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Re: Challenger GS Gondolas

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

At 10:01 PM 12/5/2005 -0800, you wrote:
trucks of various kinds. If you want a late model, choose yer pizen; if
pre-1950 or thereabouts, you need a T-section truck.
The cars are in 40s paint schemes, so the T-section it is. Kadee #511
looks about right. I might even have a pair somewhere.... thanks.

Andy


Re: Challenger GS Gondolas

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Harman wrote:
My only two brass freight cars - a pair of Challenger Imports SP G50-9 . .
Any suggestions for a correct replacement truck? Or something that is at
least a reasonable stand-in? The trucks are not the same as my RC gons
have.
No, and they shouldn't be the same trucks! The G-50-9 cars came with T-section trucks; in the 1950s many were replaced with U-section trucks of various kinds. If you want a late model, choose yer pizen; if pre-1950 or thereabouts, you need a T-section truck.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Gons carrying rail

Tony Thompson
 

Mike Brock wrote:
Speaking of gons, does anyone know of a photo anywhere of the inside of a
gon carrying rail. Richard told me that wood was probably used to protect
the ends and floor but, before I guess on how they did it, I think I'll ask
if anyone knows of a photo.
There is one on page 37 of my Volume 1 on SP freight cars, but it is a wood-sided car, so the side protection wouldn't have been used. Can't tell if there was end protection. Don't offhand know of others.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Challenger GS Gondolas

Andy Harman <andy10@...>
 

My only two brass freight cars - a pair of Challenger Imports SP G50-9
gondolas, almost got ebayed a couple months ago. But I just have a thing
for drop bottoms, and they are not the same car as the Red Caboose gons.
So I can't bring myself to part with them.

Unfortunately, they have junk trucks (gee, where have I encountered that
before on an expensive piece). They have only a few hours running time on
them, and have begun to short.

Any suggestions for a correct replacement truck? Or something that is at
least a reasonable stand-in? The trucks are not the same as my RC gons
have.

Andy


Gons carrying rail

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Speaking of gons, does anyone know of a photo anywhere of the inside of a gon carrying rail. Richard told me that wood was probably used to protect the ends and floor but, before I guess on how they did it, I think I'll ask if anyone knows of a photo.

Mike Brock


Re: USRA mill gondola, USRA 55 ton hopper in N scale

Charlie Vlk
 

Richard-
True, but the "basic research resource" is not widely accessible to all (not everyone tries to maintain complete magazine collections.... some even advocate ripping issues apart...shudder!!!... for clipping files). I think an overview (with biography to the individual car complete articles) would be welcome in a popular format, perhaps accompanied with scale drawings of the implemented designs and mechanical/diagram drawings of the proposed designs that influenced later construction.
Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA mill gondola, USRA 55 ton hopper in N scale


On Dec 5, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

Ted-
I guess I knew that..... there just hasn't been the emphasis on mill
gons
like there has been on the double and single sheathed box cars and the
40' composite gondolas.
Maybe an article that gives an overview of the "USRA" freight car
designs
(with the passenger car designs...if there actually were any ....USRA
RPO???)
would be a good project. Was the wood Eastern center cupola four
window
caboose a real USRA design or just cloned from the same plans?
Charlie, you haven't been paying attention. I did a lengthy and
extensively illustrated article on the USRA gondolas in the July, 2002
Railmodel Journal. Of course, the basic research resource on all of
the USRA freight cars is James E. Lane's mongraph in the R&LHS
periodical Railroad History, #128 (Spring, 1973). All of the USRA
designs � including the ones that weren't built for the USRA, such as
the tank and flat cars � were covered in the 1919 Car Builders'
Dictionary (and in Greggs Train Shed Cyclopedia reprint #9). And then,
of course, there's the prototype data in Al Westerfield's kits which,
concise though it is, leaves nothing to the imagination. A
comprehensive article such as you describe might be useful for
late-comers who are new to the subject, but it's not as though there
hasn't been a lot of previously published information on the USRA cars.

Richard Hendrickson





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Re: speaking of mill gons.....

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
Scott is right, size doesn't matter.....gondola cars of various lengths
certainly were built "for mill trade" or were considered "mill type"
gondolas. "Real Railroaders" on the ground may not have made the
distinction, but the Mechanical Department and Carbuilders certainly did.
Yep, another case in which "real railroaders" don't have the last word.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: speaking of mill gons.....

