Re: dutch drop

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>

The Dutch drop was to get the car from the north end of the engine to the
south end (for example), but without a run-around. So, the moving car was
allowed to roll past the locomotive that has run away from the rolling car,
stopped, reversed, thrown the switch, and run into what was a trailing point
switch. The switch is then thrown again and the car rolls past, putting the
car at the other end of the locomotive. The locomotive now throws the
switch, runs out of the spur, catches the rolling boxcar (or the brakeman
has stopped it), and the train reassembled.

As for why - if there is switching to be done, and there is no way to get
the car to the other end of the train except to travel several miles to a
run around, well, many crews won't suffer along with spending literally
hours running to a run-around just to run back. Hence, the Dutch drop.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [STMFC] dutch drop

Now for the fun and games. A "DUTCH drop". You want to get the car to
the other end of your engine but you have a trailing point switch.
Why would you even want to do a "dutch drop"?

The goal is to get the car to the other end of the engine. What reasons
would there be to do that other than to switch a facing point switch. If
you
are going to do a facing point move, why not just do the regular drop?

Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Eric

Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Tom Jones wrote:

"Electronic throttles are great - until you want to simulate momentum effects in the rolling stock,
not locomotives, as was the topic of the thread. In specific, we were discussing how to make a
boxcar or other freight car appear to be of the same mass as the prototype. This would include being
able to "dutch drop" the car, have the car roll down a hump and into a marshalling yard at
prototypical speeds and all the way to the end of the track, etc. Our models may be excellent
physical representations of the real thing, but they operate like toys because friction remains a
real constant and does not scale down. Hence, the thrust of the thread was how to overcome
the effects of friction so that the models would appear to be real in their actions and reactions."

How are you planning to overcome the laws of physics? It seems to me that the only way to mimic the
way scale cars move would be to DCC power them all and have the prototype movement you want to mimic
hardwired into the controller. This obviously brings it's own problems until a cheap traction motor
style wheel set that can be installed into freight and passenger car trucks and a like sized decoder
is available. Of course that path gives us the opportunity to be able to 'set' the brakes of the
model on grades and perhaps have operating couplers.

Until that happens I don't think there's a way to make free rolling scale cars approach the movement
of real cars.

Then after accomplishing this you run into the problem of how our layouts aren't actual scale
models, in fact most don't even approach being scale. Most are so drastically foreshortened that a
1:1 freight car's dynamics when scaled down acting under the forces of momentum would roll much
farther than most of our sidings and yards are long. A freight taking a mile to stop would take how
many dozen laps of most of our layouts to achieve that? That's if you don't have a point to point,
in that case it just goes over the edge because the world is flat. Here there be dragons and they
find model railroad equipment to be tasty. That's why it keeps disappearing off the edge of the
layout, never to be seen again. :-)

The more you try to mimic the prototype the more you end up demonstrating the reality that our
models are basically toys, well, expensive toys.

________________________________________________
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

Accurate Paint Schemes on the Accurail 40' Wood Boxcars?

ogdentowebercanyon

I am trying to figure out which Accurail 40' Wood sided boxcars are pretty close to accurate and which paint schemes are legitimate paint schemes? I am interested in the 4300, 4500, 7100, and the 7000 series cars. I know some manufacturers, especially Walthers, like to paint up their cars in the roadnames that generate the most revenue even if the actual road never had them. Given the Accurail car is only \$10 I have accepted the fact that there is probably some faults with the cars and the detail is not similar to Intermountain or Red Caboose so as long as they can pass for good stand-ins with accurate paint schemes then I am fine with that. I need some cars to fill out my roster and add some variety. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Jason Sanford

---------------------------------

Re: Bob's photos

Richard Hendrickson

On Aug 24, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Springfield Massachusetts, Tony... in January. Bob has several hundred
books, and chairs to sit on. And there are other excellent photo dealers
there too.
Springfield, Mass. in January? When Cocoa Beach, Fla. is an alternative? Give me, as we say, a break. The Springfield meet is all very well for those who already live in the area, but I spent three winters in New England once and I ain't goin' back.

