roll as well as they could.
I hate HO
"sprung" trucks. And while I'm at it Mr. Kadee, please replace those
spider-web springs
with something more substantial. I hate looking through the spring groups
and seeing the
daylight (layout lighting?) coming through. It's blinding. Jack Spencer
rolls his own springs
out of heavier wire and they look great! Other people use brass loco
driver springs. In
days of old when knights were bold and Central Valley made trucks with
concentric
wheels, their truck springs looked better as well. Phosphor bronze I
think. Why can't Kadee
make a similar improvement to the appearance of their trucks? Continuous
improvement -
that keeps companies in business.

Sorry but this a sore spot with me.

Pat Wider





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:50:29 +0000
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

Pat, I was at Michael's (a craft store) the other day and noticed
they have a wide selection of small gage wire on spools that may
be perfect for making non-functional replacement springs. I got
some for making baled-wire loads for gondolas. They stock it in
the bead jewelry section.

I agree I hate the truck springs and think the Kadees roll badly,
but they're also great looking trucks! I toss the Kadee wheels
and replace with Reboxx, which improves them considerably in
both rolling quality and appearance. Step 2 will be to replace
the springs.

Tim O'Connor




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:45:04 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Sergent Couplers

Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work? Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a "scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas M. Olsen" wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype. They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump, staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising (or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung) of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:51:12 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?

I forgot to mention that AF-1's were numbered 11000-11699. FYI: I'm doing an article on
the SAL turtle-back cars for RP CYC Vol. 13.

Pat Wider

AF-2's were numbered 11700-11999 and 22000-22199.

A-1's were numbered 9011-9060.

Pat Wider





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:08:05 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch" wrote:

When I cut my teeth in model railroading, American Flyer had chrome plated
journal boxes on sheet steel sideframe trucks.
My first experience was with nickel-plated rails - three of them with 27" diameter curves.

The first time I ever saw
real looking truck they were HO sprung Varneys or Athearns or something.
Me too!

I have never quite recovered, and still prefer real springs.
I'd prefer real prototype springs but I don't think they'd fit plus they'd collapse my
benchwork. (-:}

Pat Wider







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tangerine Flyer
Subject: Re: Re: Sergent Couplers

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider
wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas M. Olsen"
wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:12:07 +0000
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re: Sergent Couplers

http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Details/Couplers/Default.aspx

Pat, from what I understand, the magnet raises the ball and a
pick of some kind moves the knuckle. (Everyone at the club uses
a pick to uncouple Kadees, because the magnets either don't work
or they're not located in the right spot, so I don't see this as much
of a change.)

Once the knuckle is open, it stays open, until another coupler comes
along and closes it, just like the prototype. So except for the diaphragm
issue (which goes away if one only uses Sergents on FREIGHT cars)
I don't see much practical difference compared to Kadees. (And most
layouts don't have hump yards either.)

Sergents are probably what I'll put in the front coupler position of my
brass steam engines, which have no provision for Kadees or any other
working front coupler.

Tim O.



If I understand you correctly, after application of the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work? Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a "scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!! Pat Wider

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:28:10 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Sergent Couplers

Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tangerine Flyer wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider
wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas M. Olsen"
wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made. After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars, as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:31:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Pickett
Subject: Re: Re: Sergent Couplers (was coupler debate)

Hmmmm. Why couldn't you replace the ball with a polarized magnet? That way you could hold a wand polarized in the opposite direction UNDER the coupler and it would repel and lift the ball. You could also have an electromagnet under the track also polarized oppositely. The coupler might have to be modified slightly so the ball wouldn't simply turn over. Perhaps replace it with a slightly cylindrical magnet.

Jim Pickett

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:
Yes, but the electromagnet would have to be OVER the track.

The Sergent coupler has a tiny metal ball inside that acts like
the locking pin on the prototype. It has to move upwards to
unlock the knuckle.


