Date   

Re: SP Freight Train Numbers (was UP...right and left indications)

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 11:38 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Shawn Beckert writes about the SP:

And Gregg Mahlkov adds:

"You can be sure the Chief Dispatcher and all the other dispatchers knew
which locomotives were assigned to which trains."

For sure, the Wyoming dispatcher knew a great deal about each
train...including the tonnage, engine # and crew's names.
You can bet that any body that wanted to know, could find out what the conductor knew. When a train was made up the lowly yard clerk checked it and made the list for the conductor and pulled the way bills. Then after the conductor walked out of the yard office the lowly clerk gave the list to the operator and he using his great "click, click key sent it to all points that needed it and the dispatcher would get a copy. Just because you do not know what a train is when it goes by you, The Dispatcher KNOWs. (sound of the Shadow at this point) Big grin

The conductor knew
the entire consist and the destination of each car...and its contents. The
dispatcher wrote down in his Record of Movement of Trains information for
e
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I wish the buck stopped here as I could use a few


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

docdenny34 <danspach@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:
Denny,

Although I use the Accurail scale boxes, and appreciate their
detail, I still wish they were made of STYRENE instead of a
material that repels every adhesive known to man. The only
way to attach them is with screws, which mars their appearance
and is also problematic in many cases. The material also is not
easy to cut or file cleanly. What the heck is it made of anyway?
Did I mention they're not easy to paint either?

Mr. Storzek are you listening? :-)

And I have learned to position the draft gear a bit further than
the prototype, because the face of the coupler doesn't protude
as far from the box as a Kadee -- the result being that two cars
with them couple a bit too closely.

Tim O'Connor
Tim, I do not know what the material is, but I agree that it is one tough cookie to cut,
sand, or file. Although I have never discussed this with Dennis Storzek, I would venture to
guess that this was an effort on his part to use only stable "engineering" plastics for both
the coupler halves and the box. As many of you no doubt have noticed, all the pieces of
this actually pretty sophisticated coupler "system" have truly close " net" fits - much like a
piece of fine Faberge jewelry.

Whether you like this style or coupler or not, it is this kind of well engineered and fitted
coupler-with-box that should be the goal of every single coupler manufacturer or
designer- much less those setting standards.

I do spray paint the boxes, and the molecules of the paint holding hands alone seem to
keep the paint in one piece :-0.

Screws: I too do not really care for the protruding pan head 00-80 screws, although I put
up with them most of the time because I really cannot see them most of the time.
However, when I have wanted to get rid of them, I have instead countersunk the underside
of the box just deep enough so that 00-90 flathead screws can instead be used with the
heads flush. You can try it with a 00-80 flathead, but a significant part of the time you will
actually countersink into the central boss for the coupler itself- which can make the
coupler itself pretty unhappy!

At other times, I have epoxied the boxes in place, and then drove brass wire "stakes"
through the screw holes into the model underframe (drilled), clipping the heads flush. This
combination seems to make a lasting joint, although it might not withstand a dive to the
floor.

You are also correct that you have to rethink just how far the box should protrude. If they
protrude correctly, however, one of the very most unexpected and striking effects of the
use of these scale-sized couplers is that when they are coupled up, the cars are far more
closely spaced- just like the prototype!

Denny


Re: SP Freight Train Numbers (was UP...right and left indications)

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Shawn Beckert writes about the SP:

However, the dispatcher sheet would show the train's actual symbol,
such as PNW for "Phoenix Northwest", SSE for "Sunset East", etc. And
of course the dispatcher wrote down the engine number(s) and tonnage,
among other bits of information.
And Gregg Mahlkov adds:

"You can be sure the Chief Dispatcher and all the other dispatchers knew
which locomotives were assigned to which trains."

For sure, the Wyoming dispatcher knew a great deal about each train...including the tonnage, engine # and crew's names. The conductor knew the entire consist and the destination of each car...and its contents. The dispatcher wrote down in his Record of Movement of Trains information for every train on a given day including engine #, cars, tonnage, crew, ...and that for Oct 1, 1956, is in the UPHS publication, The Streamliner, Vol 15 No. 4. Interestingly enough, the dispatcher even recorded the weather forecast and, presumably, somewhere on the sheet is a prediction of the forthcoming Yankee/Dodger World Series. Nowhere, however, is the slightest indication of the actual identity of a train...if one considers such symbols as the Pocatello-Colorado Fruit [ PCF ], Colton Fruit [ CF ], Roseville Fruit [ RV ], Overland East Manifest [ OVE ] or SP Forwarder [ SPF ] to identify a train. Facetiousness aside, such stealthy behavior DOES make it difficult for the modeler or historian to understand the daily operations of UP frt trains.