Charlie Vlk
 

Scott is right, size doesn't matter.....gondola cars of various lengths certainly were built "for mill trade" or were considered "mill type" gondolas. "Real Railroaders" on the ground may not have made the distinction, but the Mechanical Department and Carbuilders certainly did.
Charlie Vlk


Re: speaking of mill gons.....

ljack70117@...
 

On Dec 5, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Scott Chatfield wrote:
Since we're rehashing old subjects, let me air a pet peeve.
"Mill gon" is almost as frequently misused as "friction bearing" and
"roofwalk". Okay, maybe a distant third, but nonetheless, most
modelers think a "mill gon" is a 65-foot gon and nothing else.
Coupla comments, Scott: (a) I don't have the same impression as
you do that modelers generally misunderstand "mill gon," but perhaps
<g> I associate with a better class of modeler . . . and (b) for
misuse, "outside braced" (and what I thought was your favorite,
"chemical tank car") are MILES ahead of "mill gon."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
You people know where I stand on "Friction Bearings". Well here is an other one. When I worked for the RRs that I did we did not talk about a "Mill Gondolas". They were gondolas or some times "coal cars". When they were redoing a state Highway, they received a train load of "Grizzly" ( sand type of stuff) 5 days a week from the McPherson branch and it came to Salina and we sent it up the Beloit Branch. We had orders for empty gondolas. We had 5 trains of them all lengths, some solid bottoms and some drop bottoms. Every time we got ours hands on another empty "coal car" it went into the bunch. Once in a while we got a note about one from back east to cut it out and send home. I said a train load. There was about 40 cars to the train. Once in a while we would get a BO for a hot box. We would cut it out repair it and then weigh it. At the slow speeds they were moving we knew a hot box was caused by to much weight. This went on for 2 months. But us railroaders never called them "Mill" gondolas, at least not where I worked. This was in 1949.
Most of you probably know they used this stuff. A oil truck would go down the road follow by a truck spreading the grizzly and a big roller following and rolling it in. Interstate 84 was built that way in Idaho.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


Re: Life Like P2k 10k Insulated Tankcar Type 21

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Hi Andy,

I went looking for the Tarvia car behind an electric in Pennsy Power I
but could not locate the photo in question. I also checked Pennsy Power
II and II to no avail. What I did find was the two pictures in which
the Barrett LTA hopper-tank cars are evident. The first one is a shot
of a westbound local inter-yard transfer (known in Philly as a "runner")
powered by a Baldwin BS10a just east of Frankford Jct., Phila., with an
LTA in behind the loco (Pennsy Power II) on page 243. The second LTA
photo shows on behind a brace of westbound E2b electrics coming off the
Brandywine Valley viaduct with a pair of LTA's tucked in three and four
deep behind the "motors.

There were 100 LTA's on the Barrett roster carting slate roofing
granules to the Barrett factory where they made asphalt roofing shingles
in Philadelphia. The decals for these were never available from any of
the manufacturers. I had a number of sets made from scratch by Kim at
Champ shortly before her Dad's death. When Rich Meyer passed away,
Champ ceased making Alps reprints and custom decals from scratch. They
still have the computer generated artwork that Kim did for me, but
unless someone buys the company, I do not see anything new from Champ.
Connie plans to fold the tent when they finally run out of decals in
stock, which she estimates about 3-4 years in the future.

One way to duplicate out of production decals is to take to have someone
scan them onto a disk and use that in a photoshop or cad program so that
they can be replicated. I found that Kinkos locally has a Sony scanner
that duplicates photographs and all kinds on printed media onto several
types of media. You can make direct scanned prints from originals that
are as good as the originals. Or , you can save the material onto a
floppy disk or a CD. I gave Bruce Smith a CD recently with scanned
copies of the Champ custom Supplee Milk Car and Barrett LTA decals.
They looked pretty good when he opened up the files off the CD. Whether
you can replicate these material from this type of media is something
that is worth a try!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

Miller, Andrew S. wrote:

An interesting photo appears in Pennsy Power I of a train containing a
Barrett Tarvia tank car behind a PRR electric. I have always referred
to this car as the "dome and half" tank car. It was obviously a single
dome car modified to two compartments. It has a large dome in the
middle of the car and a noticeably smaller one at one end. I built a
model of this car many, many years ago and unfortunately, not having
the standards I do today, wasted the decals on a crude model of an
inappropriate car. I think it was a early Mantua plastic tank car. I
have looked at this car recently in hopes of finding a way to bring it
up to my current standards for a stand-in, but it does not seem likely.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
luzhin1
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 12:32 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Life Like P2k 10k Insulated Tankcar Type 21

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:

Other cars obviously for tar were:


Montazuma Asphalt (Pan American Petroleum Co.), Tarvia (The Barrett

Co.), and ROTAR (Dominion Tar & Chemical Co.).