Jim Pickett


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:40:27 -0000
From: "Patrick Wider"

Subject: Re: Sergent Couplers

Tim,

Sergents sure look good. If I were in O-scale the problem would be solved. They have
couplers that have operating lift bars. And the cars may actually compress the truck
springs while still allowing them to equalize. The cars can even rock back and forth just
like the real thing. HO-scale - My God, what have I done????

(At least I'm not in N-scale where a nat can derail a scale 200-ton locomotive). (-:}

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:

http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Details/Couplers/Default.aspx

Pat, from what I understand, the magnet raises the ball and a
pick of some kind moves the knuckle. (Everyone at the club uses
a pick to uncouple Kadees, because the magnets either don't work
or they're not located in the right spot, so I don't see this as much
of a change.)

Once the knuckle is open, it stays open, until another coupler comes
along and closes it, just like the prototype. So except for the diaphragm
issue (which goes away if one only uses Sergents on FREIGHT cars)
I don't see much practical difference compared to Kadees. (And most
layouts don't have hump yards either.)

Sergents are probably what I'll put in the front coupler position of my
brass steam engines, which have no provision for Kadees or any other
working front coupler.

Tim O.





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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:45:47 -0400
From: "Andrew Baird"
Subject: Re: Re: Sergent Couplers

Good day!

I use the sergent couplers in S Scale and with the small wand, when you hold
it over the coupler, it opens automatically, so you don't have to use the
pic.
As for using them with the passenger cars, how often does the passenger
train on the layout get switched out?

I also have no problems with the sgt and kd #5s coupling up and running
together.

Building another layout and everything will be within reach. For me having
less space, modeling Sn42 (CN Newfoundland Canada) these couplers actually
slow things down. Instead of racing back and forth coupling and coupling,
now you may have to stop short and open a knuckle. This is try in real life
as well as I am a CPR Conductor, and 7 out of 10 times the knuckles are
closed. I can't count how many times also in a day the knuckles get boxed,
then you have to stretch your train, open the knuckle and back onto your
train, hosebags, air etc. It all takes time. So for myself, I don't mind the
bit of work it takes sometimes to make joints in the yards etc.

Andrew




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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:57:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tangerine Flyer
Subject: Re: Re: Sergent Couplers

Hi Pat,

That's certainly a valid concern and makes more sense.
It's still a bit easier as the wand and pick are one
unit. A small stiff wire is fastened to the magnetic
end so the magnet would be above the coupler and the
wire could extend down into the coupler. Then you
need only twist it to open the knuckle making it a one
hand operation. As for avoiding the long reach and
snagging the wires on scale telephone poles that may
mean planning ahead for a particular move to remote
locations. It's certainly a problem I can appreciate
as I will have to avoid live overhead! But, at least
"we don't need no stinkin' diaphragms"...

David Jobe
Illinois Traction System

--- Patrick Wider
wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Dave,

I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some
distance, with their knuckles still closed. So,
like the prototype, I'd have to open one of them to
allow them to couple as opposed to
uncoupling them. So I have to hold the wand with one
hand and hold the dentil pick with
the other while leaning over my layout. All the while
not snagging the wires on the scale
telephone poles.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tangerine Flyer
wrote:

Hi Pat,

Not quite... Like a prototype coupler, when the
locking mechanism is lifted the knuckle is free to
open when the engineer pulls away. Also like a
prototype coupler, you *may* run into a recalcitrant
knuckle that doesn't want to open freely. So, to
continue our prototype analogy, do what you must to
break the joint and send it to the RIP track for
maintenance.

Best regards,

David E. Jobe, Sr.
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider
wrote:


---------------------------------
Tom,

If I understand you correctly, after application of
the magnetic wand held above the
coupler or a surplus super-conducting collider
magnet
held even higher, one still has to
get access to the Sergent coupler's knuckle with a
Howard Hughes' finger nail, dentil pick,
or bent paper clip to open it? Is this how they
work?
Man Oh Man. What a handy workable
design! At least it would eliminate the need for a
"scale clock". Thanks for the engineering
analysis!!!!!