Mike Brock


Re: UP...right and left indications

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Gregg Mahlkov writes:


The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do
with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Interesting. There is definitely a disconnect involved somewhere. For
example, we have the chart from the UPHS showing UP frt train schedules in
1944...including train numbers. We have the 1948 Employee Time Table that
includes at least three of these scheduled trains across Wyoming. We have a
list of names of UP frt trains in the Wyoming and Nebraska Divs for the
early 50s. We know the schedule for perishable trains from Cal. And, yet,
there are no known photos showing anything but an extra frt train between
Cheyenne and Ogden. It may well be that UP had to run all frt trains as
extras...although it seems odd. I'm just saying that there seems to be SOME
logic to putting the $^$#%$ identification of the train somewhere on or in
it. At least someone in operations should know what it is. I can imagine a
UP frt train arriving at Cheyenne, eastbound, finding...as usual...several
other trains waiting to get into the yard. I can imagine the conductors of
all these trains claiming to be SP Forwarder, a high priority train. I
mean...it's cold and snowing and the crews are trying to get to the bar at
the Hitching Post Hotel. The yardmaster asks the dispatcher which is the SP
Forwarder and he replies..."Hell, how should I know." So, they get some
lawyers from the hotel's bar and go look through the cars to see which train
has the most hooch [ Wyoming imported a LOT of wine from Cal ] assuming its
train would be the SP Forwarder.

Extras are

operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it
has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
I would bet every one of those trains shown on your records are operated by Pool cars What is a pool car. It is a conductor and two brakemen. They work as a crew, together first in and first out. You never operate an extra train off the extra board unless you are out of rested pool cars. The extra board is for filling holes in the pool cars when someone lays off.
The dispatcher KNOWS what every train is. The Santa Fe ran nothing but extra trains But the consists that we received had what the train's name was. When the dispatcher talked to the yardmasters's office he would mention the extra #### and such and such train. We had trains coming from three lines from the west and we always knew the train's name.
I know when I was a yard clerk in the west Topeka yards I would get a call from the yard office to tell me that train (some times extra #### and some train name) was going to set out a cut and for me to get the waybills from the head brakeman. I guarantee you that the dispatcher knew what each train was even if you guys can not figure it out.

pecified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of
what
showed in the "indicators".
Perhaps. But from the info we see, there isn't anything identifying a train.
So...how would a dispatcher know to put the low priority sludge train from
Green River into a siding to let the high priority perishable fruit block
by? I mean all he has are the engine numbers.
No he has more than just the engine number He has a copy of the manifest and a yard master does not make up a train, call a crew and send it out with out the dispatcher's permission and telling him what it its. On perishable trains the dispatcher can tell if he wants to where and when each car needs to be iced and so on. The dispatcher RUNS the RR and he does NOT do it blind and in the dark. The crews do not control anything.

Remember, the perishable schedule had to be met or penalties would ensue. I
suppose one might simply infer that a train with PFE reefers might be a
perishable train....if eastbound. I can almost imagine a crew grabbing some
empty PFE reefers at, say, Rawlins and hauling them back east so they'd have
priority. This implies icing MT reefers at Laramie but given the UP record
of late, would anyone be surprised?

Mike Brock




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Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end to end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them.


Re: Sant Fe Dry Ice Reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

Gerald, I'm not aware of any other railroads that owned dry ice cars,
but there were several private owners: Mathieson, Liquid Carbonic
Corp., Merchants Despatch (DCIX), and perhaps others that don't come
readily to mind. All three had cars custom-built for this service, not
converted from conventional reefers as in the case of the Santa Fe
Rr-20 class. I know very little about dry ice traffic on the Santa Fe
and can't say how far or how often their cars went off-line, but I do
know that the travelled from Witt, NM to Southern Calif. on a more or
less regular basis.
Richard Hendrickson
I have a 1958 shot from [Dan Smith/Andy Carlson] of DICX 379 (Pure Carbonic)
that is a 10'6" box car with R+3/4 ends, 10 panel riveted sides (with extra
rivet row in each panel) and a very weird, low, narrow door with 8 hinges.
Taken somewhere in Southern California.