This discussion is reminding me that I have some lovely Tarvia
(Barrett) decals but have never been able to find out what type tank
car (circa 1930) Barrett would have owned. Would it have been
insulated? Has anyone done up a Tarvia car? And what model did you
use?

Thanks,
Greg Smith








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Re: Another newbie question

Schuyler Larrabee
 

philjannusch wrote:

I am planning to build a model railroad set in 1919.
Phil,

1919 may be an atypical year in which to model because all
roads in that year were managed by the USRA. I have no idea
of what the effect could be on a Northern Illinois road nor
on freight cars in general.

David Thompson has summarized the total cars of each type
(boxcars, gons, hoppers, reefers, flats, et al.) per railroad
listed in the October 1919 ORER in an Excel spreadsheet
included in the STMFC's Files as 10-19.xls.

Tim Gilbert
Interesting point, Tim, and in general, the freight car fleet (probably passenger equipment too) was
in very tough shape, given the limited "maintenance" it received under USRA control.

SGL


Re: USRA mill gondola, USRA 55 ton hopper in N scale

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Angela Sutton asked:
"Does anyone know of close approximations or good kitbash starting
points for these cars in N scale?"

USRA mill gondola: Unfortunately, nothing is all that close. The
closest approximation out of the box is the Model Power 50 ft gon,
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/490-3061
which is 4 ft too long and has 11 side stakes vice the 12 of the
prototype. Photo is of the Westerfield HO scale model:
http://www.westerfield.biz/8155.htm

Charlie's suggestion of using the upcoming Athearn 65 ft gon as a
stand-in probably won't work for most modelers (the model would be
almost 20 ft too long compared to the intended prototype), but his
suggestion of using it as a starting point might be worth
investigating. The fishbelly side sills will need to go, and you'd
need to verify the length of the car when cut down to the right
number of panels/side stakes.

If I used the Model Power gon as a stand-in, I'd add fishbelly
centersills and drop ends to disguise the appearance of the original
model and bring it closer to the prototype. I'd leave the length
and number of side stakes alone and hope the viewer doesn't notice
the differences in lettering vs. the panels.


USRA 55 ton hopper in N scale:
The situation in N scale is analagous to that in HO scale 20 years
ago - no models and a stand-in that's 10% too long differing in
significant details. Fortunately, the MicroTrains twin isn't a
direct copy of the Athearn car and will require considerably less
work to produce a credible stand-in. I'd add the triangular gussets
outside each of the outermost side stakes, change the end supports
to channels, and install Andrews trucks. For more modification
ideas, Bob Hundman modified an Athearn HO scale twin to a USRA twin
in "Modeling the USRA Hopper" in the April 1982 issue of Mainline
Modeler, still available from the publisher:
http://www.hundman.com/cgi-bin/viewcatalog.cgi?
year=1982;magazine=mm&ct=1

The Bowser GLA is not as good a stand-in - it's 8 inches too short
in height, the side stake profiles are different, and the car has
boxy end sills that are significantly different from the USRA twin.


Ben Hom


Re: NYC auto frame gon in RMC

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 5, 2005, at 3:59 PM, blindog@mindspring.com wrote:

In Ted C's "Essential Freight Car" December installment, he has a picture of a 40'6" auto frame gon, NYC 698525. I can't say I've ever seen one like it before. Not just as a frame gon, but in general. How many 40-foot fishbelly-side gons were built? Seems to be overkill. Was this series built for frame service? If so, the fishbelly sides would really be overkill.

Translation, it looks like an interesting car to kitbash, especially if any were used in mill or general service. I have no excuse to build a frame gon.
Scott, the NYC rebuilt thousands of its 1920s vintage USRA-derived gondolas into cars of this design beginning in 1951 (using only the underframes and running gear; sides, ends, and floor were new). Though they may not be legible in the half-tone that accompanied Ted's article, the lot # was 526-G and the built date 6-26, which reveals the car's earlier origins. NYC 698505-698758 and 699950-699999 were modified for auto frame service at East Rochester in 1953. I have a couple of photos of these cars in general service, without auto racks.