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas M. Olsen"
wrote:

List,

In mid-June, I purchased a set of assembled
Sargent
Couplers
(#EC87A-125) along with the Magnetic Uncoupling
Wand. The price for the
two items with shipping was $18.00. You get five
assembled Type "E"
couplers. They work very well and are smaller in
size than the Kadee
#58s. Even though I have not had the opportunity
to mount them in a
piece of rolling stock, I was able to test how
they
work. These
couplers are all-metal and are a dark
reddish-brown
in color which at a
distance make the coupler look as if it were
covered
with rust.

In reality, they operate just like the prototype.
They have a spring
located in the shank ahead of the mounting hole
like
the MKD-4 Kadee to
absorb the shock when the coupling is made.
After
uncoupling, they,
like the prototype do not return to center as the
Kadee and other HO
couplers available do. They do not mate with
other
knuckle couplers due
to the size difference between a proto-87 coupler
and the present
couplers available with the exception of the cast
dummy couplers. The
manufacturer advises that with a little filling on
the dummy coupler
knuckle, they will couple. To couple, they, like
their prototype
cousins require the services of a brakeman to
align
the coupler and if
necessary to open one of the knuckles if both are
closed. They will
couple if only one is open and both are properly
aligned. The present
information sheet from Sergent advises that the
current offerings are to
retrofit existing equipment. It is possible that
they may offer draft
gear boxes in the future as they said "Stay
Tuned!'

This coupler position and open/closed knuckle
situation could be a
problem for anyone who has a fairly large hump,
staging or flat switched
yard or any other location where the benchwork
edge
is more than an arms
length or the track centers are close at a
distance
with rolling stock
close on adjacent tracks. The distance benchwork
edge to track
situation is going to be the determining factor as
to whether anyone
will want to use these for operations, or just buy
them for display
purposes in shows and contests. You have to be
able
to place the
magnetic wand over top of the coupler head to
raise
the steel ball out
of it's slot in the locking block in the coupler
shank. This allows the
knuckle to open. When the knuckle closes, the
steel
ball drops back
into it's place and locks the knuckle closed. The
prototype couplers
are designed the same way, except there is no
steel
ball to raise, just
the locking block which is actuated by the raising
(or lowering,
depending on whether they are over or under-slung)
of the cutting lever
on the car end. In an earlier discussion
regarding
the operation of
couplers, it was Larry Jackman who addressed the
operation as to how
couplers lock and what has to occur to allow them
to
open. Many thanks
Larry, for making this clear to many who have not
had the on the ground
experience in this area.

The ability to open them when they are mounted on
passenger equipment
with diaphragms is a valid point. As Tim O'Connor
mentioned, the
possible use of anisotropic magnets mounted on a
wand designed for this
use and also mounted on an extended wand for
distances would solve the
problems in both the passenger and freight
situations. In regard to the
comment that the couplers have to be filed down to
fit present draft
gear boxes: there was no mention of this in the
paperwork that
accompanied the set that I received.

I'm sure that we all will be interested in what
Jared Harper's results
as he begins to test these couplers in actual
service. The big bugaboo
will be the ability to reach the cars and
accurately
get the wand into
position to uncouple the cars, or to be able to
align couplers with the
cars buried in a yard more than two feet from the
benchwork end. This
will really be a test of skill when humping cars,
as
you will only have
seconds to lift ball to uncouple the cars as they
go
over the hump or to
uncouple rear-end helpers on the fly. Most
fellows
that I know will not
use these couplers as they require the operator to
get more involved in
the actual work of making and breaking up of
trains
and in switching
operations. The magnetic couplers in use today
allow us to move along
quickly in an operating session, while use of the
Sergent couplers will
bring us back to reality as nothing moves fast in
actual railroad
switching and in train make-up and break-up
operations. Just like the
Army - "Hurry Up and Wait!