Richard Hendrickson

Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Paul Hillman

I have this very interesting book. It's entitled, "Railroad
Construction - Theory and Practice", by Prof. Walter L. Webb, C.E.,
and published in 1903.

This book covers EVERY aspect of railroad construction and operation
known then, and very well. It's defined as, "A text-book for the use
Wiley & Sons, NY, NY. 1903

Specifically, concerning the subject of "truck bearing journals",
the following is stated, under the section discussing, "Train-
Resistance";

"(b)Journal Friction of the Axles.

This form of resistance has been studied quite extensively by means
of the measurement of the force required to turn an axle in it's
bearings under various conditions of pressure, speed, extent of
lubrication and temperature."

(Long technical text)

Then;

"Roller journals for cars have been frequently suggested, and
experiments have been made with them. It is found that they are very
effective at low velocities, greatly reducing the starting
resistance, which is very high with the ordinary forms of journals.
But the advantages disappear as the velocity increases."

Throughout this long 675 page text, I have yet to find the
term "solid bearing". (But I'm not finished reading yet!) The only
terms found are "bearing-friction", "ordinary-journals" and "journal-
friction".

An interesting point though is the discussion in 1903 of, "Roller
Journals". Until now one might think that "Timken", et al, had
invented the roller-bearing in the '30's or '40's, but these old
boys were working on it like 30+ years earlier??

I'd think, that when the final advent of the roller-bearing came
into more popular being, that the term, "bearing-friction" was
swapped for "friction-bearing" in order to differentiate between the
two different approaches of starting-friction-reduction concepts. I
also don't think it would be erroneous for the RR men to pick up on
the change of terms themselves, either.

(I remember, in the '50's, the caboose-crews having to put their
feet up against the walls, or something, in order to brace for the
coming "jerk" when train-slack would be taken up because of the
engineer trying to get the whole train going because of high
starting resistance?) I would think that the RR men knew what terms
they'd chosen to use correctly.

Paul Hillman

Re: Bob's photos

Tim O'Connor

He suspected they were scanning them or using them for a modeling
project and returning the photos when the project was completed.
Several photo sellers have reported this. It's a shame that a few
take advantage of dealers, and it cuts off mail ordering for everyone.
But I suppose it just makes one more reason ya gotta go to Cocoa Beach
and Naperville <g>.
Tony Thompson
Springfield Massachusetts, Tony... in January. Bob has several hundred
books, and chairs to sit on. And there are other excellent photo dealers
there too.

Re: Stupid eBay Tricks

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>

With the high prices paid for Sunshine kits does it mean I should
auction off my Sunshine SF stock cars so I can buy the easier to
assemble IM kits?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Re: Bob's photos

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

John Golden wrote:
He said he was doing a lot of mail order business but
in the last few years a large number of people were
ordering photos and then returning them. He suspected
they were scanning them or using them for a modeling
project and returning the photos when the project was
completed.
Several photo sellers have reported this. It's a shame that a few take advantage of dealers, and it cuts off mail ordering for everyone. But I suppose it just makes one more reason ya gotta go to Cocoa Beach and Naperville <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

St. Louis RPM Meet Report

golden1014

Guys,

Just want to thank you all for your terrific support
at last weekendï¿½s 2005 St. Louis RPM meet. There were
well over 140 attendees and a great time was had by
all. About 45 guys brought models to display from G
to HO, and we counted over 841 models on display.
There were several hundred other models on display
that were for sale or vendor display (such as Al
Westerfieldï¿½s and Ted Culottaï¿½s displays) and the
grand total was well over 1000 models.

Many thanks to the team for putting on a historic
event. We think this was probably the biggest one-day
RPM meet ever. Dave Davis and I planned this thing
all yearï¿½-he's my go-to guy for practically
everything. Loren Casey ran the clinics. David Jobe
helped make the flyers and advertised heavily. And
special thanks this year to Brad Joseph for opening
his home and layout for the social/operating session.
We managed to jam 35 guys into Bradï¿½s basement and
overwhelm his air conditioner, but the heat added an
extra touch of prototypical realism for operators on

Special thanks also to Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider for
contributing 120 copies of RP Cyc #1 as gifts for the
attendees. What other modeling event could you attend
where you pay \$10 to get in but get a \$29.00 book for
free? This was a wonderful and generous thing to
do--thanks guys!