Also have a 1956 shot of a Cardox dry ice car. So that's two more names.

Tim O.


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Walter Clark wrote:
"Yes, I'd like the Sergent coupler to fit a more scale box (and I
agree that 5 per package is silly) but, to me, the appearance of the
coupler, sticking out from the end of the car is more noticeable than
the box it is in."

I totally disagree. The oversized knuckle of the legacy couplers
helped to conceal the too-wide and too-shallow draft gear. Putting a
scale-sized coupler in the same box now calls attention to its
deficiencies. Yes, you now have a scale coupler sticking out from the
end of the car, but now the incorrect draft gear is revealed for
everyone to see.


Ben Hom


NMRA

Eric
 

Regarding the discussion of the NMRA, does anyone about the American Model Ralroad Association?

I came across their website about six years agao but my hard drive died and I lost the bookmark?

Eric Petersson

________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Tim O'Connor
 

Why don't we establish some sort of standard here on the list and
then see if it could be "adopted" by the WPM,RPM and other prototype
motivated groups?
From what I understand, that's basically how DCC was adopted as
a standard -- pushed by individuals who wanted to create it (and
turn it into a business) under the auspices of the NMRA. I think
some of the people involved even belonged to the NMRA. :-)

A standard, scale-size coupler box -might- be possible but it also
might be unwise to go any further than that (i.e. no coupler). DCC
left it "up to the user" anything that did not involve signalling
and electrical specs. Thus there are incompatible control systems,
but compatible decoders and plugs. Couplers that could be plugged
into any scale draft gear would be a step forward IMO. I'm sure using
space age plastics and design, a pocket with a strong snap-fitting but
removable lid is possible too. (So you could change couplers or
even switch to a new coupler design down the road.)

Tim O.


Re: NMRA Standards, conventions, et al

Greg Martin
 

-----From the Original Message-----
From: jaley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com

" I, for one, take my enjoyment from attending clinics, and from
talking to like-minded prototype modelers in between the clinics.

[Please note my bias: I am the Clinic Chairman at Prototype Rails
in Cocoa Beach].

Regards,

-Jeff Aley"

Hey Jeff,
Since when do you find time for clinics in Cocoa Beach?
I generally find you searching for a piece of equipment or a
person for the next round of seminars... 3^)
Greg Martin


Were there 10' IH 50' 1937 AAR DD boxcars?

Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

I'm working on a presentation for Naperville on Central of Georgia
steel boxcars. In 1937 the CG started to accumulate a sizable fleet of
50' door and a half 10' IH boxcars. They have the 4-5 ends and Murphy
square panel roofs that were on so many 1937 AAR 40s. Was there an AAR
spec for a 50' version? Was there an AAR spec for a 40' double door
car?

I also have hit a dead end on why the passion for door and a half 40s
and 50s like the Central had. It's a combination of 4' and 6'
Younsgstown - Camel doors. I know N&W had a fleet of the combo 40s and
the SAL had a fleet of 50s with double 6' doors and plate ends, all
10' IH.

Can anyone cast any light on the why and wherefores of these cars? Was
it a customer requirement or just eveloution? Any help will be
appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax


SP Freight Train Numbers (was UP...right and left indications)

Shawn Beckert
 

On Southern Pacific's Yuma Division in February 1956, all
freights were run as extras, and showed this in the indicators,
i.e. "X6300". Only passenger trains carried the train number up
front, i.e. #1-2 (Sunset), #3-4 (Golden State), #5-6 (Argonaut).

However, the dispatcher sheet would show the train's actual symbol,
such as PNW for "Phoenix Northwest", SSE for "Sunset East", etc. And
of course the dispatcher wrote down the engine number(s) and tonnage,
among other bits of information.

This makes it hard to identify photos of trains on the line - you might
be looking at an image of the Blue Streak or TXM (Tucson Manifest), but
you'd never know it from looking at the engine number boards.