But, for display and contest purposes, they cannot
be beat! Hopefully,
Sergent will offer a scale draft gear box to make
this superbly scaled
coupler. Do not get me wrong, the Quad 58/78 is
a
tremendous
improvement over the earlier #5 and I will use
them
until the Sargent is
proved to be good in operation and the problems
are
solved. Whether
they are depends on what others find when they use
them. Jared, please
keep us up on what you find as it will be greatly
appreciated!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@u...





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Message: 25
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:42:32 +0000
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Sergent Couplers

But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.


Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.

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SRHA Gathering in 2 weeks

Jim King <jimking3@...>
 

I will be attending the SRHA 1-day "Gathering" in Greenville SC on
October 22. My O scale SR flat and composite gon pilot models and some
HO stuff will be displayed. Kits can be purchased/ordered thru the SRHA
that day. The meeting is planned to be in the NS conference center near
the former SR station. There will be several clinicians during the day
and all of SRHA's goodies for sale. If Greenville is within an out and
back day, consider joining us.

For more info, contact Dan Sparks at danrsparks@hotmail.com or Greg
Soots at gsoots@yahoo.com.

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, and Trucks

David Jobe, Sr.
 

Hi Pat,

Coming back to your earlier point about sprung and
equalized trucks I'll agree that at our scale sizes
there's negligible compression of the springs and I
would also like to see a different size/material to
make the springs more visually realistic regardless of
their functionality. However, the trucks are quite
capable to provide equalization, just not out of the
package.

It's a simple matter to disassemble the trucks,
carefully clean the flash off of the castings, and
reassemble. This was one of the very first jobs my
father gave me to begin my transition from tinplate to
scale modeling at around 7 years old. He set up a
work area for me with a hard tempered masonite work
surface held in place with ordinary masking tape. The
trucks were deemed acceptable when they could roll
diagonally across that 1/8 inch height differential
*AND* all four wheels maintained contact with their
respective surface. At the time it gave this
youngster quite a sense of accomplishment and
confidence.

Obviosusly, that extreme of equalization is not
necessary, but the flexibility of equalization is
nonetheless invaluable. If the wheels are in constant
contact with the rail they're far less likely to
derail. And, in the case of a locomotive and DCC, the
benefit of improved contact due to equalization
results in more reliable operation.

Cheers,

David Jobe
St. Ann, Missouri


--- Patrick Wider <pwider@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "S. Busch"
<SCSBusch@W...> wrote:

Please Mr. Sam At Kadee,

Yes, I vote for the 78s in bulk, too, as well as :

A USRA STYLE ANDREWS FREIGHT CAR TRUCK

- sprung, of course. Please, please, please ---
Why sprung? The toy cars aren't heavy enough to
compress the springs anyway and they
don't equalize so why bother? They also don't roll as
well as they could. I hate HO
"sprung" trucks. And while I'm at it Mr. Kadee, please
replace those spider-web springs
with something more substantial. I hate looking
through the spring groups and seeing the
daylight (layout lighting?) coming through. It's
blinding. Jack Spencer rolls his own springs
out of heavier wire and they look great! Other people
use brass loco driver springs. In
days of old when knights were bold and Central Valley
made trucks with concentric
wheels, their truck springs looked better as well.
Phosphor bronze I think. Why can't Kadee
make a similar improvement to the appearance of their
trucks? Continuous improvement -
that keeps companies in business.

Sorry but this a sore spot with me.

Pat Wider





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---------------------------------


Re: Sergent Couplers

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Tim and list,

On the prototype, the knuckle will tend to close if the car is moved. The force of gravity pulls on the pin and the vibration of movement will cause it to drop, closing the knuckle. The conductor or trainman then has to pull the cut lever and yank the knuckle open.

Since I model in N scale and use Micro-Trains and Accumate couplers, I don't know if this would happen to the Sergent coupler or not. ;<D

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sergent Couplers


But Pat, this begs the question: how did they get closed? They
only close (and lock) if some action is taken. I know this sounds
like a chicken/egg problem (because it is!) but normally the
knuckle remains open until the car is coupled to another car.


Hi Dave,
I was thinking of two facing cars, apart some distance, with their knuckles
still closed.



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