Notable names in attendance included John Welther, Ted
Culotta, Chet French, Dan Kohlberg, Clark Propst, Vic
Smith, Ed DeRouin, Brian McQuitty, Mike Dudley, Ben
Hom, Andy Weusthof, the aforementioned Ed Hawkins and
Pat Wider, plus many, many others. Notable names from
industry included John Hitzeman (AMB) Bob Liljestrand
(Bobï¿½s Photos), Ted Schnepf (Rails Unlimited) and Al &
Patricia Westerfield, John ï¿½Wildmanï¿½ Lee (Badger). In
addition, Perry Lambert--a terrific ATSF modeler and
FreeMo expert--came down from Kansas and gave a great,
impromptu FreeMo presentation. Great job, Terry.

We got great participation from area historical
societies. Unfortunately the MP HS was a no-show, but
the CNW and Terminal RR Association guys were very
active, and the Central of Georgia team--led by Allen
Tuten and Todd Horton--were the talk of the town. Todd
and Allen are great guys and we had a lot of laughs.

Photos? I mananged to take about 60 photos and will
post them on my PBase site as soon as possible. I
didnï¿½t have time to take many model shots, so if you
have model photos from the meet that youï¿½d like me to
post, please send them along and Iï¿½d be happy to post
them with your credits. My wife Kristina worked the
door, and-ï¿½just like last year-ï¿½reported quite a few
funny stories. Iï¿½ll post some of her stories on PBase
along with the photos.

Whatï¿½s on for next year? Well, Dave and I are already
planning to put on a third annual meet next August.
Everybody likes mid-August and we agree that an August
meet seems to kick off the modeling/meeting
season...although we all know that real RPM-ers donï¿½t
take summer off. Weï¿½re going to look into a slightly
bigger room, but intend to limit the vendors again
while trying to max out on historical society and
attendee participation. After all, this is a modeler's
meet--not a train show.

I havenï¿½t debriefed with all the vendors yet, but
everyone Iï¿½ve talked to said they were 20-25% ahead of
last year and several big names have already committed
to attend a third annual event around the same time
next year. For now, weï¿½re going to continue with a
one-day event to keep things simple. Also, I thought
the night-before-RPM social was a big plus and weï¿½ll
keep that on the agenda too. If you attended and have
some thoughts or criticisms or ideas to pass along,
please drop me a line at Golden1014@yahoo.com.

Sorry for the delay with this report but I was wiped
out on Sunday and was in New Jersey Monday and Tuesday
for work.

Thanks again to everyone.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL
http://www.pbase.com/golden1014

2nd Annual St. Louis Railroad Prototype Modeler's Meet
August 20th, 2005
Collinsville, IL
Contact: John Golden, Golden1014@yahoo.com

Re: Bob's photos

golden1014

Gentlemen,

Louis this past weekend. I don't like speaking for
Bob, but since he doesn't have e-mail I'll pass along

He said he was doing a lot of mail order business but
in the last few years a large number of people were
ordering photos and then returning them. He suspected
they were scanning them or using them for a modeling
project and returning the photos when the project was
completed. He also said it's very difficult and
time-consuming for him to re-stock photos since he has
an entire warehouse full of photos, and is getting
away from offering refunds, period. Frankly--in my
opinion--people in this niche business should really
know what they're buying anyway. He said he's only
providing photos by mail to people he knows, or people
he can trust.