Eyeballing the consist doesn't help either - a train full of reefers
isn't necessarily SP's famous "Colton Block", since the road ran lots
of other perishable trains (Imperial Valley Block, Laredo Block, etc.),
as well as empties headed for cleaning or loading. About the only train
that could be ID'd was the Eugene Empties, or "EUG-X" since it was usually
empty flats and boxcars with doors hanging open.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:
Denny,

The material also is not
easy to cut or file cleanly. What the heck is it made of anyway?
Did I mention they're not easy to paint either?
It's made of the same material that they found at Roswell.

Pat Wider


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

scott@...
 

Why don't we establish some sort of standard here on the list and then
see if it could be "adopted" by the WPM,RPM and other prototype
motivated groups?


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 2:11 PM, Andy Sperandeo wrote:

If the NMRA had the slightest influence on any of this, it's that the Athearn coupler box was meant to hold an X2f-style horn-hook coupler. And while that coupler was designed by an NMRA committee, and quickly picked up by manufacturers anxious to have a compatible coupler, the organization itself declined to adopt the X2f design either as a standard or a recommended practice. But this is all really old, old news and of very little consequence today.
Not exactly. The X2f fiasco, and the heartburn that resulted in many quarters, is one of the reasons why many NMRA functionaries remain (half a century later) adamant that the NMRA should not become involved in any way in developing coupler standards.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: UP...right and left indications

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Mike and list,

You can be sure the Chief Dispatcher and all the other dispatchers knew which locomotives were assigned to which trains.
Train consists were telegraphed from one yard to the next, teletyped by the end of WW II, so the Dispatcher and Yardmaster not only knew for example that Extra 4018 had the SP perishables, but the car number and contents of every car behind his tender.

As was pointed out, those trains in the timetable were to be operated according to the timetable - annul them and operate extras and you can run them when they fit into the traffic pattern.

When I worked for the AN, everyone called our freights No. 72 and 73, but they were technically extras, so we could set the departure time to meet CSXT traffic at Chattahoochee. If we had a scheduled time, the crew would go on duty at that time. If we knew CSXT was 4 hours late, not only would the crew get paid for the 4 hours sitting in Port St. Joe before departing, but they'd outlaw before they got back!

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UP...right and left indications


Gregg Mahlkov writes:

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do
with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Interesting. There is definitely a disconnect involved somewhere. For
example, we have the chart from the UPHS showing UP frt train schedules in
1944...including train numbers. We have the 1948 Employee Time Table that
includes at least three of these scheduled trains across Wyoming. We have a
list of names of UP frt trains in the Wyoming and Nebraska Divs for the
early 50s. We know the schedule for perishable trains from Cal. And, yet,
there are no known photos showing anything but an extra frt train between
Cheyenne and Ogden. It may well be that UP had to run all frt trains as
extras...although it seems odd. I'm just saying that there seems to be SOME
logic to putting the $^$#%$ identification of the train somewhere on or in
it. At least someone in operations should know what it is. I can imagine a
UP frt train arriving at Cheyenne, eastbound, finding...as usual...several
other trains waiting to get into the yard. I can imagine the conductors of
all these trains claiming to be SP Forwarder, a high priority train. I
mean...it's cold and snowing and the crews are trying to get to the bar at
the Hitching Post Hotel. The yardmaster asks the dispatcher which is the SP
Forwarder and he replies..."Hell, how should I know." So, they get some
lawyers from the hotel's bar and go look through the cars to see which train
has the most hooch [ Wyoming imported a LOT of wine from Cal ] assuming its
train would be the SP Forwarder.

Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it
has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of
what
showed in the "indicators".
Perhaps. But from the info we see, there isn't anything identifying a train.
So...how would a dispatcher know to put the low priority sludge train from
Green River into a siding to let the high priority perishable fruit block
by? I mean all he has are the engine numbers.
Remember, the perishable schedule had to be met or penalties would ensue. I
suppose one might simply infer that a train with PFE reefers might be a
perishable train....if eastbound. I can almost imagine a crew grabbing some
empty PFE reefers at, say, Rawlins and hauling them back east so they'd have
priority. This implies icing MT reefers at Laramie but given the UP record
of late, would anyone be surprised?