Also, though 40' steel gons with fishbelly side sills were rare, there were more of them than you seem to think. For example, the Georgia RR had some that were built in 1924 and the DT&I had a bunch built in 1941 with drop ends which they also, perversely, converted into auto frame gons after WW II.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Merrilees Collection

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

When I did research at ACF St. Charles I noticed that the builders photos used in the Cycs were missing from the sequencial photo archives. This was true as far back as 1912. I can only assume that the marketing department swiped them for the Cycs and no dupes were ever made to fill in the gaps. - Al Westerfield


Re: Merrilees Collection

Tony Thompson
 

One thing to keep in mind before one gripes about photo print prices: quality matters, too. The DeGolyer charges plenty for Steinheimer prints, for example, but their lab knows what they are doing, and the prints are simply excellent. I mind high prices a lot less when I get a great print. I suppose an example of the other extreme would be the period when the CSRM people contracted with a lowest bidder (who, incidentally, underbid Stan Kistler) and the prints were virtually unusable. Luckily they have understood the problem and now use a lab which is fine.
Another point is the issue of whether or not a negative exists. Obviously, creating a negative AND a print costs more, and you just have to think of the negative-cost portion of the bill as your contribution to the museum or archive. (They, of course, keep the negative.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Merrilees Collection

Shawn Beckert
 

Roger Hinman wrote:

Copies are still pricy but not as bad as the LOC or Smithsonian.
Or the Los Angeles Public Library, which recently upped their price
for an 8x10 glossy print from $15 to $25. Not including tax/shipping.

Sigh...

Shawn Beckert


Re: McCoid

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'C writes:
Does anyone know more about Mr McCoid? Who was he, where did he live,
what did he do, how long was he taking photos? Surely his collection spans
a huge geographical area, and the quality of his work is amazing. I wonder
if there are more undiscovered McCoid's out there...
Bob Liljestrand (of Bob's Photos) knew McCoid when he was in his later years, and the two of them used to go out shooting trains in recent decades. When Chet (who was a retired colonel, I can't remember if it was Air Force or Army, and thus often in various parts of the country) passed away a few years ago, his widow gave the negatives to Bob. Bob says he was astounded to find all the 1950s stuff, which he says Chet had never mentioned. His STFMC photos date from the end of the 1940s into the early 1960s, that I've seen, but of course there may be far more.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Merrilees Collection

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

I've done three days at the Merrilees this past fall and my
impression is there are quite a few photos in the pre 1920s; and I
didn't get through half the boxes, I think
had interesting items in there. My estimate is only 50% have neg
numbers, but the good news is they don't charge extra to make the
negative. They no longer assign PA numbers but ec numbers which I believe indicates "electronic copy". Copies are still pricy but not
as bad as the LOC or Smithsonian

Roger Hinman

On Dec 5, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Dec 5, 2005, at 2:16 PM, Ian Cranstone wrote:

I should also note that there are a lot more photos in here than a lot
of folks realize. The ones that have had copy negatives made have
been
given PA numbers (which Gay's old website listed, see my website
below
for a link to the Wayback Machine that archived his site), but the
vast
majority have never been done. I did get a copy of a more extensive
listing that Gay did by owner/car number, which shows a lot of photos
that have never been copied.
I entirely agree, having once spent three days (in company with
several
others) intensively plowing through the Merrilees collection without
even getting around to opening all the boxes. FWIW, it's my
impression
that the photos ol' Andy bagged from Simmons-Boardman dated mostly
from
the '20s through '40s and didn't extend back into the teens, the era
that Dennis Storzek was inquiring about. However, nobody – including
the Archivists at the National Archives of Canada – knows what all is
in that vast and still largely uncatalogued collection .

Richard Hendrickson



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Re: speaking of mill gons.....

Tony Thompson
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:
Since we're rehashing old subjects, let me air a pet peeve.
"Mill gon" is almost as frequently misused as "friction bearing" and "roofwalk". Okay, maybe a distant third, but nonetheless, most modelers think a "mill gon" is a 65-foot gon and nothing else.
Coupla comments, Scott: (a) I don't have the same impression as you do that modelers generally misunderstand "mill gon," but perhaps <g> I associate with a better class of modeler . . . and (b) for misuse, "outside braced" (and what I thought was your favorite, "chemical tank car") are MILES ahead of "mill gon."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: McCoid (was NYC auto frame gon in RMC)

Tim O'Connor
 

Scott C wrote

PS: What am I thankful for this holiday season? Among other things, that guys
like Chet McCoid wandered the country back in the early diesel years and
photographed freight cars, a couple decades before it was "cool."
Does anyone know more about Mr McCoid? Who was he, where did he live,
what did he do, how long was he taking photos? Surely his collection spans
a huge geographical area, and the quality of his work is amazing. I wonder
if there are more undiscovered McCoid's out there...

Tim O'Connor

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