Bob is a great asset for us modelers and historians,
and we need to take care of him. He's a great guy and
goes out of his way--literally, to dozens of
meets/shows a year--to provide us a great product.
BTW, he keeps his vast inventory in a bank and makes
frequent withdrawals to send to his printing teams.
Very interesting operation. He also recently bought
several large collections--40K+ photos, slides, and
negatives.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL
http://www.pbase.com/golden1014

2nd Annual St. Louis Railroad Prototype Modeler's Meet
August 20th, 2005
Collinsville, IL
Contact: John Golden, Golden1014@yahoo.com

Re: Milwaukee Road double door 40' RibSide boxcars

Schuyler Larrabee

Behalf Of william darnaby
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:32 PM

FWIW, the brake step appears to
have holes in it similar to Morton but I don't trust it to guide me.
That brake step looks lots better if sanded down in thickness and holes drilled out. Don't have to
do much with the thickness as the edge of the step should have a stiffening rim.

SGL

Re: dutch drop

ljack70117@...

Some times you only have one switch and it is a trailing point switch. Or you can keep it on the wrong end of your engine and "foot board" it until you find a run around track.
It was fronded upon by the RRs.
On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 07:34 PM, Ned Carey wrote:

Now for the fun and games. A "DUTCH drop". You want to get the car to
the other end of your engine but you have a trailing point switch.
Why would you even want to do a "dutch drop"?

The goal is to get the car to the other end of the engine. What reasons
would there be to do that other than to switch a facing point switch. If you
are going to do a facing point move, why not just do the regular drop?

Ned
Thank you
Larry Jackman
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?

Re: Stupid eBay Tricks

Paul Lyons

Jared, Just remember you can omly build accurate SINGLE deck cars from the IM
kit. IM also compromised some detailing, particularly the end ladders. I have
built 3 IM kits and I am not selling my Sunshines. The one I have on eBay
right now is because I bought the same kit twice-Dah!
Paul Lyons

Re: dutch drop

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>

Now for the fun and games. A "DUTCH drop". You want to get the car to
the other end of your engine but you have a trailing point switch.
Why would you even want to do a "dutch drop"?

The goal is to get the car to the other end of the engine. What reasons would there be to do that other than to switch a facing point switch. If you are going to do a facing point move, why not just do the regular drop?

Ned

Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Paul Hillman

Several years back in Model Railroader, there was an article about a hump-yard that was operated by compressed air to slow-down the cars on their descent. It was quite an elaborate and working system. I'm thinking that it was the "Glencoe Skokie RR" maybe?? I'd have to research my old MR's.

Paul Hillman

----- Original Message -----
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

I remember a story or proposal by someone to use small jets of compressed
air located between the rails to keep the cars moving once they had been
"kicked". Of course, this may have been one of MR's "April Fool" stories.
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones III" <tomtherailnut@cox.net<mailto:tomtherailnut@cox.net>>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

> No, that is what I believed a Dutch Drop was - dangerous, illegal, and
> really really impossible to do with a model that comes to a stop within
> inches of becoming unpowered. But, any drop, kick, or running a car down
> the
> hump is pretty much impossible due to the lack of momentum in our models,
> and was the thrust of the thread.
>

Prototype Modelers Meet in SoCal

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>

Folks;

For any of you that live in southern California, or want to visit for a
that represents ALL railroads, not just western ones, and the focus is
on the models, some proto-oriented clinics, and more models! There is
some astounding modeling being done by various folks out here, that
doesn't necessarily get shown outside the area. See below:

____________________________________________________________________

Western Prototype Modelers 16th Annual Meet, Sunday October 9, 2005

The west coast's oldest & largest gathering for prototype modelers

Model Display: WPM is expanding by 50% in 2005 and will have 6000 sq.

ft. of display space for layouts, dioramas and models! Last year over
135 modelers participated in WPM, displaying over 700 models.

See our website for photos from past WPM events. WPM 2005 will include
both HO scale and N Scale "Free-mo" modular displays.

Bring your modeling projects, finished, or "in the works".

Share

ideas & techniques with fellow modelers; meet new friends.

WPM welcomes modelers of all roads, all scales and eras!

2005 Clinics/Seminars:

Ken Edmier: modeling & detailing ACF Centerfow 3-Bay and 4-Bay Covered
Hoppers Elden Gatwood: Features of, and modeling tank cars built before
1960 Eric Goodman: (BNSF Intermodal Ramp Mgr.) Modern Intermodal
operations Mike Rose: Modeling and Weathering Bridge Abutments Harry
Wong & Paul Ellis: Features of and modeling SP Tunnel Motors

Exhibitors: Manufacturers, photographers and publishers will participate
in WPM.