Mike Brock






Yahoo! Groups Links









Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Charles Morrill <badlands@...>
 

I also found this particular method of uncoupling to be required when faced with O scale passenger cars equipped with Kadees shorn of their ridiculous looking "uncoupling hooks".;o)) Oh well, back to plan A and scale operating knuckle couplers.
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@macnexus.org>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size


SNIP
Andy Sperandeo comments that he can see no way to uncouple the
Sergeant couplers under passenger car diaphragms. I am surprised that
he has not yet learned that it can be simply done by utilizing the
respective two-handed five-finger manual pickup of the two cars
involved, to be then followed by a vigorous semi-coordinated, but
basically random shaking and twirling of the two cars until the
couplers give up the ghost. This uncoupling method, while always
working eventually, also puts to the test one's historical ability to
have firmly mounted the details of each car.

Denny


Re: UP...right and left indications

ljack70117@...
 

On Oct 5, 2005, at 7:00 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train Order
operations than the specific railroad or area.
Not true on the UPRR on the Kansas division. Trains with Timetable numbers were operated by Pool crews first in and first out. I have called 155 using the first out pool car and then called an extra with the next pool car. The extra board was used to fill holes where a crew member laid off or if you did not have a rested pool car and would use the extra board it make a crew. If a person laid off and his car went out then he could not mark back up until his car returned. Of course regular trains on a branch line had assigned crews who bid in the job. If you needed an extra on a branch line then you used one of your pool cars.
Also to help branch-line crews with their flagging they would be given a flagging order.
It would read "All westbound extra trains wait at Salina Ks until (a given time). This way if it was not in the timetable they did not have to worry about flagging the rear of their train. They did not have to Worry about their head end because they were in the timetable and the other trains have to look out for them.

If a train has an assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it. Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the madness of what
showed in the "indicators".

Gregg Mahlkov
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
The 50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is 90% probability you'll get it wrong.


Re: UP...right and left indications

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@g...> wrote:
Jeff, Mike, and list,

The use of train numbers vs. running a train as an extra has more
to do with
union contracts and The Rights of Trains under Timetable and Train
Order
operations than the specific railroad or area. If a train has an
assigned
number and is operated as such, a crew has a right to bid on it.
Extras are
operated off the "Extra Board". Also, if a train is in the
timetable, it has
the right to certain sections of track if it is operating within
the times
specified in the Timetable. Operating all freights as extras gave
the
Dispatcher greater flexibility. So, there was method to the
madness of what
showed in the "indicators".

Each crew change point would have enough pool/chain-gang crews to
handle the number of trains run between that point and the next crew
change on a daily basis. A crew would be called for train 355, and,
in the case of the UP, run as an extra. The train number may not
even be in the timetable, but be used as a reference for a certain
train. The dispatcher probably had the train number on his train
sheet along with the indication that the train was running as Ex 4011
West. The extra board provided men to replace regular men in the
pool when they laid off or were on vacation. If an additional crew
was needed to move a train, a crew would be "set up" using extra
board men.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Couplers, Coupler Pockets, The NMRA, and Scale Size

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny,

Although I use the Accurail scale boxes, and appreciate their
detail, I still wish they were made of STYRENE instead of a
material that repels every adhesive known to man. The only
way to attach them is with screws, which mars their appearance
and is also problematic in many cases. The material also is not
easy to cut or file cleanly. What the heck is it made of anyway?
Did I mention they're not easy to paint either?

Mr. Storzek are you listening? :-)

And I have learned to position the draft gear a bit further than
the prototype, because the face of the coupler doesn't protude
as far from the box as a Kadee -- the result being that two cars
with them couple a bit too closely.

Tim O'Connor


Sunshine CNW gon

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Some time ago Tom Wencl asked about the number of grabs on the Sunshine CNW gondola. The kit has provisions for 5 on the right end of the side, while all photos and drawing show only 4.

Last night Lloyd Keyser called. While I had his ear so to speak I took the opportunity to ask about the gon. He was just happy to say he had done the masters. After I asked him about the grabs he tried to say he didn't know who did the masters. Then admitted to screwing up.

So, Tom I think the mystery is solved.

Clark Propst

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