(Exhibitors: pre-registration is required, contact WPM at the phone
number below.)

La Habra Community Center: 101 W. La Habra Blvd. La Habra CA WPM Meet
admission: \$15.00, or \$12.00 if you bring models to display.

Admission desk opens at 8:30am, model display area opens 9:00am, and
seminars run from 10:00am - 5:00pm. Raffle drawings at 12:00 noon and
5:00pm. This year's event has been extended and runs through 7pm!

Updated info on speakers, map, program & schedule:

www.WesternPrototypeModelers.org

Write: info@WesternPrototypeModelers.org or call Tim Costello at 714-

832-8696

Raffle prizes donated by hobby retailers, publishers & model
manufacturers

________________________________________________________________________
_____________

I hope to see you there!

Elden Gatwood

Western Prototype Modelers Meet (WPM)

dh30973 <76523.1060@...>

Western Prototype Modelers 16th Annual Meet,
Sunday October 9, 2005

The west coast's oldest & largest gathering for prototype modelers

Model Display: WPM is expanding by 50% in 2005 and will have 6000 sq.
ft. of display space for layouts, dioramas and models! Last year
over 135 modelers participated in WPM, displaying over 700 models.
See our website for photos from past WPM events. WPM 2005 will
include both HO scale and N Scale "Free-mo" modular displays.

Bring your modeling projects, finished, or "in the works". Share
ideas & techniques with fellow modelers; meet new friends.

WPM welcomes modelers of all roads, all scales and eras!

2005 Clinics/Seminars:
Ken Edmier: modeling & detailing ACF Centerfow 3-Bay and 4-Bay
Covered Hoppers
Elden Gatwood: Features of, and modeling tank cars built before 1960
Eric Goodman: (BNSF Intermodal Ramp Mgr.) Modern Intermodal
operations
Mike Rose: Modeling and Weathering Bridge Abutments
Harry Wong & Paul Ellis: Features of and modeling SP Tunnel Motors

Exhibitors: Manufacturers, photographers and publishers will
participate in WPM.
(Exhibitors: pre-registration is required, contact WPM at the phone
number below.)

La Habra Community Center: 101 W. La Habra Blvd. La Habra CA
WPM Meet admission: \$15.00, or \$12.00 if you bring models to display.

Admission desk opens at 8:30am, model display area opens 9:00am, and
seminars run from 10:00am - 5:00pm. Raffle drawings at 12:00 noon and
5:00pm. This year's event has been extended and runs through 7pm!

Updated info on speakers, map, program & schedule:
www.WesternPrototypeModelers.org
Write: info@WesternPrototypeModelers.org or call Tim Costello at 714-
832-8696

Raffle prizes donated by hobby retailers, publishers & model
manufacturers

----
Dave Hussey

Re: Milwaukee Road double door 40' RibSide boxcars

Bill Darnaby

Thanks, Richard.

Bill Darnaby

Bill, I have three photos of these cars with steel running boards in
which the running boards are visible, and in all cases they appear to
be Apex.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: Grand Trunk Western Paint & Lettering

PBowers <waiting@...>

That was all part of CN's "new image" starting in 1961. The use of blue came several years later.
Peter

At 01:27 PM 8/24/05, you wrote:

Did GTW start using the large "GT" herald in place of the maple leaf during the steam era or post-1960? Did this coincide with the change to blue paint, or were they separate events?
--
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Re: Milwaukee Road double door 40' RibSide boxcars

Richard Hendrickson

On Aug 24, 2005, at 10:31 AM, william darnaby wrote:

Any of you guys know what type of metal running board these cars had when so
equipped? FWIW, the brake step appears to have holes in it similar to
Morton but I don't trust it to guide me.
Bill, I have three photos of these cars with steel running boards in which the running boards are visible, and in all cases they appear to be Apex.

Richard Hendrickson

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